Time to revisit the 2nd Amendment?

[Soxbadger]

And my problem with this has always been that there are an infinite number of dangerous objects that can be used, in the heat of the moment or deliberately, to kill. We all don't live in some strange fear of cars or knives or whatever. The ease of killing doesn't change the fact that if I wanted I can just run people down in my car. Or go around slashing people with a knife like in China.

 

Cars and knives have useful purposes. My car gets me to work. My knife allows me to put butter on bread. Lets be realistic here, someone could have burnt that entire school to the ground if they just wanted body counts. They could have driven a truck full of gasoline into the front of the school as kids were leaving.

 

The difference is that a gun is designed to harm things. And so if we have a product thats purpose is to harm things, we should really regulate that product more than other products.

 

And you are right, nothing changes the fact that you cant stop someone from killing you. So it begs the question, why have a gun if you admit that your survival is completely out of your own hands. If someone creates a fertilizer bomb and drives it into your house, no amount of guns will save your family.

 

 

The actual numbers say that if you have a gun in the house, you're an order of magnitude more likely to accidentally use it to shoot someone you know, or your family is vastly more likely to use it to hurt themselves, either accidentally or on purpose. The number of successful defenses against home invasions by people with guns is miniscule compared to the number of gun accidents and suicides by people who used a family member's gun.

 

I didnt even want to get into this, but it goes with the entire theme of my argument. No one even knows if you are safer with a gun, let alone that it makes such a difference that you need to have instant access.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Jenksismyhero]

Yet we live in some strange fear where we rationalize easy and widespread access to dangerous weapons and fight against any sort of laws to restrict or regulate them, arguing instead that we need more guns in more places and more people should be carrying loaded weapons on them at all times.

 

If guns weren't a much more effective means of killing things than cars or knives, they wouldn't exist. It's silly to argue that they are not extremely good at what they are designed to do.

 

Please quote someone in this thread thats advocating for NO restrictions or regulations on guns. No one here, or publicly, does that. It's not a free for all and everyone involved, including the NRA crazies, understand the need for certain restrictions.

 

And I never said they weren't good at what they do, but we don't go overboard trying to protect society from every potential object that can kill. Let's ban vehicles because we know 10k people a year are going to die from DUI's. Oh wait, no, that's acceptable. It's not some terrible boogeyman to blame and be scared of like guns.

[BigSqwert]

And I never said they weren't good at what they do, but we don't go overboard trying to protect society from every potential object that can kill. Let's ban vehicles because we know 10k people a year are going to die from DUI's. Oh wait, no, that's acceptable. It's not some terrible boogeyman to blame and be scared of like guns.

 

Out of all the car fatalities this past year, how many people were intentionally killed by a car?

 

Of all gun fatalities this past year, how many people were intentionally killed by a gun?

[Balta1701]

I didnt even want to get into this, but it goes with the entire theme of my argument. No one even knows if you are safer with a gun, let alone that it makes such a difference that you need to have instant access.

Actually it's pretty well established from the handful of studies that are out there.

 

But you know why there are only a handful of studies?

 

In 1996, Congress went after anyone who was attempting to study such sociological problems and said that it would rather not know. The Centers for Disease control had funding stripped away for such studies...and then had Congress actively prohibit the CDC and other agencies from even studying the question.

 

We're literally not even allowed to do the science properly unless it's funded by an outside group without government support.

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

 

They are so scared that the studies will show guns don't make you more safe that they won't allow independent studies to be done.

 

The ones that are out there could not be more clear, but they are sparse compared to everything else I'd look at, because we're not allowed to look. The fantasy that a person is going to be the vigilante who steps up and protects his family is just that...a fantasy. It happens a handful of times per year, bout 200. The nightmare that kids get into guns happens all the time...but no one fantasizes about that, because it doesn't make a person feel good.

[StrangeSox]

It's ridiculous to equate cars and guns in their threat and their utility. If that's really the best pro-gun argument out there, you have a very weak case.

 

Guns are a "boogeyman" because, unlike cars or knives, they're designed to kill things. They're used much more frequently in this country to kill other people, and there's several hundred million of them in circulation. The benefits of our current liberalized gun policies are questionable at best. It isn't going overboard to recognize the very real harm that guns cause in our country and want to stop that.

