Balta1701 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 03:25 PM) Piazza did the have the sudden power upswing from 1990 to 1991, which could have been an obvious beginning of his steroid use. He went from barely slugging .400 to suddenly reaching .550 & higher. I don't know what he looked like then, but that's a pretty damn big jump for a nobody without the help of any chemical assistance. He's also a 21 year old in high-A ball in 1990, and a 22 year old repeating high-A ball in 1991. A 22 year old repeating high-A ball ought to have a big power surge if he has some talent. Not conclusive again...but since it's all we have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) He's also a 21 year old in high-A ball in 1990, and a 22 year old repeating high-A ball in 1991. A 22 year old repeating high-A ball ought to have a big power surge if he has some talent. Not conclusive again...but since it's all we have... A guy who was only drafted as a favor to a friend suddenly finds the "talent" to become the best power hitting catcher in the history of the sport? And I can't look past the evidence of blantant PED use throughout all levels of baseball during that era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 02:33 PM) A guy who was only drafted as a favor to a friend suddenly finds the "talent" to become the best power hitting catcher in the history of the sport? And I can't look past the evidence of blantant PED use throughout all levels of baseball during that era. Baseball brought the self-doubt on itself by acting like nothing was happening for decades. The presumption of innocent is gone, and not deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Tim Raines>Sammy Sosa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 02:37 PM) Tim Raines>Sammy Sosa And they both played the game on drugs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 03:33 PM) A guy who was only drafted as a favor to a friend suddenly finds the "talent" to become the best power hitting catcher in the history of the sport? And I can't look past the evidence of blantant PED use throughout all levels of baseball during that era. it wouldn't be the first time that a guy had come out of no where to become an all time great...and you also have the other factors of ballparks, pitching quality feeding in to the standard of "Best at position x of all time". But yes, 2k5 is right...I can't prove he was clean, and there's every reason to think he wasn't, because you can't prove anyone was clean for that time. Except #35. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Balta pretty much covers it for me, as far as why the power spike in the minors is maybe something, but all the pedigree stuff is pretty useless information. And even the minor league spike isn't a dead giveaway or anything. QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 01:57 PM) That's not even bringing up some of the allegations against him. The andro use when he was young, the sudden 20-pound muscle gain in the middle of his career, the back acne everyone mentions. If you really think Piazza is clean, then IMO you have to say Sosa is clean, because there is the exact same amount of "evidence" for both of them. Now, if you are saying there are people who claim he used andro, or had physical changes like you describe, then that is something worth considering. I haven't seen or heard of those, and I didn't see him suddenly bulk up either - and I was a burgeoning baseball fan when his career started, so I did watch him quite a few times. The evidence for Sosa is not at all the same as for Piazza. The only commonality is that neither was ever caught with a test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 02:47 PM) Balta pretty much covers it for me, as far as why the power spike in the minors is maybe something, but all the pedigree stuff is pretty useless information. And even the minor league spike isn't a dead giveaway or anything. Now, if you are saying there are people who claim he used andro, or had physical changes like you describe, then that is something worth considering. I haven't seen or heard of those, and I didn't see him suddenly bulk up either - and I was a burgeoning baseball fan when his career started, so I did watch him quite a few times. The evidence for Sosa is not at all the same as for Piazza. The only commonality is that neither was ever caught with a test. He admitted that he used andro when he was younger during his career, but it didn't do enough for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Piazza showed good power right away with an Iso of .176 in his first year in the minors, and he didn't become a good hitter for average until his 4th year in the minors. There are a ton of people in America right now who can hit the ball a really, really long ways that are between the ages of 18-22. Piazza, even as a 62nd round draft pick, proved that right away. Then the Dodgers make some adjustments to his approach, he can continue to hit for power while quickening and strengthening his approach, and suddenly he's spraying the ball all over the field. I honestly never thought Piazza was juicing. He was always a huge dude and he was always a pretty good hitter. According to Wiki, his father was also a talented baseball player but had to support a family by the age of 16. He encouraged Mike to play baseball and was given lessons by Ted Williams at the age of 12. Honestly, I don't think you can point to Piazza in 1990 and 1991 and see a jump in average and power and say "STEROIDS." There are guys who come out of nowhere all the time, and I think arguing that steroids take a guy from a nobody to a superhero is a bit over the top. I won't rule out that he used, but I wouldn't say definitively that he used either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Piazza was juicing but to use the round he was drafted in as evidence is quite ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 90% of the league was juiced up. The All-Time HR leader