White Sox winter meetings thread...

[Dick Allen]

To be honest, I'm okay with a Salty/Flowers platoon. But Morel and Chavez? I don't know. I'm not sure there's any hope for Morel.

You're probably right, and Chavez could be playing his last game anytime he is penciled in the line up, but for a year, given what it would cost, it is an option to be considered if a couple of other things don't work out.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Dunn had a comeback year and put up an .800 OPS and gets $15 million a year. Napoli had a regression and put up an .812 OPS and gets $13 million a year. Seems to me Napoli is still the better deal.

Really? Come on.

 

Dunn is 2 years older and has 260 more career HR. Napoli had one excellent year his whole career, with everything else being far less than anyone should ever demand from a power position. As a catcher that's one thing, but obviously the Red Sox don't think he can catch much, and the Rangers probably aren't too fond of him there either, and obviously the Angels thought he sucked back there.

 

The Napoli contract is a horrible deal. Dunn OTOH, for 2 years and as a lefty, is a much better contract by far. Dunn doesn't have a lot of value, but if the Sox eat a couple million per/take back a contract, and if they ask for nothing significant in return in prospects, that's a good deal for a team looking for big short-term power without having to give up real assets or forfeit a pick.

[cabiness42]

Platoons aren't necessarily a bad thing, especially at an offensively challenged postion overall ©, and another position where there isn't much available, and a good chunk of the league is looking to fill (3B).

 

I'm in favor of a good platoon, but if all you get for Floyd is one platoon player, then that's selling way too low.

[witesoxfan]

I'm in favor of a good platoon, but if all you get for Floyd is one platoon player, then that's selling way too low.

 

You would get more. If you don't, there's no point in trading him.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Salty sucks balls. Anything involving a backup catcher for Floyd is giving him away and that's stupid, especially since he's one of our best possible trade chips. Floyd can at least bring back a high ceiling A+ arm and a longshot position prospect with some potential.

[Dick Allen]

Really? Come on.

 

Dunn is 2 years older and has 260 more career HR. Napoli had one excellent year his whole career, with everything else being far less than anyone should ever demand from a power position. As a catcher that's one thing, but obviously the Red Sox don't think he can catch much, and the Rangers probably aren't too fond of him there either, and obviously the Angels thought he sucked back there.

 

The Napoli contract is a horrible deal. Dunn OTOH, for 2 years and as a lefty, is a much better contract by far. Dunn doesn't have a lot of value, but if the Sox eat a couple million per/take back a contract, and if they ask for nothing significant in return in prospects, that's a good deal for a team looking for big short-term power without having to give up real assets or forfeit a pick.

If Adam Dunn were a free agent right now, I doubt he would get the contract Napoli is getting.

[NorthSideSox72]

In terms of Salty's value... he's got 2 arb years left, and will likely only get about $3M for 2013. That versus 1 year of Floyd at $9.5M, which is slightly under market, but only for a year. I'd say the Sox would likely get a prospect as well, but not a big one.

 

I like the idea. Salty with a .779 OPS vs RHP in 2012. Makes a perfect match for Flowers. And I don't think Salty will be a backup, I'd bet he gets half the AB's, unless or until one of them shows they are much better than the other. And there is no commitment past 2013 for Salty either.

 

This also frees up about $6M in payroll space to help with 3B, which is a potentially big factor.

 

[Dick Allen]

Salty sucks balls. Anything involving a backup catcher for Floyd is giving him away and that's stupid, especially since he's one of our best possible trade chips. Floyd can at least bring back a high ceiling A+ arm and a longshot position prospect with some potential.

Salty and Flowers are pretty similar offensively except maybe Flowers walks and strikes out a little more. Interesting that they were originally brought up by the same organization.

 

I really don't know why Floyd is considered a huge trade chip. He makes $9.5 million, can be a free agent in a year, and hasn't been all that good recently, including health issues almost annually.

 

In fact when there were rumors of Floyd going to Boston last year, I think when the Youkilis rumors first started to appear, Jim Bowden basically said Floyd would wilt in Boston.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Dick Allen

[The Ultimate Champion]

If Adam Dunn were a free agent right now, I doubt he would get the contract Napoli is getting.

