White Sox winter meetings thread...

[Y2Jimmy0]

First off, everyone knew the Ozzie connection was going to make Freddy much simpler to extend. And yes we were all upset about losing Olivo and Reed but neither were in the same ballpark as what the Rays got. Olivo never put up huge numbers and while Jeremy was lighting the minors on fire he was still being compared to Mark Kotsay.

 

And your line if thinking is just ridiculous, so as long as the Royals prove that they're trying to win this is a good deal despite the fact they're not going to be a playoff contender? That's just absurd.

 

 

Wasn't Freddy acquired during the 2003 season before Ozzie was even the manager? Ozzie's first year Freddy was already in the rotation and they traded Loaiza for Contreras. So when Freddy was traded for, they had no idea that the Ozzie factor would make him sign because he was not here yet.

[LittleHurt05]

Wasn't Freddy acquired during the 2003 season before Ozzie was even the manager? Ozzie's first year Freddy was already in the rotation and they traded Loaiza for Contreras. So when Freddy was traded for, they had no idea that the Ozzie factor would make him sign because he was not here yet.

 

Nope, the trade went down June 27, 2004.

[witesoxfan]

We'll see. I think that the Sox will end up with a better record than the Royals and I'd honestly be surprised if they end up over .500. There are some decent pieces in place but there's still a lot of work to be done.

[The Ultimate Champion]

First off, everyone knew the Ozzie connection was going to make Freddy much simpler to extend. And yes we were all upset about losing Olivo and Reed but neither were in the same ballpark as what the Rays got. Olivo never put up huge numbers and while Jeremy was lighting the minors on fire he was still being compared to Mark Kotsay.

 

And your line if thinking is just ridiculous, so as long as the Royals prove that they're trying to win this is a good deal despite the fact they're not going to be a playoff contender? That's just absurd.

No, you guys are all being absurd.

 

Who the f*** cares if Odorizzi & Myers are very good players 3 years from now when Billy Butler is hitting free agency? If Montgomery is ready in 2013 is he going tio be better than Shields? Probably not. Is the Rule-4 Draft going to end this June, and will there never be any more prospects out there to draft and sign? Is it going to be impossible in 2014 to trade a veteran player from a position of strength to acquire young players or prospects to strengthen an area of weakness?

 

If the Royals do not make this deal, what do they do in 2013? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

Because the Royals *did* make this deal, for the first time in a very long time, they will have a chance. Their fans will care and baseball will be fun again for a lot of people.

 

Timing is also a critical element.

 

Another Sox example of this was KW dumping Carlos Lee for Pods & Vizcaino. Brian? Hinton IIRC was the "prospect" we got in return, Pods was coming off a down year (way down) and Viz was a MR. This was the straight dumping of a very good hitter for players who on paper couldn't even hold his jock & we didn't even get a prospect in return. But what Kenny did do is make that deal early enough to sign Jermaine Dye and to clear up money to add to the team elsewhere. If Kenny thought about value all day in that deal then sure, we'd have gotten a couple good prospects for Lee, but would we have Dye? Nope, because he would have already signed elsewhere. No WS either.

 

On December 10th the Royals, who had gone into the offseason with nothing but #4 & #5 options, sit here with a full rotation. They have the rest of the offseason to further improve that while having already landed possibly the best SP on the trade market and a #3 starter in Davis at a great deal to go with it. They also picked up Guthrie & Santana for only money, and if they can land another cheaper starter with prospects/other players while offloading Hochevar's salary and Chen's money in other deals, then you're talking about a very deep and dangerous starting staff to go along with what they already have. They have the rest of Decemeber and all of January to work with the majority of their heavy lifting already done. And they've also made a move to change the culture and to sell some season tickets before Christmas.

 

Good for KC.

Edited December 10, 2012 by The Ultimate Champion

[Dick Allen]

Nope, the trade went down June 27, 2004.

Pre-2012 season Meyers was rated #28 prospect. He did have a big year so he probably would be considered higher now.

Pre-2004 season, Jeremy Reed rated #25 prospect. Plus Olivio and Morse.

