ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 10:09 PM) so, at their worst, they are basically the same. I think that's what you asked. Well, -8 would be worse than 0.0, but not vastly different, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Rios is going to have a bad year. Dealing him now is smart. He has a pattern in his career and at times his team follows. Personally I believe and have heard he would be the first Ofer they would deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 11:17 PM) Rios is going to have a bad year. He did change his stance last year and I believe his success last year is due to that fact and working with Manto. I guess one can hope at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 11:17 PM) Rios is going to have a bad year. Dealing him now is smart. He has a pattern in his career and at times his team follows. Personally I believe and have heard he would be the first Ofer they would deal. I'm not sure it's set in stone that he will have a bad year. The history is there, but how are we so sure that this Rios is the same Rios from a few years ago? If you watched him last year, Rios seemed like a different kind of player. His performance was more consistent (go look at his monthly splits, as opposed to a year like 2010). He didn't disappear in the second half like he did in 2010. Not only that, his personality on the field and in the dugout changed. It seemed like he cared that he would have an awful at bat or that he didn't do his job correctly. Maybe he'll screw with mechanics in the off-season or get off to a bad start in 2013 and have a crappy year. Or maybe he won't. I just don't think it's that obvious that Rios will be bad next season. There are a multitude of things that have changed about him since 2011 and I don't think it's fair to judge him solely based off of his performance from 2009-2011. Edited December 13, 2012 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 11:30 PM) I'm not sure it's set in stone that he will have a bad year. The history is there, but how are we so sure that this Rios is the same Rios from a few years ago? If you watched him last year, Rios seemed like a different kind of player. His performance was more consistent (go look at his monthly splits, as opposed to a year like 2010). He didn't disappear in the second half like he did in 2010. Not only that, his personality on the field and in the dugout changed. It seemed like he cared that he would have an awful at bat or that he didn't do his job correctly. Maybe he'll screw with mechanics in the off-season or get off to a bad start in 2013 and have a crappy year. Or maybe he won't. I just don't think it's that obvious that Rios will be bad next season. There are a multitude of things that have changed about him since 2011 and I don't think it's fair to judge him solely based off of his performance from 2009-2011. That's fine, its all opinion at this point. In his career I've seen an every other year player and I think he will be hot garbage and we will wish we unloaded him. I think he's A1 on the trade table as far as OF'ers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon_44 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 12:45 AM) That's fine, its all opinion at this point. In his career I've seen an every other year player and I think he will be hot garbage and we will wish we unloaded him. I think he's A1 on the trade table as far as OF'ers As he should be. I agree that he won't touch the same numbers as last year. In fact, I don't know if it's true or not, but even his 2nd half last year, he seemed to be declining. I would love to see a Dayan/Domonic platoon and replace Rios(contract-wise) with Granderson. Then, after the year, hopefully the platoon guys are ready to step up to full-time duty if Granderson left via FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 01:43 AM) As he should be. I agree that he won't touch the same numbers as last year. In fact, I don't know if it's true or not, but even his 2nd half last year, he seemed to be declining. I would love to see a Dayan/Domonic platoon and replace Rios(contract-wise) with Granderson. Then, after the year, hopefully the platoon guys are ready to step up to full-time duty if Granderson left via FA. He had a .823 OPS in the second half and hit one more home run than he did in the first half. So yeah, his OBP an average went down a bit, but the power was still there. Not enough of a decline to be concerned IMO, considering Rios has usually struggles in the second half. Edited December 13, 2012 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 11:17 PM) Rios is going to have a bad year. Dealing him now is smart. He has a pattern in his career and at times his team follows. Personally I believe and have heard he would be the first Ofer they would deal. As well he should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 08:37 AM) As well he should be. Problem is...if I'm a team trading for him, it's the same boat AJ's in. I know his history, I know his reputation, I know the risk in trading for him. Yes he could be a major OF upgrade for my team...but he could also be a $26 million boodoggle. If a