[StrangeSox]

Some commentary on the 7C/Posner decision mandating concealed carry in Illinois last week:

 

Garrett Epps on the recent 7CA opinion striking down Illinois’s ban on concealed carry:

 

Posner’s opinon in the new case Moore v. Madigan contains the most bizarre line I have read in a federal-court opinion since, well, ever. The issue is whether the Supreme Court’s two recent gun-rights decisions, Heller v. District of Columbia and McDonald v. City of Chicago, create a right to armed self-defense outside the home. The Court’s opinions said they did not; but to Posner, that’s silly: “To confine the right to be armed to the home is to divorce the Second Amendment from the right of self-defense described in Heller and McDonald. It is not a property right — a right to kill a houseguest who, in a fit of aesthetic fury, tries to slash your copy of Norman Rockwell’s painting, Santa with Elves.”

 

People may be dying in the streets, but to Posner, the case is a chance for shtick.

 

[...]

 

Justice Scalia made his own set of headlines this week, mocking and belittling gay rights to a Princeton audience. Posner has recently made a specialty of needling Scalia, but the truth is the two judges are more alike than either would like to admit. And both of them might consider whether it’s a good time to dial it back a bit.

 

On one level, I think this is a little unfair to Posner. Whatever motivated his (tasteless) joke, it’s not that he’s a gun nut indifferent to the consequences of striking down gun control legislation. Posner has been openly contemptuous of the the Supreme Court’s holding in Heller.

 

Having said that, Posner’s opinion is a little odd. Had the Supreme Court in Heller merely declared an individual right to bear arms in self-defense without detailing the potential limitations, it would be hard to object to Posner’s application of the precedent. On its face, Posner’s argument isn’t illogical: if the 2nd Amendment creates an individual right to self-defense, this would seem to apply outside the home even if the facts of Heller were about maintaining a weapon in one’s residence.

 

The problem is, Scalia’s opinion did address this question directly, and at a minimum strongly implied that the 2nd Amendment did not proscribe concealed carry laws:

 

For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.

 

Given that to Scalia originalism provided the justification for finding an individual right to bear arms, this settles the question for me. My reading of Posner’s opinion — since we know his application of Heller isn’t the product of a personal belief that the Second Amendment should confer an individual right to bear arms — is that it’s another round in his ongoing battle with Scalia. Scalia might disown the implications of his opinion, Posner seems to be saying, but lower courts are now obligated to follow his holding to its radical conclusions. If you don’t like it, overrule Heller.

 

I can sort of understand the impulse, but I think Epps is right that it’s the wrong course to take. Reductio ad absurdum is fine for a law review article, but less so for an circuit court. If the Supreme Court wants to hold that concealed carry laws are unconstitutional, it should go first. Especially since the Supreme Court can just refuse to hear appeals, lower courts shouldn’t apply Heller more broadly than necessary, it in particular shouldn’t cite it to strike down laws that the Court specifically implied are constitutional.

[EvilMonkey]

In 1990 I moved to a far south suburb of Chicago, at the time a fairly nice place. I grew up there, and saw the town go thu ups and downs prior to my moving there. During the next 10 years, I saw my community go from good to bad to worse. Crime went up, my garage was broken into 3 times in a two month period, despite reenforcing the side door and bars on the window. In 2001 I had an opportunity to start up my own business. The neighborhood was bad, but not yet bad enough. So I did. My mistake. Within the next 2 years, the town got exponentially worse. In 2002 my car was broken into twice. Garage broken into again. Someone stole 3 hanging plants from the front lawn (!). And someone tried to break in. The back door was smashed, glass everywhere, frame messed up, but they didn't get in. I now couldn't move, as someone earlier in the thread said I should do, I was stuck here for a few more years. So I got my shotgun back from my dad and trained my wife to use it. I have a safe it was in, digital lock that can be opened in about 5 seconds with the combination.

 

Fast forward to 2005. In those 3 years, I suffered through 4 or 5 more car break ins (lost track and only one car garage), my garage door smashed like someone ran into it with a car, and 2 more attempted home invasions, one when I was home. Then came the gang fight. Two houses across the street were fighting all day. I was on the porch since it was a nice day, and when the fight turned to blows, I called the police. They came, broke it up, went away. An hour later, fighting again, this time with additional family members on each side. One had a bat in hand. I called the cops again, who arrived just as fighting broke out. The separated them all and left, again. This happened a third time, I was getting to know the 911 operator real well by this point. They came and took back one person from each place to the station this time. I took the family to my parents and left to enjoy the day.