 

I don't consider the price for Shields as excessive as most. Prospects are prospects until they prove otherwise, and really for the Royals to win they are going to need pitching. Doing what they did or paying ridiculous amounts of money in free agency is the only way to do that quickly. I just don't see Shields leading them to the promised land.

 

 

[RockRaines]

Pre-2012 season Meyers was rated #28 prospect. He did have a big year so he probably would be considered higher now.

Pre-2004 season, Jeremy Reed rated #25 prospect. Plus Olivio and Morse.

 

I don't consider the price for Shields as excessive as most. Prospects are prospects until they prove otherwise, and really for the Royals to win they are going to need pitching. Doing what they did or paying ridiculous amounts of money in free agency is the only way to do that quickly. I just don't see Shields leading them to the promised land.

I also think Shields>>Freddy.

 

I dont think the price was excessive at all to be frank.

[witesoxfan]

On what planet is Wade Davis a #3 starter? Maybe that's his potential, but he continually got worse when starting and pitched out of the bullpen last year.

 

Yeah, they'll have a better team, but I don't think it's enough to compete, and they did give up 4 prospects, 3 of whom were very good, for a starting pitcher who is about to get expensive and a bullpen or back of the rotation pitcher.

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

On what planet is Wade Davis a #3 starter? Maybe that's his potential, but he continually got worse when starting and pitched out of the bullpen last year.

 

Yeah, they'll have a better team, but I don't think it's enough to compete, and they did give up 4 prospects, 3 of whom were very good, for a starting pitcher who is about to get expensive and a bullpen or back of the rotation pitcher.

I'm just saying that because I see him as that. I really like Wade Davis & with 2 years under his belt & in a much weaker division I think he's going to excel there. He's the type of player I would love for Hahn to try to acquire, i.e. good now, better in the future, cheap & with a lot of the MLB growing pains over and done with.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

At least some AL scouts see it my way too...

 

Baseball America article...:

 

"An AL Pro Scout: "I've gotta say—I think it's a good trade for both teams. And I really understand and like it for Kansas City. At some point, they have to try to win. They've done a great job adding young talent to their big league club but have just come up a bit short with pitchers. It's not an easy thing to do. They've acquired a present top-of-the-rotation veteran in Shields and a present fourth/fifth starter in Davis. These two guys will step right in and impact their rotation."

 

"One more AL Pro Scout: "I think it's a really good trade from Kansas City's standpoint. You have two proven guys that aren't making a lot of money. Now they don't have to overpay for Anibal Sanchez. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. (The Royals) have to win. Who cares if the Omaha Storm Chasers are good for the next couple of years? They have to win at the varsity level at some point, don't they? I think it's a great trade for the Royals. Could it come back to bite you? Yeah, but if they don't win on TV, it doesn't matter. It's a winnable division."

[The Ultimate Champion]

At least some AL scouts see it my way too...

 

Baseball America article...:

 

"An AL Pro Scout: "I've gotta say—I think it's a good trade for both teams. And I really understand and like it for Kansas City. At some point, they have to try to win. They've done a great job adding young talent to their big league club but have just come up a bit short with pitchers. It's not an easy thing to do. They've acquired a present top-of-the-rotation veteran in Shields and a present fourth/fifth starter in Davis. These two guys will step right in and impact their rotation."

 

"One more AL Pro Scout: "I think it's a really good trade from Kansas City's standpoint. You have two proven guys that aren't making a lot of money. Now they don't have to overpay for Anibal Sanchez. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. (The Royals) have to win. Who cares if the Omaha Storm Chasers are good for the next couple of years? They have to win at the varsity level at some point, don't they? I think it's a great trade for the Royals. Could it come back to bite you? Yeah, but if they don't win on TV, it doesn't matter. It's a winnable division."

That second scout is spot on IMO.

 

But the key for them is the follow up. If Glass decides he's not going to be a Major League type of owner then it's all for naught. If this is one salvo into the dark night, then it's all for naught. If instead this is the big move that gets the attention of the players, fans, front office, etc. and everyone around baseball that says "We're playing for keeps now," then it's terrific. The thought process behind the move, and what this move should signal, for that franchise, is far greater than any of the prospects involved.