team was going to give up the kind of price it would take to get a borderline AS outfielder signed for 2 years at $26 million with an affordable third year option...that team is giving up a fairly high price to get that player, if you don't put a history on it. But if you put Alex Rios's history on there, suddenly I'm willing to give up less to get him...and if I'm the Sox, then I have to question whether I'd actually move him for less than an affordably signed OF is worth. If an OF was breaking down the door in AAA last year, then yes, I'd take less than he's worth to clear space, but that's also not the case, we're hoping that next year is when our OF reinforcements arrive. So, I'd take calls on him, but I'd be stunned if a team gave up fair value for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorkChopExpress Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 09:10 AM) So, I'd take calls on [Rios], but I'd be stunned if a team gave up fair value for him. But that's the exact problem you just laid out. What is "fair" value for him? He may have up and down years, but based on contracts being signed recently (Pagan) his isn't terrible anymore, and he showed he can still get it done at an all star level. But he's also only one year removed from his worst season ever. Then again, that was on a team where several players were having their worst years, and he made some changes in his stance that seemed to work. He is truly a box of chocolates. You can't say if he produces that you caught lightning in a bottle and if he bombs you can't say it was unexpected. Tough to put a value on that and therefore tough to trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 06:01 PM) The report had the Cubs paying $10 mill of his remaining $36 mill. I think Rios is owed 25 mill which would be similar and he's a better all around player than Soriano. The Cubs WOULDN'T be paying $10 million. They would be paying the other $26m Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS #cubs are willing to pay about $26M of soriano's $36M if they get right prospect back. seems reasonable. 30/100 last yr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 12:30 AM) I'm not sure it's set in stone that he will have a bad year. The history is there, but how are we so sure that this Rios is the same Rios from a few years ago? If you watched him last year, Rios seemed like a different kind of player. His performance was more consistent (go look at his monthly splits, as opposed to a year like 2010). He didn't disappear in the second half like he did in 2010. Not only that, his personality on the field and in the dugout changed. It seemed like he cared that he would have an awful at bat or that he didn't do his job correctly. Maybe he'll screw with mechanics in the off-season or get off to a bad start in 2013 and have a crappy year. Or maybe he won't. I just don't think it's that obvious that Rios will be bad next season. There are a multitude of things that have changed about him since 2011 and I don't think it's fair to judge him solely based off of his performance from 2009-2011. I agree with you. This time, we actually have specific changes to point to which explain why his batting and fielding improved. Rios worked with Manto to completely change his batting stance. And he moved to right field for which he is better suited and more comfortable. As long as those things don't change, I don't see why they should, Rios will have another productive year. That seems more logical than expecting Rios to under-perform because the year ends in an odd number. This said, I understand why he would be the first outfielder to be traded and I would not be opposed to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 10:05 AM) I agree with you. This time, we actually have specific changes to point to which explain why his batting and fielding improved. Rios worked with Manto to completely change his batting stance. And he moved to right field for which he is better suited and more comfortable. As long as those things don't change, I don't see why they should, Rios will have another productive year. That seems more logical than expecting Rios to under-perform because the year ends in an odd number. This said, I understand why he would be the first outfielder to be traded and I would not be opposed to it. Rios was terrible in 2009. Came back in 2010 with good numbers. Was sensational in the first half, and then 2011 happened. I think you always have to question which Alex Rios is going to show up. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if any team wants to take Dunn's or Rios' contract for nothing, if it were my decision, there would be no hesitation. They would both be gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 09:30 AM) The Cubs WOULDN'T be paying $10 million. They would be paying the other $26m Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS #cubs are willing to pay about $26M of soriano's $36M if they get right prospect back. seems reasonable. 