ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 If the Sox win the division last year, the game is way different at this point. The Tigers wouldn't have had nearly as much money to spend, and the Sox would have had a lot more as the bandwagon fans would have filled up the joint for the playoffs. One change invalidates everything after it. Don't confuse having money to spend versus willingness to spend the money (that you have)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 02:43 PM) True. My point is (at least on paper) the Tigers and the Royals have greatly improved their teams so far this off season, while the Sox (at best) have not, (and might not be as good as they were last season.). I don't think anyone would say anyone but the Tigers are the favorites right now. The difference is that most feel AJ here or in Texas doesn't really change that equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 02:44 PM) Don't confuse having money to spend versus willingness to spend the money (that you have)! Oh lord. Are we going to wake all of the cheap owner stuff out of hibernation? Please tell me we aren't going there. Soxtalk is such a much better place without that silliness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Matt Spiegel @MattSpiegel670 Hawk Harrelson had to sell Kenny Williams on the idea to sign A.J. Pierzinski. Hawk talks AJ's Sox career with @MacAndSpiegs at 3 pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 02:43 PM) True. My point is (at least on paper) the Tigers and the Royals have greatly improved their teams so far this off season, while the Sox (at best) have not, (and might not be as good as they were last season.). The Royals lost 90 games last year and have added 3 pitchers. You can say they greatly improved their team because James Shields will do that, but I think they'll still struggle to crack 81 wins. There's plenty of talent but there are quite a few holes around that team still too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I don't think anyone would say anyone but the Tigers are the favorites right now. The difference is that most feel AJ here or in Texas doesn't really change that equation. I guess that's where we disagree...I believe that the 2013 Sox would have been better with AJ and Flowers than with Flowers and Giminez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 09:50 PM) Matt Spiegel @MattSpiegel670 Hawk Harrelson had to sell Kenny Williams on the idea to sign A.J. Pierzinski. Hawk talks AJ's Sox career with @MacAndSpiegs at 3 pm. Is he the best FA signing in Sox history ( not including guys who returned)? Off the top of my head he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 03:07 PM) Is he the best FA signing in Sox history ( not including guys who returned)? Off the top of my head he is. I would place Fisk above him for sure and you could make an argument for Dye. Oh, Will Ohman as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Oh lord. Are we going to wake all of the cheap owner stuff out of hibernation? Please tell me we aren't going there. Soxtalk is such a much better place without that silliness. I believe ownership owes it to it's fan base to put the best team on the field that it possibly can. Period. Not the best team it is willing to afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 03:08 PM) I believe ownership owes it to it's fan base to put the best team on the field that it possibly can. Period. Not the best team it is willing to afford. And this is how the sub-prime mortgage crisis began Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I would place Fisk above him for sure and you could make an argument for Dye. Oh, Will Ohman as well Jaime Navarro??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 And this is how the sub-prime mortgage crisis began Wrong. Cuz you're confusing willingness to spend versus ability to spend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 03:43 PM) But what about Papa Grande and Rey Olmedo (Actually, small bench upgrades and not having a lazy bum like Olmedo will probably be worth a win or two also). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 03:08 PM) I believe ownership owes it to it's fan base to put the best team on the field that it possibly can. Period. Not the best team it is willing to afford. I think your focus is too narrow. It is dumb baseball to go crazy one year, and then paralyze your team for the future. See also; Cubs, Chicago. Mets, New York. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I want my team to win WHEN it can. I don't worry about 3-5 years from now; I'd trade every prospect we have if it would get me a Championship in 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 03:40 PM) I want my team to win WHEN it can. I don't worry about 3-5 years from now; I'd trade every prospect we have if it would get me a Championship in 2013. What guarantees that championship? How much would you have to add to this team to make the playoffs, much less the WS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 04:40 PM) I want my team to win WHEN it can. I don't worry about 3-5 years from now; I'd trade every prospect we have if it would get me a Championship in 2013. Then with the Tigers doing exactly that and temporarily willing to lose money, this seems like a terrible time to try and win by losing money ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Then with the Tigers doing exactly that and temporarily willing to lose money, this seems like a terrible time to try and win by losing money ourselves. Then why try? Might as well trade everybody? Lose 100+, get high draft picks and rebuild. What's the point of being a .500 team? It's better to win big OR lose big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 losing big and rebuilding with prospects does not guarantee that you will put yourself back into contention any time soon. Just ask the Royals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 03:59 PM) Then why try? Might as well trade everybody? Lose 100+, get high draft picks and rebuild. What's the point of being a .500 team? It's better to win big OR lose big. I used to believe this, but then you grow up and realize the financial impact that would have. We can barely get 23k at a game when in first place. If the Sox were in last place last year attendance may have been below 20k. And you may counter, "payroll is lower so it's a wash!," and that may be true but the long term impact of losing those fans, of losing the young generation's attention would be huge to the Sox. They can't afford what the Cubs are doing because right now it's not the cool thing to be a Sox fan, it's not a destination for 30k+ fans when they are losing. The Sox must continue to field a competitive team, and build long term alongside that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 01:11 PM) When Danks is 100% healthy, he's an above average (damn good!) SP. Any staff in baseball would love to have him. When VMart is 100% healthy, he is THE best DH in baseball. A dangerous hitter, that would be welcome on any team in baseball. IMO, every day ballplayers are more valuable than SPs. The best SP can only help you win once every 5 games, whereas a position player, even a DH, can potentially help you win every game. Does this make sense? He is? http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=17,d I see that he was 4th in wOBA and OPS in 2011 among DHs. That was one of his better seasons too. I can name two DHs that are for sure 100% better than V-Mart off the top of my head alone: David Ortiz and Edwin Encarnacion. Hell, I might even include Billy Butler. Edited December 21, 2012 by chw42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! GO SOX! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 04:02 PM) I used to believe this, but then you grow up and realize the financial impact that would have. We can barely get 23k at a game when in first place. If the Sox were in last place last year attendance may have been below 20k. And you may counter, "payroll is lower so it's a wash!," and that may be true but the long term impact of losing those fans, of losing the young generation's attention would be huge to the Sox. They can't afford what the Cubs are doing because right now it's not the cool thing to be a Sox fan, it's not a destination for 30k+ fans when they are losing. The Sox must continue to field a competitive team, and build long term alongside that. Nailed it. Going into the season with a 25% chance of making the playoffs (which is probably about what I'd put the Sox at right now; Detroit at 50%, KC at 15%, Cleveland and Minnesota both at 5% or so) leaves open the opportunity that you have a "fluky" season and sneak into the playoffs, which increases revenue like crazy. On top of that, you have increased attendance due to being relevant in the division race for so long. There are a few areas where this team could improve, but even today, this team would have an outside shot at winning the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 04:02 PM) losing big and rebuilding with prospects does not guarantee that you will put yourself back into contention any time soon. Just ask the Royals Not only that, it erodes the fan base. See the Cleveland Indians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 21, 2012 -> 03:40 PM) I want my team to win WHEN it can. I don't worry about 3-5 years from now; I'd trade every prospect we have if it would get me a Championship in 2013. So you'd most likely turn the team into the Cubs or Mets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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