2013 HOF ballot out, includes Sosa, Clemens, Bonds

[RockRaines]

Once again Tim Raines not getting in is a f***ing travesty. One of the top leadoff hitters of all time.

[southsider2k5]

These are the writers who made their ballots public.

 

http://bbwaa.com/13-hof-ballots/

[knightni]

I wouldn't have called him a HOFer, but I do think he earned more consideration than he got.

 

 

A- 17 seasons - .299BA 1528R 2428H 383D 116T 622SB 945BB .372OBP

 

B - 17 seasons - .296BA 1374R 2295H 371D 109T 777SB 1134BB .385OBP

 

A is

Lofton

 

B is

Raines

[southsider2k5]

123 OPS+ for Raines, 107 for Lofton. The difference in relative offensive levels for the generations is important. It is also what makes comparisons tough from different eras.

[knightni]

123 OPS+ for Raines, 107 for Lofton. The difference in relative offensive levels for the generations is important. It is also what makes comparisons tough from different eras.

Walks and a little more power is all it is.

 

Lofton out performed Raines in their first 17 years in everything else.

 

Raines did play longer though (23 years).

[RockRaines]

Walks and a little more power is all it is.

 

Lofton out performed Raines in their first 17 years in everything else.

 

Raines did play longer though (23 years).

So you are saying walks and power are NOT important?

 

Its difficult to name many lead off hitters if any better than Raines not named Rickey Henderson.

Edited January 9, 2013 by RockRaines

[witesoxfan]

These percentages tell me that Bonds and Clemens get in eventually. Personally, this is more of an indictment on Sammy Sosa. 12.5% for a guy who never test positive and never admitted to it? Won an MVP, multiple All-Star appearances, 600+ home runs, only guy to hit 60+ homers in 3 seasons. There are about 1 million red flags, and apparently the BBWAA has taken those quite seriously and they have essentially stated that, without steroids, Sosa is nowhere near a Hall of Famer.

[chw42]

These are the writers who made their ballots public.

 

http://bbwaa.com/13-hof-ballots/

 

Who the hell designed that website? It looks like it's from 1998.

[chw42]

These percentages tell me that Bonds and Clemens get in eventually. Personally, this is more of an indictment on Sammy Sosa. 12.5% for a guy who never test positive and never admitted to it? Won an MVP, multiple All-Star appearances, 600+ home runs, only guy to hit 60+ homers in 3 seasons. There are about 1 million red flags, and apparently the BBWAA has taken those quite seriously and they have essentially stated that, without steroids, Sosa is nowhere near a Hall of Famer.

 

Even with steroids, Sosa isn't a sure-fire hall of famer.

[Balta1701]

These percentages tell me that Bonds and Clemens get in eventually. Personally, this is more of an indictment on Sammy Sosa. 12.5% for a guy who never test positive and never admitted to it? Won an MVP, multiple All-Star appearances, 600+ home runs, only guy to hit 60+ homers in 3 seasons. There are about 1 million red flags, and apparently the BBWAA has taken those quite seriously and they have essentially stated that, without steroids, Sosa is nowhere near a Hall of Famer.

Sosa was reported to have tested positive in the 2003 testing round.

[ptatc]

These percentages tell me that Bonds and Clemens get in eventually. Personally, this is more of an indictment on Sammy Sosa. 12.5% for a guy who never test positive and never admitted to it? Won an MVP, multiple All-Star appearances, 600+ home runs, only guy to hit 60+ homers in 3 seasons. There are about 1 million red flags, and apparently the BBWAA has taken those quite seriously and they have essentially stated that, without steroids, Sosa is nowhere near a Hall of Famer.

He was caught with syringes while in the DR and some were also found in his car when Manny Alexander had it.

[southsider2k5]

In case anyone out there needs their Sosa fix...

 

http://pinterest.com/sammysosamr609/pins/

[Middle Buffalo]

My 2cents:

 

1. I am not sure how I feel about Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, etc as HOF players. I don't mind them being on the ballot and waiting while the case is argued.

 

2. Baseball writers are as guilty as anyone for the "epidemic" of steroids. There's no way PEDs were as prevalent as some players have suggested, and everyday beat writers weren't aware of it. They chose to ignore it. There's always a player or two who leaks info to the media, and it happened in this case also. Writers could have written the story, but they weren't brave enough to do it. It could have been done without naming names, also. They could have just used statistical evidence and let the public decide. Instead, they were busy writing stories about shrinking ballparks, tighter winding of the baseball, etc.

