southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'm going to say that Biggio and Morris make it this year. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,6446066.story By Phil Rogers, Tribune reporter 11:00 a.m. CST, November 28, 2012 Baseball's Hall of Fame ballot has been released, and it is sure to generate a lot of discussion between now and Jan. 9, when the election results will be announced. Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, arguably one of the three greatest hitters ever and one of the top 10 pitchers, are first-timers on the ballot along with former Cubs slugger Sammy Sosa, who is among the career leaders in home runs (609, eighth) and strikeouts (2306, third). They join holdovers Rafael Palmeiro and Mark McGwire on the list of players who probably would be Hall of Famers if not for their ties to performance-enhancing drugs. The other first-timers include Craig Biggio, who retired with 3,060 hits; Mike Piazza, the all-time leader for home runs by a catcher; Curt Schilling and Kenny Lofton. The 14 holdovers on the ballot are led by Jack Morris, who finished only 48 votes short of election last year, receiving 66.7 percent of the ballot. Seventy-five percent is needed for election. Jeff Bagwell and Lee Smith also received more than 50 percent of the vote a year ago, followed by Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff and Larry Walker. McGwire received only 19.5 percent of the vote, and Palmeiro received even less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 The full ballot BBWAA ballot Sandy Alomar Jr. 1988-2007 1st Jeff Bagwell 1991-2005 3rd Craig Biggio 1988-2007 1st Barry Bonds 1986-2007 1st Jeff Cirillo 1994-2007 1st Royce Clayton 1991-2007 1st Roger Clemens 1984-2007 1st Jeff Conine 1990, 1992-2007 1st Steve Finley 1989-2007 1st Julio Franco 1982-94, 1996-97, 1999, 2001-07 1st Shawn Green 1993-2007 1st Roberto Hernandez 1991-2007 1st Ryan Klesko 1992-2007 1st Kenny Lofton 1991-2007 1st Edgar Martinez 1987-2004 4th Don Mattingly 1982-95 13th Fred McGriff 1986-2004 4th Mark McGwire 1986-2001 7th Jose Mesa 1987, 1990-2007 1st Jack Morris 1977-94 14th Dale Murphy 1976-93 15th Rafael Palmeiro 1986-2005 3rd Mike Piazza 1992-2007 1st Tim Raines 1979-2002 6th Reggie Sanders 1991-2007 1st Curt Schilling 1988-2007 1st Aaron Sele 1993-2007 1st Lee Smith 1980-97 11th Sammy Sosa 1988-2005, 2007 1st Mike Stanton 1989-2007 1st Alan Trammell 1977-96 12th Larry Walker 1989-2005 3rd Todd Walker 1996-2007 1st David Wells 1987-2007 1st Rondell White 1996-2007 1st Bernie Williams 1991-2006 2nd Woody Williams 1993-2007 1st Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I want Tim Raines and Lee Smith to get in. #wishfulthinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I predict we see our first player with 500+ home runs not be elected and removed from the ballot. It's too strong and deep for Palmeiro to garner much of a vote with his tarnished reputation and subsequent departure from the game. I think McGwire gets more than 25% of the vote this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Barry Bonds better get in at some point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (Brian @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 11:43 AM) I want Tim Raines and Lee Smith to get in. #wishfulthinking That is exactly who I would vote for this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (Brian @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 11:43 AM) I want Tim Raines and Lee Smith to get in. #wishfulthinking Tim Raines absolutely deserves to be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:09 PM) Barry Bonds better get in at some point “Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'd vote for Raines, Biggio and Smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 My ballot would be... Craig Biggio Edgar Martinez Jack Morris Dale Murphy Mike Piazza Tim Raines Or is there a max of 5 votes? If so, I'd have to drop either Martinez or Murphy, probably Martinez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Have there ever been any PED rumors or evidence about Piazza, that anyone knows of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:36 PM) Have there ever been any PED rumors or evidence about Piazza, that anyone knows of? Rumors, yes. Evidence, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:35 PM) My ballot would be... Craig Biggio Edgar Martinez Jack Morris Dale Murphy Mike Piazza Tim Raines Or is there a max of 5 votes? If so, I'd have to drop either Martinez or Murphy, probably Martinez. 10 votes max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 They should acknowledge the 90's/early 00's were the wild west. The game itself was juiced. I'd put in guys like Clemens and Bonds, but if I felt like juicing got a player to big numbers like Sheffield, Sosa, and McGwire I wouldn't vote for them. It's a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:36 PM) Have there ever been any PED rumors or evidence about Piazza, that anyone knows of? It's pretty damn obvious that Piazza is a roider. I think there is the same amount evidence for him as there is for Sosa though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:42 PM) It's pretty damn obvious that Piazza is a roider. I think there is the same amount evidence for him as there is for Sosa though. Hm. I'm not so sure. Piazza's power numbers curve doesn't show much of any sudden spike or alteration, like with Sosa's. I also don't recall Piazza suddenly showing up after one offseason with 30 pounds of extra muscle. So if we're talking purely circumstantial, I see nothing here. But if there are any pieces of evidence out there, any witnesses or the like, that's different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:50 PM) Hm. I'm not so sure. Piazza's power numbers curve doesn't show much of any sudden spike or alteration, like with Sosa's. I also don't recall Piazza suddenly showing up after one offseason with 30 pounds of extra muscle. So if we're talking purely circumstantial, I see nothing here. But if there are any pieces of evidence out there, any witnesses or the like, that's different. The went from being a 62nd round draft pick, only because he was related to someone in the Dodgers organization, to Hall of Fame stats. If you look at his minor league numbers, you can see a tell-tale hop in power from 1990 to 1991 http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=piazza001mic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:50 