 

A few hours later, as I am driving to my driveway, I see what appears to be at least 50 people down by the streets edge. We pull into the driveway and run into the house, and of course, call the police. While on the phone with the police, all hell breaks loose. Riot outside. there are a few bats that I can see and one person with a big stick. The cops show up, every cop in town it looked like, along with 3 cops from a neighboring town, 3 ambulances and a firetruck. The finally calm things down, take 4 to the hospital, one had a knife wound and there were several broken bones, and many people were maced. I can see several people looking at me, pointing my way, as if somehow me calling the cops on the idiots was the problem, instead of them wanting to kill each other. Cut to an hour later. We are on the front porch again, I go inside to get something to drink and moment later my wife comes running in with our sons, slammed the door, heading for the basement screaming 'they got guns'! So I locked the doors, grabbed my shotgun and went to a side window to look. Sure enough, there were 2 cars sitting outside my house, with about 6 people dresses like any stereotypical gangbanger you care to name. I am on the phone with the police, screaming at them to get over here NOW, and crouched with my shotgun, hoping I don't have to use it. One of the guys goes up to one of the houses and talks to someone while the others mill about with guns drawn for what seemed like an eternity but was probably only a minute. They started heading my way, looking around as they crossed the street, when I hear sirens. They did too apparently and jumped back in the cars and left, but not after one guy took a shot at my house, putting a hole in the front window and wall. Cops showed up about a minute after they left.

 

Every day and night since then until I got out of that hellhole, that shotgun followed me wherever I went in my house. We didn't go outside along if we could help it. And I saved every damn penny and called in every favor I ever had to get out. Easier said than done, whoever the smartass was earlier in the thread that said 'just move'. yes, I am in a safer place now. At least it seems that way. But at one time my old home was a safe place as well. Not so much anymore. Have thugs loaded for war walking towards your house where your wife and kids are, then tell me you don't want guns, you'lll wait for the police. If so, you have way more faith than me. That is why I have guns, and will keep my guns.

[southsider2k5]

And therein lies the problem with this discussion...it's entirely emotional.

 

Everyone defending guns, except for a few people who are telling us that their neighborhood is as bad as Baghdad, is using an emotional argument. You're right, I'm sure you do feel more secure having it in the house and being able to respond to the unlikely event of an intruder (and yes, an intruder during the night, for virtually everyone in the United States, is an unlikely event).

 

What is getting ignored though? All the other things that can happen. The actual data is being completely ignored in favor of the emotion.

 

The actual numbers say that if you have a gun in the house, you're an order of magnitude more likely to accidentally use it to shoot someone you know, or your family is vastly more likely to use it to hurt themselves, either accidentally or on purpose. The number of successful defenses against home invasions by people with guns is miniscule compared to the number of gun accidents and suicides by people who used a family member's gun.

 

A good comparison is flying/driving. Per mile, you're vastly safer making a trip on a plane than driving...but people get nervous on planes in a way that they don't while driving because they're in control while driving. You have a gun, you get that surge of neurotransmitters...you feel more comfortable, controlled, in power. That is not the case at all, outside of maybe, maybe, maybe the most violent neighborhoods in the country...but that doesn't change how the brain processes it. The brain is making a mistake, but it's a mistake the human brain is designed to make.

 

Humans are really bad at evaluating the actual risk of rare things. We're really bad at evaluating the likelihood of a car accident, but we learn not to be scared of that because we deal with autos in our daily lives and we feel in control. We're really bad at evaluating what changes to the risks to our family having a gun in the house does...but we know we like to be in control, so there is nothing, no bit of data, no forum post, no study, no crime, no tragedy that will change our minds on that.

 

If we are talking about odds, what are the odds for a mass shooting attack?

