White Sox winter meetings thread...

[YASNY]

We went from Kenny to Can't He.

 

Good line ... but give the man a chance. I'd rather he make the right move than just to make a move.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Good line ... but give the man a chance. I'd rather he make the right move than just to make a move.

Agree. I'm just an antsy Nancy.

[Kyyle23]

Oh boy...not this again.

 

Please, HahnSolo,make a move...

 

Cubs Greed-O shot first

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

Agree. I'm just an antsy Nancy.

 

 

Me too. As a Sox fan, I am bored out of my mind right now. There aren't even rumors about the Sox.

 

Usually there's at least a "Sox want so-and-so" and maybe a "Team X called the Sox about so-and-so"

 

Maybe Hahn is better at flying under the radar than KennyGM ever was. *shrug*

 

 

[bigruss]

I simply expressed how I choose to enjoy the game of baseball and did not attempt to invalidate the advanced stats ... disagree with the importance some people put on them, sure. But I didn't personally insult anybody that holds these stats to a higher regard. Wite is an example, he holds a high opinion of these stats but he's knowledgable baseball fan above and beyond just the stats.

 

As for the comment someone made about arrogance on both sides, let someone insult your baseball insight and see if you don't get your hackles up.

Oh please, if both sides would keep the arrogance out of this then there could be some actual conversation. But no, both sides think they are superior fans, and it's an old act of advanced stats vs eye test.

 

Everyone has different ways that they enjoy the game, if you don't agree with the other person that doesn't make your viewpoint better, it's just different. Stop blasting stats that you don't know, while others need to realize that stats aren't perfect.

 

And yes, there is a nice median between the two that should keep most of us here happy.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Now this is just ridiculous.

 

Having more knowledge of advanced stats does not grant you some sort of special talisman that means anyone else's opinions on the value or performance of a player are wrong. YASNY could just as easily make your exact same post in reverse - that if you are unwilling to acknowledge or learn about the dynamic, non-stats-driven aspects of the game, that your assessments should not be taken seriously. How does that sound to you?

 

Stats are powerful tools in evaluating impact and performance of players over time. They can also be used as semi-reliable predictors of LIKELY outcomes - not definite ones. Therefore, all stats are limited in scope, have inherent flaws, and will never be able to capture all aspects of a player's value to a team. That is an impossible standard.

 

Stats are great. Baseball is great. Stats only describe certain aspects of the game. Get it?

 

 

Bull! This game has been a huge part of my life enough trust my judgement on what I see, the unmeaserable chemistry factor and watching the game itself being played. I have expressed many opinions over the years on soxtalk and I stand by my record of my words over your stats. I grant that your advanced stats give you a little, very little, insight to player evaluation. For you to come on here and say I have no idea of what I'm talking about because I don't happen to agree with your microscopic standard of player management is ridiculously short-sighted, at best. And, I'm being very restrained in my response to your arrogance.

 

You guys are missing my point. There aren't "two sides." There is no set of sabermetric information and non-sabermetric information. It's not measurables vs. non-measurables. It's just information -- and if you want to be able to evaluate player performance accurately, you use all of it. You don't dismiss parts that you (a) don't like, (b) weren't known when you were growing up, © can't be easily calculated without computers, etc. All the stuff YASNY cited about unmeasurable chemistry is super important -- the difference in our arguments are that you're dismissing information and I'm not.

 

I'm not being arrogant, I'm just bluntly responding to YASNY et al.'s dismissal of all arguments that they don't understand because they refuse to try. If you think something is bogus but you don't even understand it, then you don't have anything useful to say about it.

 

All of this garbage about "well while you write your computer programs, I'm going to actually watch the game" is just as insulting as anything I've said. If you think I'm out of line, then let's start with the condescending blanket dismissal that began the whole argument. If you go back and read all of my posts before that specific remark, you'll notice that I've tried to be as informative as possible so that everyone can learn and discuss. To type all of that and get some smart-ass quip insinuating that I don't even watch baseball is infuriating.

 

EDIT: I've read all the posts between now. I just want to make it clear that I never intended to insult anyone's method of "enjoying the game." You can ignore all of this stuff if you want if you don't enjoy it, but it doesn't make it all useless. That's all I'm trying to say. Secondly, I acknowledge the numbers are not infallible, I just ask that if people are going to argue against some of them, that they take the time to understand them before forming that opinion.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Eminor3rd

[witesoxfan]

Some people like stats, some people don't. Let's just stop with that discussion because at this point in time, we know which side on which everyone lies, it's no longer productive, and it's only going to go downhill from here.

 

---

 

How about we look at different possibilities for the Sox? Hell, I hate coming up with hypothetical trades because there's a 1 in a 50,000 shot of it ever coming true, but that will conjure up some good discussion, so someone throw that into the mix. Who is legitimately available from the Orioles for whom the Sox could trade Floyd?

 

 

[YASNY]

While you're writing programs and punching in numbers to come with that 2.058 figure, I'll be sitting in my recliner with a cold brew and enjoying a ballgame. And the last time I looked on the only output format that really matters (the scoreboard) a home run is worth exactly 1 run with 1 run added for every baserunner. I don't need a computer for that.

 

This was my post that seemed to inspire this whole disagreement. Note, that I didn't insult anybody nor did I criticize any stats. I used one particular number as an example and then stated my preference for how I choose to enjoy the game. So take your "oh please" and "arrogant" comments elsewhere as I was not attempting to degrade anybody's baseball acumen. Only when mine was dismissed because of my choice for how to enjoy the game did I get bent out of shape. That said, my participation in this conversation is over. So feel free to take your best shots now, because I'm totally done.