not being in the Hall is frankly stupid. most hits ever? not in the Hall most hrs ever? not in the Hall the Hall? pointless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 03:56 PM) 90% of the league was juiced up. The All-Time HR leader not being in the Hall is frankly stupid. most hits ever? not in the Hall most hrs ever? not in the Hall the Hall? pointless This I agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 03:56 PM) 90% of the league was juiced up. The All-Time HR leader not being in the Hall is frankly stupid. most hits ever? not in the Hall most hrs ever? not in the Hall the Hall? pointless I agree. I have no issue with Piazza in the HOF, juiced or not, as long as Bonds is in there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 ugh you guys are hilarious. Roids do not make a crappy player a hall of famer. they make a great player a hall of famer. a bad player becomes less bad. a mediocre player becomes decent. Roids do NOT take a BAD player and make them the best hitting catcher in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 03:56 PM) 90% of the league was juiced up. The All-Time HR leader not being in the Hall is frankly stupid. most hits ever? not in the Hall most hrs ever? not in the Hall the Hall? pointless As terrible as steroids were, this. Rose and Jackson not being in is incredibly stupid. And what I learned from this is that Buehrle had to be a roider. He was drafted in the 38th round after getting cut in High School. Where did the sudden talent come from? Had to be roids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 03:56 PM) 90% of the league was juiced up. The All-Time HR leader not being in the Hall is frankly stupid. most hits ever? not in the Hall most hrs ever? not in the Hall the Hall? pointless Bonds was a Hall of Famer long before he started roiding up to no end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Once the first one gets in, then this issue will gradually fade away. Bonds or Clemens will probably be the first to break that logjam and get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 02:40 PM) And they both played the game on drugs... Nobody has ever proven the crack rock makes you better!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 11:24 PM) As terrible as steroids were, this. Rose and Jackson not being in is incredibly stupid. And what I learned from this is that Buehrle had to be a roider. He was drafted in the 38th round after getting cut in High School. Where did the sudden talent come from? Had to be roids. Yes, because Buehrle suddenly became a power pitcher who was throwing 98 mph and striking 200+ guys out a season, right? Not even the same comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 29, 2012 -> 06:26 AM) Yes, because Buehrle suddenly became a power pitcher who was throwing 98 mph and striking 200+ guys out a season, right? Not even the same comparison. Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, mocking your link of draft round to success-only-by-chemical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 29, 2012 -> 06:26 AM) Yes, because Buehrle suddenly became a power pitcher who was throwing 98 mph and striking 200+ guys out a season, right? Not even the same comparison. He's too durable. Has to be roids. QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 29, 2012 -> 08:14 AM) Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, mocking your link of draft round to success-only-by-chemical. I really didn't think that needed to be explained. Guess not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Andro doesn't do s***. Compared to legitimate steroids, you're looking at maybe 5% of the gains. The fact that they outlawed it was on a technicality anyway, but yeah those guys took it when it was legal and it hardly offered a performance advantage. In all likelihood, they could have easily achieved the same gain with a tweak to their workout program or diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Nov 28, 2012 -> 11:24 PM) As terrible as steroids were, this. Rose and Jackson not being in is incredibly stupid. And what I learned from this is that Buehrle had to be a roider. He was drafted in the 38th round after getting cut in High School. Where did the sudden talent come from? Had to be roids. Rose doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. The rules of baseball said that if you gamble on the game you are gone. It was proven he gambled on the game. There is no discussion. There is discussion about the PED users. I believe it is ethically wrong (and more important medically wrong) to use them. However, there was no rule at the time against them. I wouldn't vote them in but that's more a personal view than rules of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Nov 29, 2012 -> 10:32 PM) Rose doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. The rules of baseball said that if you gamble on the game you are gone. It was proven he gambled on the game. There is no discussion. There is discussion about the PED users. I believe it is ethically wrong (and more important medically wrong) to use them. However, there was no rule at the time against them. I wouldn't vote them in but that's more a personal view than rules of the game. I'm aware it's the rules...but it's still stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Nov 29, 2012 -> 10:32 PM) Rose doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. The rules of baseball said that if you gamble on the game you are gone. It was proven he gambled on the game. There is no discussion. There is discussion about the PED users. I believe it is ethically wrong (and more important medically wrong) to use them. However, there was no rule at the time against them. I wouldn't vote them in but that's more a personal view than rules of the game. And knowing the history of baseball, you have to be a complete idiot to gamble on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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