 

3. Whenever we compare guys like Raines and Lofton, someone will say "different eras." Wouldn't it actually be harder to have success if you were playing clean in the PED era?

 

4. Mark McGwire - skinny kid. Mark McGwire, skinny kid hit 49 HRs as a rookie. I still believe he 'roided. I also believe he intentionally left andro (legal supplement at the time) in his locker so he could use that as and excuse for size/power increase.

 

5. I always hated the argument that steroids don't make you able to hit the ball. That's usually the jock rebuttal. PEDs helped them hit the ball farther. Warning track flyouts became 5th row homeruns. Goes hand in hand with the stories of how hard guys like Clemens and Bonds worked out. Isn't recovery one of the benefits of PEDs - making longer/harder workouts possible? Bonds, by the way, is listed as 6'1"/185 lbs in baseball reference.

 

6. Whenever someone says that they don't know if they would have voted for Sammy or Palmeiro (and I've heard that this week) even if there wasn't a cloud of suspicion, I think that writer should have their vote taken away. Sammy and Palmeiro's lifetime numbers are pretty good historically. One guy hit 600+ HRs, and the other had 550+ and more than 3000 hits. If Palmeiro put up his numbers in NY, we'd never stop hearing about him. http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/sco...almera01:Rafael Palmeiro&st=career&compage=&age= Hell, he was so good that he won a Gold Glove as a DH.

 

7. The argument is always made that Clemens and Bonds were HOF before they started taking PEDs. Depends when they started. If you believe the reports, Bonds started after the 1998 season. How do we know he didn't start in 1993 (or sooner) when he moved to SF? Isn't that the home of BALCO? Who knows for sure? But, if you go by the 1998 start date, sure he was a HOF player. He still cheated for about a third of his career. Clemens is a little more tricky. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero02.shtml He was falling apart physically when he left Boston. By most accounts, he started using around the time he went to Toronto. Look at his stats. As soon as he arrived in Toronto, he got healthy and became a great pitcher again. He left Boston at 33 with a 192-111 record, and he was fading fast. Those are not HOF numbers. How many wins would he have ended up with? 240? Is 240-150 a HOF record? It wouldn't have been based on the 300 W/500 HR markers that were guarantees before the steroid era. From age 34 on (when he reported to Toronto), Clemens went 162-73.

 

8. Eye test - Piazza juiced. He had improbable power to all fields, and if you work backwards you could easily put him on the list of guys who cheated. If he or any other player wasn't a cheater but stayed silent, too bad for them. Their silence contributed to the inability to statistically compare players numbers through the history of MLB.

 

9. Ultimately, PED abuse led to higher salaries because agents negotiated tainted statistics vs. the historic numbers. So, if a player is negotiating a contract and he has numbers that compare with guys in the HOF, they were awarded higher salaries. Higher salaries = higher ticket prices = Avg. Joe fan being priced out of the game. I don't feel sorry that they won't be able to sign HOF on a autograph that they sell in the future. These guys got rich while they were pricing me out of the game.

 

10. I used to think Pete Rose should be in the HOF because he bet after he played. Now I don't think so. He knew he was breaking the rules, and he thought he was above the law. If he serves as a cautionary tale, all the better.

 

11. This year is kind of the perfect storm of PED abusers being eligible at the same time. Next year Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas are eligible. Randy Johnson, Smoltz, and Pedro are the season after. Griffey the following season. Those guys and players like Raines, etc who are close will make for some decent classes. It will get interesting again in 2017 when Pudge Rodriguez, Manny, and Vlad Guerrero are 1st time eligibles.

 

12. Finally, I don't know what it says about me that I love both MLB and NFL, and I'm sure that PED use in football is equal to, and probably greater than, what it is in baseball, and I don't really care that football players cheat. To me, it's all about loving the numbers of baseball historically and being able to say that Ken Griffey, Jr. is doing something that hasn't been done since Willie Mays, or Randy Johnson compares favorably to Bob Feller. It put players in context for me historically. I guess, in a way, Barry Bonds cheating to surpass Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron's power numbers just goes to show haow great they were, but it bothers me to see his name next to, actually above, their names.

[Texsox]

One of the best written posts I've read in a while. Sure beats three pages of "witty one-liners" and insults.

[NorthSideSox72]

My 2cents:

 

1. I am not sure how I feel about Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, etc as HOF players. I don't mind them being on the ballot and waiting while the case is argued.