[flavum]

So who is they mystery "lefty impact bat" that the Sox want to add? Cano? Mauer?

[Balta1701]

That second scout is spot on IMO.

 

But the key for them is the follow up. If Glass decides he's not going to be a Major League type of owner then it's all for naught. If this is one salvo into the dark night, then it's all for naught. If instead this is the big move that gets the attention of the players, fans, front office, etc. and everyone around baseball that says "We're playing for keeps now," then it's terrific. The thought process behind the move, and what this move should signal, for that franchise, is far greater than any of the prospects involved.

The real key winds up, IMO, still being Hosmer and Moustakas. They had a solid bullpen last year, and this improves their rotation, but it doesn't make their rotation one of the AL's top rotations unless one of the guys they already have steps up.

 

But to win, you don't need the best rotation, you need a good enough rotation, a good enough lineup, and a solid bullpen (with defense built into several of those parts). Their lineup has some talent but was still the bottom of the league last year. If Hosmer and Moustakis can play like borderline all stars, like they should be, then suddenly they've got Cain, Butler, these 2 guys, Perez, and Gordon, all capable of doing major damage, and then a few stragglers like Getz, Frenchy, and Escobar who can contribute sometimes.

 

Hosmer and Moustakis might be the difference between a playoff team and a below .500 team.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

So who is they mystery "lefty impact bat" that the Sox want to add? Cano? Mauer?

 

Chase Headley, I hope, although Padres are insisting there is "no chance" he will be dealt.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Moose & Hosmer can definitely help tremendously if they hit better, but still, this deal (in theory) is about 2013 and beyond. If the Royals win 86 games and finish in 2nd place while their players make additional strides, then as long as they're still in the proper mindset, and as long as they are willing to spend enough to field a contender, then you're talking about a rock-solid young core team heading into the 2013-14 offseason looking for a way to add about 4-8 wins to the club. That would be a phenomenal improvement for that organization on multiple fronts. And that would be when you start looking at them in ST as a team that could possibly contend for a WS, not just a cheapy playoff spot in a bad division/due to the new expanded WC format.

 

You're not going to erase 23 years of Royals baseball in one single offseason, and especially not in one big trade. But the Royals still have a very good farm system and they have a lot of very good young MLB pieces, so the window is going to be open for a long time as long as they're going to act like a professional baseball organization.

[GoGoSox2k2]

So who is they mystery "lefty impact bat" that the Sox want to add? Cano? Mauer?

 

 

is this some new news here? or just our speculation that we are going after a left-handed bat

[southsider2k5]

No, you guys are all being absurd.

 

Who the f*** cares if Odorizzi & Myers are very good players 3 years from now when Billy Butler is hitting free agency? If Montgomery is ready in 2013 is he going tio be better than Shields? Probably not. Is the Rule-4 Draft going to end this June, and will there never be any more prospects out there to draft and sign? Is it going to be impossible in 2014 to trade a veteran player from a position of strength to acquire young players or prospects to strengthen an area of weakness?

 

If the Royals do not make this deal, what do they do in 2013? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

 

Because the Royals *did* make this deal, for the first time in a very long time, they will have a chance. Their fans will care and baseball will be fun again for a lot of people.

 

Timing is also a critical element.

 

Another Sox example of this was KW dumping Carlos Lee for Pods & Vizcaino. Brian? Hinton IIRC was the "prospect" we got in return, Pods was coming off a down year (way down) and Viz was a MR. This was the straight dumping of a very good hitter for players who on paper couldn't even hold his jock & we didn't even get a prospect in return. But what Kenny did do is make that deal early enough to sign Jermaine Dye and to clear up money to add to the team elsewhere. If Kenny thought about value all day in that deal then sure, we'd have gotten a couple good prospects for Lee, but would we have Dye? Nope, because he would have already signed elsewhere. No WS either.