30/100 last yr Since the trade deadline, Jon Heyman has had such a f***ing hard-on for a Soriano trade, it's weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Just wondering...a previous poster mentioned that DeAza was a better ballplayer than Ichiro; could somebody please try to explain this inane comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 10:44 AM) Just wondering...a previous poster mentioned that DeAza was a better ballplayer than Ichiro; could somebody please try to explain this inane comment? Ichiro has gotten substantially worse. Old and showing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 10:44 AM) Just wondering...a previous poster mentioned that DeAza was a better ballplayer than Ichiro; could somebody please try to explain this inane comment? Ichiro is simply not that good anymore. He still has pretty good bat control and can make contact on a fairly regular basis, but he generally does not hit the ball with much authority anymore, doesn't walk a great deal, and he isn't the defender he once was. He's a slap singles hitter instead of the gap to gap stolen base machine he was earlier in his career. De Aza is a gap to gap hitter right now, he works a count, hits for a bit of power, and can play an effective CF. Ichiro has had a great career, but he is not going to be much more than a .280 hitter for the rest of his career, and he might not even get to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) Here's another random thought I've had. Assuming the Rangers do not re-sign Josh Hamilton, they'll have a gaping hole in their lineup/outfield. Wouldn't they be a good trade partner for the Sox? They have an abundance of good young IFs, we can send them one of our starting OFs and Floyd and/or Thornton. Thoughts? Or, since the Red Sox JUST signed Shane Victorino, the Sox could (should) make a move for Elsbury, even though he'll be a FA after the 2013 season. Edited December 13, 2012 by Lamar Johnson 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 11:05 AM) Here's another random thought I've had. Assuming the Rangers do not re-sign Josh Hamilton, they'll have a gaping hole in their lineup/outfield. Wouldn't they be a good trade partner for the Sox? They have an abundance of good young IFs, we can send them one of our starting OFs and Floyd and/or Thornton. Thoughts? Or, since the Red Sox JUST signed Shane Victorino, the Sox could (should) make a move for Elsbury, even though he'll be a FA after the 2013 season. Don't mean to shut down conversation here, but both of these scenarios have been talked about quite a bit on Soxtalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 11:50 AM) Ichiro is simply not that good anymore. He still has pretty good bat control and can make contact on a fairly regular basis, but he generally does not hit the ball with much authority anymore, doesn't walk a great deal, and he isn't the defender he once was. He's a slap singles hitter instead of the gap to gap stolen base machine he was earlier in his career. De Aza is a gap to gap hitter right now, he works a count, hits for a bit of power, and can play an effective CF. Ichiro has had a great career, but he is not going to be much more than a .280 hitter for the rest of his career, and he might not even get to that point. If by fairly regular, you mean about 92%, 5th best in the majors last year, then yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 10:09 PM) so, at their worst, they are basically the same. I think that's what you asked. QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 12, 2012 -> 10:47 PM) Well, -8 would be worse than 0.0, but not vastly different, no. QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 11:50 AM) Ichiro is simply not that good anymore. He still has pretty good bat control and can make contact on a fairly regular basis, but he generally does not hit the ball with much authority anymore, doesn't walk a great deal, and he isn't the defender he once was. He's a slap singles hitter instead of the gap to gap stolen base machine he was earlier in his career. De Aza is a gap to gap hitter right now, he works a count, hits for a bit of power, and can play an effective CF. Ichiro has had a great career, but he is not going to be much more than a .280 hitter for the rest of his career, and he might not even get to that point. QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 01:02 PM) If by fairly regular, you mean about 92%, 5th best in the majors last year, then yeah. Are you trying to start semantics arguments or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 12:02 PM) If by fairly regular, you mean about 92%, 5th best in the majors last year, then yeah. Resulting in a monster .697 OPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 12:02 PM) If by fairly regular, you mean about 92%, 5th best in the majors last year, then yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean. Fairly regular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 01:06 PM) Are you trying to start semantics arguments or something? Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 13, 2012 -> 01:20 PM) Yeah, that's what I mean. Fairly regular. Oh okay. Yeah, Ichrio and Marco Scutaro, those guys make contact on a fairly regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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