 

[Texsox]

I was thinking about supply and demand and the comments that criminals will get guns anyways. If my economics logic isn't faulty, being able to rent a gun on the street for less than $10 tells me that there is a large supply to meet the demand. If the supply was reduced, guns would cost more to rent, and disrupt the nickle and dime armed robberies.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Yet you never had to use your gun or even threaten to use it and instead actually did rely on the police. And as you said, it was a shotgun, not a handgun or an 'assault' rifle*. You didn't need a personal arsenal, 10,000 rounds of ammunition and a 30-round magazine with more strapped to your chest. You were in fear because other people had guns. That's the same reason we'd like to restrict them--far too many guns are out there already, and it's trivially easy for anyone to get their hands on one, legally or not.

 

By the way, I fully agree with your push-back against the naive "just move!" argument.

[Balta1701]

I was thinking about supply and demand and the comments that criminals will get guns anyways. If my economics logic isn't faulty, being able to rent a gun on the street for less than $10 tells me that there is a large supply to meet the demand. If the supply was reduced, guns would cost more to rent, and disrupt the nickle and dime armed robberies.

The U.S. has ~5% of the world's population and about 1/3 to 1/2 of the world's guns.

[Balta1701]

If we are talking about odds, what are the odds for a mass shooting attack?

How are you defining a mass shooting? More than 1 person shot? That happens all the time. I've heard of ~5 of those since Sandy Hook, and that's probably a fraction of the actual number. I believe there was a "Multiple shooting" at the Exaclibur casino in Vegas Friday night. I heard about a couple police getting shot in Kansas (I think) on the way to work this morning. A couple of people getting shot in an incident is normal enough that it's not anything beyond local news unless it happens in certain places. More than 10 people shot? Much rarer.

[Steve9347]

In 1990 I moved to a far south suburb of Chicago, at the time a fairly nice place. I grew up there, and saw the town go thu ups and downs prior to my moving there. During the next 10 years, I saw my community go from good to bad to worse. Crime went up, my garage was broken into 3 times in a two month period, despite reenforcing the side door and bars on the window. In 2001 I had an opportunity to start up my own business. The neighborhood was bad, but not yet bad enough. So I did. My mistake. Within the next 2 years, the town got exponentially worse. In 2002 my car was broken into twice. Garage broken into again. Someone stole 3 hanging plants from the front lawn (!). And someone tried to break in. The back door was smashed, glass everywhere, frame messed up, but they didn't get in. I now couldn't move, as someone earlier in the thread said I should do, I was stuck here for a few more years. So I got my shotgun back from my dad and trained my wife to use it. I have a safe it was in, digital lock that can be opened in about 5 seconds with the combination.

 

Fast forward to 2005. In those 3 years, I suffered through 4 or 5 more car break ins (lost track and only one car garage), my garage door smashed like someone ran into it with a car, and 2 more attempted home invasions, one when I was home. Then came the gang fight. Two houses across the street were fighting all day. I was on the porch since it was a nice day, and when the fight turned to blows, I called the police. They came, broke it up, went away. An hour later, fighting again, this time with additional family members on each side. One had a bat in hand. I called the cops again, who arrived just as fighting broke out. The separated them all and left, again. This happened a third time, I was getting to know the 911 operator real well by this point. They came and took back one person from each place to the station this time. I took the family to my parents and left to enjoy the day.

 

A few hours later, as I am driving to my driveway, I see what appears to be at least 50 people down by the streets edge. We pull into the driveway and run into the house, and of course, call the police. While on the phone with the police, all hell breaks loose. Riot outside. there are a few bats that I can see and one person with a big stick. The cops show up, every cop in town it looked like, along with 3 cops from a neighboring town, 3 ambulances and a firetruck. The finally calm things down, take 4 to the hospital, one had a knife wound and there were several broken bones, and many people were maced. I can see several people looking at me, pointing my way, as if somehow me calling the cops on the idiots was the problem, instead of them wanting to kill each other. Cut to an hour later. We are on the front porch again, I go inside to get something to drink and moment later my wife comes running in with our sons, slammed the door, heading for the basement screaming 'they got guns'! So I locked the doors, grabbed my shotgun and went to a side window to look. Sure enough, there were 2 cars sitting outside my house, with about 6 people dresses like any stereotypical gangbanger you care to name. I am on the phone with the police, screaming at them to get over here NOW, and crouched with my shotgun, hoping I don't have to use it. One of the guys goes up to one of the houses and talks to someone while the others mill about with guns drawn for what seemed like an eternity but was probably only a minute. They started heading my way, looking around as they crossed the street, when I hear sirens. They did too apparently and jumped back in the cars and left, but not after one guy took a shot at my house, putting a hole in the front window and wall. Cops showed up about a minute after they left.