3 years, $39M is a good deal for Dunn if he was a FA right now. Hamilton is a better lefty power bat, but who else is out there? There's not much, and the deal would be warranted given Dunn's track record.

 

Napoli OTOH has what kind of track record? The Angels dumped him, the Jays dumped him, he had one great year in Texas hitting in a terrific lineup in a major hitters park, and that's it. He's mediocre and the contract is s***. The Red Sox suck and they are stupid too. Stupid Red Sox. It's almost like they never lost Theo.

[iamshack]

In terms of Salty's value... he's got 2 arb years left, and will likely only get about $3M for 2013. That versus 1 year of Floyd at $9.5M, which is slightly under market, but only for a year. I'd say the Sox would likely get a prospect as well, but not a big one.

 

I like the idea. Salty with a .779 OPS vs RHP in 2012. Makes a perfect match for Flowers. And I don't think Salty will be a backup, I'd bet he gets half the AB's, unless or until one of them shows they are much better than the other. And there is no commitment past 2013 for Salty either.

 

This also frees up about $6M in payroll space to help with 3B, which is a potentially big factor.

I agree.

Make the deal for Saltalamacchia and either a BP arm or a prospect. Use the cash to sign Youk, then you have C and 3b taken care of, and potentially a piece to add to your pen.

 

This is actually the most intriguing thing I've read about speculative moves lately.

[Dick Allen]

3 years, $39M is a good deal for Dunn if he was a FA right now. Hamilton is a better lefty power bat, but who else is out there? There's not much, and the deal would be warranted given Dunn's track record.

 

Napoli OTOH has what kind of track record? The Angels dumped him, the Jays dumped him, he had one great year in Texas hitting in a terrific lineup in a major hitters park, and that's it. He's mediocre and the contract is s***. The Red Sox suck and they are stupid too. Stupid Red Sox. It's almost like they never lost Theo.

Mike Napoli has a lifetime .863 OPS over a 7 year career, but don't let the facts get in your way.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Count me in the "no Youkilis" group, if that exists. He won't be worth the money he'll get & I don't think we're close enough to title contention to try to fit his salary into the lineup. Find a cheaper stopgap and live with it for a year or two while you find a third baseman elsewhere. I also don't want him for 3-4 years and this market might get him that.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Mike Napoli has a lifetime .863 OPS over a 7 year career, but don't let the facts get in your way.

The biggest problem with trying to talk baseball these days is the way people use OPS they way you do. WTF is OPS? f*** OPS, give me HRs. Naopli is a low batting average right hander who takes a walks and doesn't have Dunn's power. He's a poor man's Dunn and he doesn't defend well enough anywhere to justify his contract.

[iamshack]

Count me in the "no Youkilis" group, if that exists. He won't be worth the money he'll get & I don't think we're close enough to title contention to try to fit his salary into the lineup. Find a cheaper stopgap and live with it for a year or two while you find a third baseman elsewhere. I also don't want him for 3-4 years and this market might get him that.

You think he's going to get something that lucrative?

 

I was kind of hoping something along the lines of 1/$8 million or 2/$15, but I guess maybe I am naive.

[Dick Allen]

The biggest problem with trying to talk baseball these days is the way people use OPS they way you do. WTF is OPS? f*** OPS, give me HRs. Naopli is a low batting average right hander who takes a walks and doesn't have Dunn's power. He's a poor man's Dunn and he doesn't defend well enough anywhere to justify his contract.

He doesn't hit as many home runs, but he does get on base more often.

I would think for a guy like Dunn who is the ultimate 3 outcome hitter, and Napoli who is very similar, OPS is probably exactly what you want to be looking at.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

The biggest problem with trying to talk baseball these days is the way people use OPS they way you do. WTF is OPS? f*** OPS, give me HRs. Naopli is a low batting average right hander who takes a walks and doesn't have Dunn's power. He's a poor man's Dunn and he doesn't defend well enough anywhere to justify his contract.

 

On base plus slugging percentage. It shows that

 

a.) gets on base at a decent clip

b.) he hits for power at a decent clip

c.) he does one really well or both equally well

 

Just because you don't or choose not to understand something does not take away the validity of the number itself.

