Chicago White Sox Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:20 PM) You're not paying for that track record, you're paying for 2013 Matt Thornton. Teams are not going to pay his contract AND give the Sox a good return in trade. Tthat's why Veal gets the better return. Who do you expect to be better in 2013, Thornton or Veal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:29 PM) Who do you expect to be better in 2013, Thornton or Veal? Veal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:31 PM) Veal. Please confirm you mean performance-wise, ignoring salary completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:32 PM) Please confirm you mean performance-wise, ignoring salary completely. If Veal replicates his 2012 performance over a full season then he very well could be. It is highly improbable he does that based on his previous track record, but for arguments sake, say he turned the proverbial corner last season, yeah he could be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Donnie Veal pitched 13 innings in the major leagues since he was signed as a minor league free agent to a minor league contract. What kind of return could he possibly bring that would be better than what Matt Thornton would bring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:35 PM) If Veal replicates his 2012 performance over a full season then he very well could be. It is highly improbable he does that based on his previous track record, but for arguments sake, say he turned the proverbial corner last season, yeah he could be Hopefully he turns out to be as successful as Thornton or the pre-Ozzie Damaso Marte. Edited December 21, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Value is based on what the various needs are on teams wanting badly to make moves. Can't really discuss someone like Thornton in a total absence of context. We've seen relievers be overspent on and also be not very pursued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:32 PM) Please confirm you mean performance-wise, ignoring salary completely. Was that the original question? I don't understand what you mean by "perfomance-wise, ignoring salary completely." Please clarify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Still waiting for those relievers who were traded and the returns SS2K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:35 PM) If Veal replicates his 2012 performance over a full season then he very well could be. It is highly improbable he does that based on his previous track record, but for arguments sake, say he turned the proverbial corner last season, yeah he could be I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's possible Veal outperforms Thornton next year. Unfortunately, relievers are so volatile year to year that very few GMs would have a ton of faith in Veal, especially based on such a small sample size. On the otherhand, Thornton has been one of the more consistent left-handed relievers in the game and I honestly think some GMs would be willing to pay a premium for that. If a GM has no quality lefties in his pen, Thornton suddenly becomes very attractive. Obviously $6 million ain't cheap, but if the alternative is crap, some GM will come to the table with a decent offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:38 PM) Was that the original question? I don't understand what you mean by "perfomance-wise, ignoring salary completely." Please clarify. It was, just wanted to make sure you knew what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's possible Veal outperforms Thornton next year. Unfortunately, relievers are so volatile year to year that very few GMs would have a ton of faith in Veal, especially based on such a small sample size. On the otherhand, Thornton has been one of the more consistent left-handed relievers in the game and I honestly think some GMs would be willing to pay a premium for that. If a GM has no quality lefties in his pen, Thornton suddenly becomes very attractive. Obviously $6 million ain't cheap, but if the alternative is crap, some GM will come to the table with a decent offer. No arguments with any of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) The Sox were able to get a prospect for Scott Linebrink. Fransico Liriano just got $14 million. If anyone really thinks they couldn't get anything for Matt Thornton, they are just kidding themselves. Edited December 21, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:25 PM) Not as laughable as Jabari Parker going to Michigan State. How is this on topic? Weren't you the one complaining about people going off topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:42 PM) Still waiting for those relievers who were traded and the returns SS2K. I've given you plenty of examples. I am waiting for anything from you that isn't conjecture at this point. Either that or some comps for Donnie Veal's trade value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:59 PM) The Sox were able to get a prospect for Scott Linebrink. Fransico Liriano just got $14 million. If anyone really thinks they couldn't get anything for Matt Thornton, they are just kidding themselves. Or trolling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 02:03 PM) I've given you plenty of examples. I am waiting for anything from you that isn't conjecture at this point. Either that or some comps for Donnie Veal's trade value. Javier Lopez might be a good comp as a lefty specialist. The Chisox picked him up as a minor league free agent in 2006 as a 28 year old, he was traded for David Riske a few months later. The Pirates signed him as a free agent for just over a million a couple years later, then dealt him to San Francisco who could use a LOOGY for a pennant race. He was traded for 2 guys named John Bowker and Joe Martinez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:03 PM) I've given you plenty of examples. I am waiting for anything from you that isn't conjecture at this point. Either that or some comps for Donnie Veal's trade value. What relievers being traded have you provided? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:01 PM) How is this on topic? Weren't you the one complaining about people going off topic? I'm not really sure what his point was anyway. Does he think im an MSU fan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:04 PM) Or trolling Why are you making it personal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:01 PM) How is this on topic? Weren't you the one complaining about people going off topic? It on the laughable topic that Rock mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 12:46 PM) I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's possible Veal outperforms Thornton next year. Unfortunately, relievers are so volatile year to year that very few GMs would have a ton of faith in Veal, especially based on such a small sample size. On the otherhand, Thornton has been one of the more consistent left-handed relievers in the game and I honestly think some GMs would be willing to pay a premium for that. If a GM has no quality lefties in his pen, Thornton suddenly becomes very attractive. Obviously $6 million ain't cheap, but if the alternative is crap, some GM will come to the table with a decent offer. In this market a 1 year, $6 million obligation is market value or more likely, less than market cost, for a top notch lefty reliever. Look at the RP signings this winter... Adams, after hip surgery, 2/12 Broxton 3/21 Soria, after TJ, 2/8 Affeldt 3/18 Madson 1/3.5 with another 3.5 in incentives. Heath Bell after his Ozzie induced meltdown was even tradable with minority of dollars absorbed. Matt Lindstrom brought Joe Saunders and Jeremy Guthrie in trades Craig Breslow brought a prospect That is just since the trade deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:13 PM) It on the laughable topic that Rock mentioned. This is exactly what you do when you don't have an answer. You turn it around on someone else. Either stay on topic yourself, or don't complain when others don't. I know you like playing the victim here, but you aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:17 PM) In this market a 1 year, $6 million obligation is market value or more likely, less than market cost, for a top notch lefty reliever. Look at the RP signings this winter... Adams, after hip surgery, 2/12 Broxton 3/21 Soria, after TJ, 2/8 Affeldt 3/18 Madson 1/3.5 with another 3.5 in incentives. Heath Bell after his Ozzie induced meltdown was even tradable with minority of dollars absorbed. Matt Lindstrom brought Joe Saunders and Jeremy Guthrie in trades Craig Breslow brought a prospect That is just since the trade deadline. I disagree that the return for those players was "pretty significant." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 If anyone really thinks they couldn't get anything for Matt Thornton, I disagree that the return for those players was "pretty significant." Just to clarify since, to be honest, there are a crapload of filler posts in this thread now...... is the debate whether you can get "anything" for Thornton, or something "significant?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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