 

On December 10th the Royals, who had gone into the offseason with nothing but #4 & #5 options, sit here with a full rotation. They have the rest of the offseason to further improve that while having already landed possibly the best SP on the trade market and a #3 starter in Davis at a great deal to go with it. They also picked up Guthrie & Santana for only money, and if they can land another cheaper starter with prospects/other players while offloading Hochevar's salary and Chen's money in other deals, then you're talking about a very deep and dangerous starting staff to go along with what they already have. They have the rest of Decemeber and all of January to work with the majority of their heavy lifting already done. And they've also made a move to change the culture and to sell some season tickets before Christmas.

 

Good for KC.

 

Massive difference between "Good for KC" and "KC is a place you go if you want to win"

[witesoxfan]

But this trade by no means guarantees success or even a winning record. If they go out and win 76 games next year, then team morale goes down, the odds that Shields resigns are less, and you are right back at square one down 4 prospects.

 

Yes, you can make that argument for any trade, but the Royals just really aren't in a place to make a trade like this. That's why I'm doing it.

[2nd_city_saint787]

So who is they mystery "lefty impact bat" that the Sox want to add? Cano? Mauer?

 

Josh Hamilton of course

 

 

[flavum]

is this some new news here? or just our speculation that we are going after a left-handed bat

 

It's a combination of the rumor that Sox want to add a lefty impact bat, and that the Sox also are coming up with "pie in the sky" trade ideas. That was the quote I heard from some MLB insider on MLB Network last week.

 

If the Sox actually think they can contend next year, they're currently lacking in every aspect of the roster. The bench will probably be better, but the lineup, rotation, and bullpen are all lacking if they want to get to 90+ wins. I'm not buying into the Sox chances yet. Not even close.

[Jake]

The White Sox are inadequate in every aspect while the Royals are formidable in every way and didn't just give up multiple top notch prospects for a guy they can only dream of resigning. Lol

[witesoxfan]

While depth could be added to the rotation and bullpen, they're fine. The lineup is where the biggest need(s) lie.

[Balta1701]

While depth could be added to the rotation and bullpen, they're fine. The lineup is where the biggest need(s) lie.

The wierd thing is...I agree with you...and yet, in last year's statistics...the lineup was the one thing that was fine, scored the 4th most runs in the AL, and the bullpen and the starters were comparatively weaker

[witesoxfan]

The wierd thing is...I agree with you...and yet, in last year's statistics...the lineup was the one thing that was fine, scored the 4th most runs in the AL, and the bullpen and the starters were comparatively weaker

 

I remember seeing that too. There were a lot of runs given up by pitchers who you would hope improve (a guy like Reed, Axelrod, and Danks) or by guys who will not pitch for the White Sox this year (Humber, Ohman, Stewart, Liriano).

 

On the other hand, you have some guys on offense who you've lost or will lose - Youkilis and Pierzynski - whose production needs to be replaced, and then you want to safeguard yourself against guys like Rios, De Aza, and Dunn/Konerko getting worse yet as well as others who you aren't sure how they'll produce (Beckham, Flowers, Ramirez).

 

So, in the end, I think it does make sense.

[chw42]

Huh? What does the offensive output of Hosmer and Moustakas have to do starting pitching over there? Davis is obviously a starter, he's only in TB's pen due to their very uncharacteristic SP depth. Hosmer and Moose will help that staff out with their gloves & the bullpen will hold the leads they get.

 

Santana also is a very interesting change of scenery candidate. He's very Floydish mentally but KC is much lower pressure and the stuff is definitely there. Plus he has a contract to play for.

 

That team is going to be tough to beat, and still, it's December 10th. KC still has a bunch of tradeable prospects and some salary they could shed in Frenchy & Chen, plus Hochevar's salary could be gone.

 

That's not what I meant. What I meant the team isn't going to be all that good if they don't hit really well, because clearly that pitching staff is full of question marks and mediocre pitchers after Shields.

[Princess Dye]

is this some new news here? or just our speculation that we are going after a left-handed bat

 

 

I wondered this too, but if I'm not mistaken...there's nothing new at all going on