[Eminor3rd]

This was my post that seemed to inspire this whole disagreement. Note, that I didn't insult anybody nor did I criticize any stats. I used one particular number as an example and then stated my preference for how I choose to enjoy the game. So take your "oh please" and "arrogant" comments elsewhere as I was not attempting to degrade anybody's baseball acumen. Only when mine was dismissed because of my choice for how to enjoy the game did I get bent out of shape. That said, my participation in this conversation is over. So feel free to take your best shots now, because I'm totally done.

 

I have no interest in taking shots at you. Even re-reading that after your disclaimer still makes me feel offended, but I'll take your word for the fact that you didn't intend it to be so. Please do me a favor and take my word for the fact that my response was the same. Clearly, we both felt offended and shot back at one another. I'm over it if you are.

[Kyyle23]

Some people like stats, some people don't. Let's just stop with that discussion because at this point in time, we know which side on which everyone lies, it's no longer productive, and it's only going to go downhill from here.

 

---

 

How about we look at different possibilities for the Sox? Hell, I hate coming up with hypothetical trades because there's a 1 in a 50,000 shot of it ever coming true, but that will conjure up some good discussion, so someone throw that into the mix. Who is legitimately available from the Orioles for whom the Sox could trade Floyd?

 

It is difficult to see where the Sox and Orioles matchup, because I dont see that they have a 3rd base prospect (besides Machado) that is worth anything.

 

Possibly the matchup with them is prospects to flip for a 3rd baseman from another team, and in that I have no idea what the other team would be looking for

[Eminor3rd]

Some people like stats, some people don't. Let's just stop with that discussion because at this point in time, we know which side on which everyone lies, it's no longer productive, and it's only going to go downhill from here.

 

I'll stop. But I really think this is the wrong way to look at it, and I'm mostly just frustrated that I haven't been able to explain myself -- I haven't been arguing stats vs. non-stats at any point in this conversation.

 

But, whatever.

 

I'd love to move Floyd. I think he's good but I think we have decent depth in the rotation, even in the case of an injury, and the hole at 3B is just gaping. I don't think Flowers is good, but that hole at C, to me, is much more bearable than the one at third.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

I'd love to move Floyd. I think he's good but I think we have decent depth in the rotation, even in the case of an injury, and the hole at 3B is just gaping. I don't think Flowers is good, but that hole at C, to me, is much more bearable than the one at third.

 

I think this is the key. I feel confident that the Sox have 5 starting pitchers that will be effective this year - Sale and Peavy obviously, and then some combination of Danks, Quintana, Santiago, Rienzo, Axelrod, Castro, and any number of other arms - and dealing from the rotation depth at this point in time for a 3B would be the absolute most efficient use of resources. I also think Floyd is generally underrated - he's pretty durable and, though inconsistent, ends the year with pretty numbers.

 

I think even adding a couple of prospects would be a good start. Perhaps set the team up so they can be competitive this year, but continue building the depth of the minor league system.

[Jordan4life_2007]

lol@the last three pages of this thread. This is where we need qwerty to step up and school everyone just a little bit.

[Dick Allen]

Maybe this post will change things this year but unless your team is in on free agents the winter meetings are just a cock tease

[witesoxfan]

Maybe this post will change things this year but unless your team is in on free agents the winter meetings are just a cock tease

 

And unless it's a good free agent market, you don't want to be in on free agents. Judging some of the current deals, Youkilis could end up getting $10+ million, and that's not a position the Sox (nor any team) should want to find themselves in.

[Eminor3rd]

What about all this Yunel Escobar stuff? I feel like we'd be outbid, and he's risky -- but Brent Morel.

[chw42]

What about all this Yunel Escobar stuff? I feel like we'd be outbid, and he's risky -- but Brent Morel.

 

He'd fit in real well as our #2 hitter.

[justBLAZE]

paul hoynes ‏@hoynsie

 

Heard Jack Hannahan has big league offer from AL Central team. Could be White Sox, who will need 3B help if they lose Youkilis. #indians.

[bigruss]

paul hoynes ‏@hoynsie

 

Heard Jack Hannahan has big league offer from AL Central team. Could be White Sox, who will need 3B help if they lose Youkilis. #indians.

That scraping noise you hear is us at the bottom of the barrel.

 

But seriously, Hannahan is nothing more than a backup on any team.

[chw42]

paul hoynes ‏@hoynsie

 

Heard Jack Hannahan has big league offer from AL Central team. Could be White Sox, who will need 3B help if they lose Youkilis. #indians.

 

The good thing about Hannahan is that he's been a good hitter in April. He's got a .772 career OPS in March/April. That's usually when the Sox can't hit.

 

The problem is that Hannahan hasn't shown an ability to hit over a whole year. He's a below average hitter with a good glove. Nice bench player, I suppose.

[justBLAZE]

How are his splits? There was mention of possible Morel platoon earlier today.

[justBLAZE]

@DKnobler

 

How weak and overpriced is 3B mkt? Frustrated White Sox have even looked for guys they could convert to 3B

[Chicago White Sox]

That scraping noise you hear is us at the bottom of the barrel.

 

But seriously, Hannahan is nothing more than a backup on any team.

He's not even a platoon player, he just sucks. I don't even want him for the bench.

 

If Brent Morel and/or Jack Hannahan are our 3B next year, then we won't be competing for s*** and I'll start having some concerns about Hahn's chances of becoming a good GM.

[Chicago White Sox]

@DKnobler

 

How weak and overpriced is 3B mkt? Frustrated White Sox have even looked for guys they could convert to 3B

There has to be someone out there that would be better than Jack Hannahan at 3B. Hopefully this tweet is true and Hahn is trying to get creative, because settling for crap this early in the off-season is completely unacceptable IMO.

[cabiness42]

It's too bad the Sox didn't have a club option on a decent 3B. Oh wait, they did . . .