[IlliniKrush]

The biggest problem with trying to talk baseball these days is the way people use OPS they way you do. WTF is OPS? f*** OPS, give me HRs. Naopli is a low batting average right hander who takes a walks and doesn't have Dunn's power. He's a poor man's Dunn and he doesn't defend well enough anywhere to justify his contract.

The biggest problem with trying to talk baseball these days is the way people use, you know, actual statistics to evaluate players.

 

That's not even an "advanced" stat. Adapt.

[Big Daddy Kool]

Except they're paying him to be a 1B. $13M per for a first baseman who sucks? Maybe someone will take Dunn now because teams this offseason are acting just stupid.

 

His Fenway #'s are nuts however

[Noonskadoodle]

The White Sox and Phillies are the two most aggressive teams in pursuit of a third baseman, a source tells Dan Hayes of CSNChicago.com. Kevin Youkilis is the object of both team's pursuit. Hayes writes the Sox may have to move another high salary in order to afford Youkilis and floats the names of Jeff Keppinger, Mark Reynolds, and Eric Chavez as alternatives.

 

Wow a Reynolds/Dunn combo?....SO MANY K's!!!

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

The biggest problem with trying to talk baseball these days is the way people use, you know, actual statistics to evaluate players.

 

That's not even an "advanced" stat. Adapt.

 

No, the problem is the way that people try to boil everything down to one or two special stats to try to evaluate an offensive player or a pitcher's overall performance level. Baseball is a beautifully complex game and the constant overuse of certain statistics just dumbs it down.

 

And "adapt" why? Maybe I'll just starting listening to horses*** music and watching American Idol all day since that's adapting too.

 

On base plus slugging percentage. It shows that

 

a.) gets on base at a decent clip

b.) he hits for power at a decent clip

c.) he does one really well or both equally well

 

Just because you don't or choose not to understand something does not take away the validity of the number itself.

OPS is the simplest of the combination type stats where people take several different stats and try to make them all into one thing. This isn't special. It's not that difficult to look at the OBP number and the SLG number individually while taking into account the overall skillset of the player.

 

Both Dunn and Napoli walk. Great. Both are also slow DP candidates whose walks can turn into double plays and force plays. Their walks only mean something when/if someone drives them in or if they drive in a run with a walk. To a lesser extent, working a count and taxing the pitcher counts too. Dunn has a career .370 OBP while Napoli's is .356. Dunn is better there but I'd much rather have both guys get on a .330 clip if it meant that good speed and baserunning skills came with it.

 

The power is the only area where both players are special, since neither can defend well enough anywhere. Dunn has a career .499 SLG while Napoli has a career .507 SLG. If you look at SLG then Napoli is a better player, but he's actually not, since Dunn however hits the ball over the fence a lot while Napoliu doubles. This isn't rocket surgery. Hitting the ball over the wall is the greatest outcome any hitter can ever have in any at bat. Dunn's power makes more runs & he's a more dangerous hitter overall.

 

There's no comparison between the two if you look at the players individually, but OPS says they're pretty close. This is why I hate these stats. They dumb down the game and really aren't worth the arguments. The worst is when people try to make comparisons between low power speedsters who get on a decent clip but steal bags with mashing K machines and in doing so completely ignore an entire element of an offense.

 

So yeah, f*** OPS.

[Dick Allen]

No, the problem is the way that people try to boil everything down to one or two special stats to try to evaluate an offensive player or a pitcher's overall performance level. Baseball is a beautifully complex game and the constant overuse of certain statistics just dumbs it down.

 

And "adapt" why? Maybe I'll just starting listening to horses*** music and watching American Idol all day since that's adapting too.

 

 

OPS is the simplest of the combination type stats where people take several different stats and try to make them all into one thing. This isn't special. It's not that difficult to look at the OBP number and the SLG number individually while taking into account the overall skillset of the player.

 

Both Dunn and Napoli walk. Great. Both are also slow DP candidates whose walks can turn into double plays and force plays. Their walks only mean something when/if someone drives them in or if they drive in a run with a walk. To a lesser extent, working a count and taxing the pitcher counts too. Dunn has a career .370 OBP while Napoli's is .356. Dunn is better there but I'd much rather have both guys get on a .330 clip if it meant that good speed and baserunning skills came with it.