PM) Hm. I'm not so sure. Piazza's power numbers curve doesn't show much of any sudden spike or alteration, like with Sosa's. I also don't recall Piazza suddenly showing up after one offseason with 30 pounds of extra muscle. So if we're talking purely circumstantial, I see nothing here. But if there are any pieces of evidence out there, any witnesses or the like, that's different. A 62nd round pick during the steroid era ends up hitting more home runs than any other catcher in history. That's all I need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:53 PM) The went from being a 62nd round draft pick, only because he was related to someone in the Dodgers organization, to Hall of Fame stats. If you look at his minor league numbers, you can see a tell-tale hop in power from 1990 to 1991 http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=piazza001mic I didn't look at the minor league numbers - that certainly is interesting. Just as he was repeating High A as a low round pick, soon destined for filler status, he explodes. That is somewhat incriminating. But... he also kept up the power and numbers for his entire career, and a long one at that (hard to do as a catcher). That makes it seem less likely, but still possible. QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 12:54 PM) A 62nd round pick during the steroid era ends up hitting more home runs than any other catcher in history. That's all I need to know. That means nearly nothing to me. Players are drafted wrong all the time. No way I'm going to rely on what scouts said about a kid's tools in high school to determine whether or not he was a roider years later. That's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 01:12 PM) That means nearly nothing to me. Players are drafted wrong all the time. No way I'm going to rely on what scouts said about a kid's tools in high school to determine whether or not he was a roider years later. That's ridiculous. The only reason he was drafted was as a favor to Tommy Lasorda. If you want to believe this is some great story of a passed-over kid who becomes a Hall of Famer, then go ahead. But after everything that went on in MLB in the 80s & 90s, it's pretty obvious how dirty Piazza was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 01:32 PM) The only reason he was drafted was as a favor to Tommy Lasorda. If you want to believe this is some great story of a passed-over kid who becomes a Hall of Famer, then go ahead. But after everything that went on in MLB in the 80s & 90s, it's pretty obvious how dirty Piazza was. I see nothing obvious about that at all. Baseball history is littered with players both overachieving and underachieving. Some were dirty, others weren't. For all I know, all six players I listed as who I'd vote for may have been roided up. But if there is no evidence, then I can't draw that conclusion. I can only work with what is in front of me. And scouting opinions from high schoolers is not evidence of, really, anything at all. The sudden spike in the minors means a lot more to me as evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) I see nothing obvious about that at all. Baseball history is littered with players both overachieving and underachieving. Some were dirty, others weren't. For all I know, all six players I listed as who I'd vote for may have been roided up. But if there is no evidence, then I can't draw that conclusion. I can only work with what is in front of me. And scouting opinions from high schoolers is not evidence of, really, anything at all. The sudden spike in the minors means a lot more to me as evidence. Then again, a young player in the low minors sometimes has a tendency to just get stronger. They just grow from being a kid to being a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) I see nothing obvious about that at all. Baseball history is littered with players both overachieving and underachieving. Some were dirty, others weren't. For all I know, all six players I listed as who I'd vote for may have been roided up. But if there is no evidence, then I can't draw that conclusion. I can only work with what is in front of me. And scouting opinions from high schoolers is not evidence of, really, anything at all. The sudden spike in the minors means a lot more to me as evidence. All the evidence is right in front of you though. In an era when a high percentage of players were on steroids and all started breaking home run records, a muscular catcher comes from nowhere to suddenly be the best power catcher in the history of the game. That's not even bringing up some of the allegations against him. The andro use when he was young, the sudden 20-pound muscle gain in the middle of his career, the back acne everyone mentions. If you really think Piazza is clean, then IMO you have to say Sosa is clean, because there is the exact same amount of "evidence" for both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) All the evidence is right in front of you though. In an era when a high percentage of players were on steroids and all started breaking home run records, a muscular catcher comes from nowhere to suddenly be the best power catcher in the history of the game. That's not even bringing up some of the allegations against him. The andro use when he was young, the sudden 20-pound muscle gain in the middle of his career, the back acne everyone mentions. If you really think Piazza is clean, then IMO you have to say Sosa is clean, because there is the exact same amount of "evidence" for both of them. A couple things are different though...with Sosa, his power spike came mid-career...whereas a power spike for a kid in the minors is much more normal...and we also have good characterizations of Sosa's body type before and after as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 02:08 PM) A couple things are different though...with Sosa, his power spike came mid-career...whereas a power spike for a kid in the minors is much more normal...and we also have good characterizations of Sosa's body type before and after as well. Piazza did the have the sudden power upswing from 1990 to 1991, which could have been an obvious beginning of his steroid use. He went from barely slugging .400 to suddenly reaching .550 & higher. I don't know what he looked like then, but that's a pretty damn big jump for a nobody without the help of any chemical assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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