 

2. Baseball writers are as guilty as anyone for the "epidemic" of steroids. There's no way PEDs were as prevalent as some players have suggested, and everyday beat writers weren't aware of it. They chose to ignore it. There's always a player or two who leaks info to the media, and it happened in this case also. Writers could have written the story, but they weren't brave enough to do it. It could have been done without naming names, also. They could have just used statistical evidence and let the public decide. Instead, they were busy writing stories about shrinking ballparks, tighter winding of the baseball, etc.

 

3. Whenever we compare guys like Raines and Lofton, someone will say "different eras." Wouldn't it actually be harder to have success if you were playing clean in the PED era?

 

4. Mark McGwire - skinny kid. Mark McGwire, skinny kid hit 49 HRs as a rookie. I still believe he 'roided. I also believe he intentionally left andro (legal supplement at the time) in his locker so he could use that as and excuse for size/power increase.

 

5. I always hated the argument that steroids don't make you able to hit the ball. That's usually the jock rebuttal. PEDs helped them hit the ball farther. Warning track flyouts became 5th row homeruns. Goes hand in hand with the stories of how hard guys like Clemens and Bonds worked out. Isn't recovery one of the benefits of PEDs - making longer/harder workouts possible? Bonds, by the way, is listed as 6'1"/185 lbs in baseball reference.

 

6. Whenever someone says that they don't know if they would have voted for Sammy or Palmeiro (and I've heard that this week) even if there wasn't a cloud of suspicion, I think that writer should have their vote taken away. Sammy and Palmeiro's lifetime numbers are pretty good historically. One guy hit 600+ HRs, and the other had 550+ and more than 3000 hits. If Palmeiro put up his numbers in NY, we'd never stop hearing about him. http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/sco...almera01:Rafael Palmeiro&st=career&compage=&age= Hell, he was so good that he won a Gold Glove as a DH.

 

7. The argument is always made that Clemens and Bonds were HOF before they started taking PEDs. Depends when they started. If you believe the reports, Bonds started after the 1998 season. How do we know he didn't start in 1993 (or sooner) when he moved to SF? Isn't that the home of BALCO? Who knows for sure? But, if you go by the 1998 start date, sure he was a HOF player. He still cheated for about a third of his career. Clemens is a little more tricky. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero02.shtml He was falling apart physically when he left Boston. By most accounts, he started using around the time he went to Toronto. Look at his stats. As soon as he arrived in Toronto, he got healthy and became a great pitcher again. He left Boston at 33 with a 192-111 record, and he was fading fast. Those are not HOF numbers. How many wins would he have ended up with? 240? Is 240-150 a HOF record? It wouldn't have been based on the 300 W/500 HR markers that were guarantees before the steroid era. From age 34 on (when he reported to Toronto), Clemens went 162-73.

 

8. Eye test - Piazza juiced. He had improbable power to all fields, and if you work backwards you could easily put him on the list of guys who cheated. If he or any other player wasn't a cheater but stayed silent, too bad for them. Their silence contributed to the inability to statistically compare players numbers through the history of MLB.

 

9. Ultimately, PED abuse led to higher salaries because agents negotiated tainted statistics vs. the historic numbers. So, if a player is negotiating a contract and he has numbers that compare with guys in the HOF, they were awarded higher salaries. Higher salaries = higher ticket prices = Avg. Joe fan being priced out of the game. I don't feel sorry that they won't be able to sign HOF on a autograph that they sell in the future. These guys got rich while they were pricing me out of the game.

 

10. I used to think Pete Rose should be in the HOF because he bet after he played. Now I don't think so. He knew he was breaking the rules, and he thought he was above the law. If he serves as a cautionary tale, all the better.

 

11. This year is kind of the perfect storm of PED abusers being eligible at the same time. Next year Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas are eligible. Randy Johnson, Smoltz, and Pedro are the season after. Griffey the following season. Those guys and players like Raines, etc who are close will make for some decent classes. It will get interesting again in 2017 when Pudge Rodriguez, Manny, and Vlad Guerrero are 1st time eligibles.

 

12. Finally, I don't know what it says about me that I love both MLB and NFL, and I'm sure that PED use in football is equal to, and probably greater than, what it is in baseball, and I don't really care that football players cheat. To me, it's all about loving the numbers of baseball historically and being able to say that Ken Griffey, Jr. is doing something that hasn't been done since Willie Mays, or Randy Johnson compares favorably to Bob Feller. It put players in context for me historically. I guess, in a way, Barry Bonds cheating to surpass Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron's power numbers just goes to show haow great they were, but it bothers me to see his name next to, actually above, their names.

 

I don't agree with all of your points, but this is a great post.

 

[Balta1701]

Mike Piazza on the Daily Show tonight, hawking a book apparently. (Stewart is a Mets fan)