 

The power is the only area where both players are special, since neither can defend well enough anywhere. Dunn has a career .499 SLG while Napoli has a career .507 SLG. If you look at SLG then Napoli is a better player, but he's actually not, since Dunn however hits the ball over the fence a lot while Napoliu doubles. This isn't rocket surgery. Hitting the ball over the wall is the greatest outcome any hitter can ever have in any at bat. Dunn's power makes more runs & he's a more dangerous hitter overall.

 

There's no comparison between the two if you look at the players individually, but OPS says they're pretty close. This is why I hate these stats. They dumb down the game and really aren't worth the arguments. The worst is when people try to make comparisons between low power speedsters who get on a decent clip but steal bags with mashing K machines and in doing so completely ignore an entire element of an offense.

 

So yeah, f*** OPS.

You're apparently for paying players in 2013,2014 and 2015 based on what they did in 2005 or 2006. Why don't you look at their numbers the past couple of years, cover up the Adam Dunn poster on your wall, and tell me who is the more valuable player. If home runs are the end all, the past 3 years, Napoli has homered once every 17 plate appearances, Dunn, once every 19.9.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Dick Allen

[The Ultimate Champion]

His Fenway #'s are nuts however

That would make some sense then. If they feel he's going to be the player he was 1 year in Texas for 3 in Fenway then he's worth the money as a 1B.

[IlliniKrush]

No, the problem is the way that people try to boil everything down to one or two special stats to try to evaluate an offensive player or a pitcher's overall performance level. Baseball is a beautifully complex game and the constant overuse of certain statistics just dumbs it down.

 

And "adapt" why? Maybe I'll just starting listening to horses*** music and watching American Idol all day since that's adapting too.

 

 

OPS is the simplest of the combination type stats where people take several different stats and try to make them all into one thing. This isn't special. It's not that difficult to look at the OBP number and the SLG number individually while taking into account the overall skillset of the player.

 

Both Dunn and Napoli walk. Great. Both are also slow DP candidates whose walks can turn into double plays and force plays. Their walks only mean something when/if someone drives them in or if they drive in a run with a walk. To a lesser extent, working a count and taxing the pitcher counts too. Dunn has a career .370 OBP while Napoli's is .356. Dunn is better there but I'd much rather have both guys get on a .330 clip if it meant that good speed and baserunning skills came with it.

 

The power is the only area where both players are special, since neither can defend well enough anywhere. Dunn has a career .499 SLG while Napoli has a career .507 SLG. If you look at SLG then Napoli is a better player, but he's actually not, since Dunn however hits the ball over the fence a lot while Napoliu doubles. This isn't rocket surgery. Hitting the ball over the wall is the greatest outcome any hitter can ever have in any at bat. Dunn's power makes more runs & he's a more dangerous hitter overall.

 

There's no comparison between the two if you look at the players individually, but OPS says they're pretty close. This is why I hate these stats. They dumb down the game and really aren't worth the arguments. The worst is when people try to make comparisons between low power speedsters who get on a decent clip but steal bags with mashing K machines and in doing so completely ignore an entire element of an offense.

 

So yeah, f*** OPS.

Yes.

[The Ultimate Champion]

You're apparently for paying players in 2013,2014 and 2015 based on what they did in 2005 or 2006. Why don't you look at their numbers the past couple of years, cover up the Adam Dunn poster on your wall, and tell me who is the more valuable player.

Yeah right, nice catch there Rajai Davis.

 

Dunn and Napoli both played in the Major Leagues during the following seasons:

 

2006 - Dunn was better

2007 - Dunn was better

2008 - Dunn was better

2009 - Dunn was better

2010 - Dunn was better

2011 - Napoli was better

2012 - Dunn was better

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Yeah right, nice catch there Rajai Davis.

 

Dunn and Napoli both played in the Major Leagues during the following seasons:

 

2006 - Dunn was better

2007 - Dunn was better

2008 - Dunn was better

2009 - Dunn was better

2010 - Dunn was better

2011 - Napoli was better

2012 - Dunn was better

Again, the past 3 years, Napoli has overall been significantly better. He even homers more often per plate appearance. I personally wouldn't want to give Napoli $13 million for 3 years, but IMO, it's better than paying Adam Dunn $15 million.