 

Every day and night since then until I got out of that hellhole, that shotgun followed me wherever I went in my house. We didn't go outside along if we could help it. And I saved every damn penny and called in every favor I ever had to get out. Easier said than done, whoever the smartass was earlier in the thread that said 'just move'. yes, I am in a safer place now. At least it seems that way. But at one time my old home was a safe place as well. Not so much anymore. Have thugs loaded for war walking towards your house where your wife and kids are, then tell me you don't want guns, you'lll wait for the police. If so, you have way more faith than me. That is why I have guns, and will keep my guns.

That's a crazy story. Seriously, just f***ed up, I read every word. I'm sure that shotgun you had made you feel safer, but s*** man, it'd have been 6 on 1. What if the 50 people down the street had guns instead of "a few bats and a big stick"?

 

[EvilMonkey]

Yet you never had to use your gun or even threaten to use it and instead actually did rely on the police. And as you said, it was a shotgun, not a handgun or an 'assault' rifle*. You didn't need a personal arsenal, 10,000 rounds of ammunition and a 30-round magazine with more strapped to your chest. You were in fear because other people had guns. That's the same reason we'd like to restrict them--far too many guns are out there already, and it's trivially easy for anyone to get their hands on one, legally or not.

 

By the way, I fully agree with your push-back against the naive "just move!" argument.

I was going to edit that after that was when I got my handguns and rifle, realizing that my shotgun wasn't going to do much until they got closer. I have had that gun since I was 10. I still got shot at, and a few more steps I was opening fire.

[EvilMonkey]

That's a crazy story. Seriously, just f***ed up, I read every word. I'm sure that shotgun you had made you feel safer, but s*** man, it'd have been 6 on 1. What if the 50 people down the street had guns instead of "a few bats and a big stick"?

I realized that I was outnumbered, but it was better than nothing, and I figured the cops would show up eventually, even if I had to retreat to the basement myself. I did manage to move out 4 months after that. Got a buyer right away since I cut the price pretty cheap, but we wanted out. I also had a driveby happen behind me the day before I was scheduled to move. I ended up on the front lawn of some hose to get out of the way of the speeding car behind me, on the floor of my truck both crying and getting pissed that I was about to be shot the day BEFORE I got out of there. I am so glad to be out of that place. Sauk Village can just forget I ever lived there.

[Y2HH]

I was going to edit that after that was when I got my handguns and rifle, realizing that my shotgun wasn't going to do much until they got closer. I have had that gun since I was 10. I still got shot at, and a few more steps I was opening fire.

 

That is why you alternate buckshot and slugs in a home defense shotgun -- the slugs can easily travel more than the distance of your house. And with 2 shots at that distance, you're going to kill whatever you were shooting at with a 12 gauge, even a 16. The biggest advantage of a shutgun in the home is you dont have to have very good aim...being woken up in the middle of the night, in the dark, during a home break in, getting your gun and loading it can be bad enough...now having to aim when your wits are dulled gives them about the same odds as it gives you. If you need to shoot at that kind of distance, you either live in a mansion, or you're doing something else entirely.

[Balta1701]

That is why you alternate buckshot and slugs in a home defense shotgun -- the slugs can easily travel more than the distance of your house. And with 2 shots at that distance, you're going to kill whatever you were shooting at with a 12 gauge, even a 16. The biggest advantage of a shutgun in the home is you dont have to have very good aim...being woken up in the middle of the night, in the dark, during a home break in, getting your gun and loading it can be bad enough...now having to aim when your wits are dulled gives them about the same odds as it gives you. If you need to shoot at that kind of distance, you either live in a mansion, or you're doing something else entirely.

And I note again the complete lack of consideration of any other way that gun could be used.

 

Never a consideration of an accident, or a suicide, or shooting the wrong person. The only thing that matters is the vigilante fantasy.

