witesoxfan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 01:49 PM) Not a bad investment because A) he's a fan favorite, and B) He's a LOT better than any catcher we have! Agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Agree to disagree I hope you're right. All I see from Flowers is a pretty good defensive catcher who strikes out a TON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 04:03 PM) I hope you're right. All I see from Flowers is a pretty good defensive catcher who strikes out a TON. With major power, as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I bet Flowers also draws more walks in the first half than Pierzynski has ever drawn in a single season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:10 PM) I bet Flowers also draws more walks in the first half than Pierzynski has ever drawn in a single season He might also strike out 4 times more. But if he hits twice as many home runs and draws twice as many walks, I can care less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:10 PM) I bet Flowers also draws more walks in the first half than Pierzynski has ever drawn in a single season Tyler had 12 BB in 153 PAs. AJ had 28 in 520. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:17 PM) Tyler had 12 BB in 153 PAs. AJ had 28 in 520. And that 28 was a career high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 04:17 PM) Tyler had 12 BB in 153 PAs. AJ had 28 in 520. That'd be 41 for Tyler in as many PA's, and Flowers had extremely choppy playing time...not totally out of the question, as last year was the most AJ had ever walked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) B) He's a LOT better than any catcher we have! Can Flowers get the typical AJ OPS of say .750, when facing both righties and lefties for a year? Probably not, but also probably wont be astronomically lower than that. He also costs way, way less. Then factor in defense. Then factor in that Flowers is cheap labor and a not-developing asset. The choice is clear. AJ out, and you spend that money elsewhere. Edited December 19, 2012 by Jose Paniagua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:26 PM) Can Flowers get the typical AJ OPS of say .750, when facing both righties and lefties for a year? Probably not, but also probably wont be astronomically lower than that. He also costs way, way less. Then factor in defense. Then factor in that Flowers is cheap labor and a not-developing asset. The choice is clear. AJ out, and you spend that money elsewhere. I honestly don't see why he couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 This kinda reminds me of when the Sox thought Karkovice was ready to replace Fisk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 04:32 PM) This kinda reminds me of when the Sox thought Karkovice was ready to replace Fisk. Well, AJ's no hall of famer, and you can't just sit on Flowers forever. Gotta find out at some point, and that point is when AJ reaches FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:32 PM) This kinda reminds me of when the Sox thought Karkovice was ready to replace Fisk. And you just compared AJ Pierzynski to Carlton Fisk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 And you just compared AJ Pierzynski to Carlton Fisk Oops! And Flowers to Karkovice! I'm fairly certain Flowers is better than Karko ever was. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 04:32 PM) This kinda reminds me of when the Sox thought Karkovice was ready to replace Fisk. Plus, Kark's first two full seasons he put up offensive numbers almost identical to Fisk's last full season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:38 PM) Oops! And Flowers to Karkovice! I'm fairly certain Flowers is better than Karko ever was. My bad. I have no problem with the Flowers and Karkovice comparison. Flowers has a better track record but they have similar games. Pierzynski to Fisk is a little outlandish though. You are talking about a good, durable starting catcher to one of the greatest catchers of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 You don't have to REPLACE a.j. with flowers completely. You have to replace enough of him to warrant saving a ton of money at the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:51 PM) You don't have to REPLACE a.j. with flowers completely. You have to replace enough of him to warrant saving a ton of money at the position. That's true too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I know someone mentioned this earlier, but I'd feel so much more comfortable having Flowers take over for AJ if the Sox were able to get a lefty back-up catcher that could get a good amount of ABs against tough righties. Having Flowers and Viciedo at the bottom of the order against the likes of Verlander, Scherzer, etc. is not the best of plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:51 PM) You don't have to REPLACE a.j. with flowers completely. You have to replace enough of him to warrant saving a ton of money at the position. And use the extra millions to improve something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 10:18 AM) One of the biggest factors in Bourn's large WAR last year was his fielding which, while I don't doubt was incredible, is also less predictable from year to year and loses a bit of its advantage in a smaller park like USCF. He's a great player, he's just not worth it for the Sox. He's only had an OPS+ of above 100 once. None of his offensive numbers, save stolen bases, are impressive. You put a ton of stock in advanced defensive metrics and his base stealing ability to find any value in him. He can shove that $15M up his ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 That's true too. But then the money you save has to be reinvested into perceived areas of weakness! We're not seeing that (yet!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 03:02 PM) He's only had an OPS+ of above 100 once. None of his offensive numbers, save stolen bases, are impressive. You put a ton of stock in advanced defensive metrics and his base stealing ability to find any value in him. He can shove that $15M up his ass. Great post...agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 AJ/Fisk is an apt comparison. Both were anchors for the team a long time, and management has sought to replace/supplement both over that tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 19, 2012 -> 02:38 PM) Oops! And Flowers to Karkovice! I'm fairly certain Flowers is better than Karko ever was. My bad. Kark couldn't hit, but wasn't he an elite defender? Cannon for an arm. I'd take Kark over this version of Flowers in an instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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