[EvilMonkey]

That is why you alternate buckshot and slugs in a home defense shotgun -- the slugs can easily travel more than the distance of your house. And with 2 shots at that distance, you're going to kill whatever you were shooting at with a 12 gauge, even a 16. The biggest advantage of a shutgun in the home is you dont have to have very good aim...being woken up in the middle of the night, in the dark, during a home break in, getting your gun and loading it can be bad enough...now having to aim when your wits are dulled gives them about the same odds as it gives you. If you need to shoot at that kind of distance, you either live in a mansion, or you're doing something else entirely.

I had some deer slugs, but just grabbed the gun and box closest to it in the safe. I usually used the slugs in my old over/under. Got my wife a shotgun with the pistol grip, they also make some low impact shells for that.

[Y2HH]

And I note again the complete lack of consideration of any other way that gun could be used.

 

Never a consideration of an accident, or a suicide, or shooting the wrong person. The only thing that matters is the vigilante fantasy.

 

It's strictly for home defense. Not to carry around, not for any other purpose.

 

Yes, the intention of that kind of weapon is to kill. Period. Like Rambo.

[EvilMonkey]

And I note again the complete lack of consideration of any other way that gun could be used.

 

Never a consideration of an accident, or a suicide, or shooting the wrong person. The only thing that matters is the vigilante fantasy.

You assume that. Could it be that I thought the other needs and wants out-weighed them? Most suicide people don't suddenly decide to do it when a gun is present. Those thoughts and desires are there anyway. Accidents happen.

[Quin]

Look, this issue is very simple IMO.

Restrict the rules on weapons designed to wipe out dozens, hundreds of people at a time. Why the f*** do these weapons need to be out there in society? I mean, grow up, Americans. We don't need weapons of war on our streets and in the hands of mothers who like weapons, weapons that can be stolen by mothers' sons where they kill 20 little angels.

 

Props to you Greg.

[Jenksismyhero]

And I note again the complete lack of consideration of any other way that gun could be used.

 

Never a consideration of an accident, or a suicide, or shooting the wrong person. The only thing that matters is the vigilante fantasy.

 

People consider accidents with guns all the time. That's why you practice gun safety. You act as though people with guns are irresponsible or something, like anyone with a gun eventually shoots someone by accident.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[Steve9347]

I realized that I was outnumbered, but it was better than nothing, and I figured the cops would show up eventually, even if I had to retreat to the basement myself. I did manage to move out 4 months after that. Got a buyer right away since I cut the price pretty cheap, but we wanted out. I also had a driveby happen behind me the day before I was scheduled to move. I ended up on the front lawn of some hose to get out of the way of the speeding car behind me, on the floor of my truck both crying and getting pissed that I was about to be shot the day BEFORE I got out of there. I am so glad to be out of that place. Sauk Village can just forget I ever lived there.

YEah, again, I can see why you'd be passionate about the issue. But let's say 6 bangers bust into your house with guns. If you are unarmed, we hope the worst is they steal some s***, maybe smack you with the gun, and leave. Worst case, everyone dead. Let's say these 6 bangers bust into your house and you draw a gun. I think the chances of everyone being killed raise substantially.

[Jenksismyhero]

YEah, again, I can see why you'd be passionate about the issue. But let's say 6 bangers bust into your house with guns. If you are unarmed, we hope the worst is they steal some s***, maybe smack you with the gun, and leave. Worst case, everyone dead. Let's say these 6 bangers bust into your house and you draw a gun. I think the chances of everyone being killed raise substantially.

 

I would think in that situation, however it plays out, you would (1) not care what happens to the miserable wastes of life entering his house, (2) support any effort by him to protect himself and his family.

 

 

[Y2HH]

YEah, again, I can see why you'd be passionate about the issue. But let's say 6 bangers bust into your house with guns. If you are unarmed, we hope the worst is they steal some s***, maybe smack you with the gun, and leave. Worst case, everyone dead. Let's say these 6 bangers bust into your house and you draw a gun. I think the chances of everyone being killed raise substantially.

 

That's a pretty victim way of looking at things, but whatever.

 

If some f***bags break into my house, I'm going to go down swinging, stabbing, bashing or shooting...to my last dying breath, I'd refuse to accept the idea that "hoping and praying" these people that obviously have no use for the law will "allow me or my family to live". Until they do it to the next family, because people keep letting them get away with it...eventually someone innocents dying. The odds of you dying in that situation are already raised substantially, so at that point, f*** it...and f*** them.