Time to revisit the 2nd Amendment?

[Soxbadger]

The problem with a lot of that is a locked up gun is a useless gun when you have mere seconds to react to the armed robber that just kicked your front door in and started firing off rounds.

 

I think it'd be more responsible if the gun was stolen that you immediately report it as such. If we are going to implement laws, we need to make them effective. Forcing people who own guns to render them useless for the intention of protection isn't effective legislation.

 

I agree that lock/storage may not be the best solution. I am just saying that instead of throwing my hands up in the air saying "no solution criminals will always have guns" that I at least am going to kick around a few ideas.

 

The likely answer is that none of them would absolutely work, but I wont just give up because of the "only criminals will have guns" meme.

[Y2HH]

Well everything is vague when its in the brainstorm stage. I can make things as specific as you want.

 

Gun Ownership Act of 2012

 

1) All guns must be registered yearly.

2) All guns must be purchased legally.

3) All guns must be kept in a locked approved container.

 

Now onto the fun ones:

 

4) All guns must be reported missing within 24 hours of detection.

5) All gun owners with missing guns must file a police report

6) All gun owners with missing guns must allow the police to search their premises.

7) All gun owners who lose more than 1 gun in a 5 year span will have their license to own guns permanently revoked.

 

Failure to follow any of the above listed laws will result in a minimum of X and a maximum of the equivalent sentence of the crime commissioned by the gun.

 

Sincerely,

 

Stalin

 

WE can make sense here all day long...however, WE aren't the ones that implement these laws. The same people who implemented the Patriot Act are.

[Soxbadger]

WE can make sense here all day long...however, WE aren't the ones that implement these laws. The same people who implemented the Patriot Act are.

 

It has to start somewhere. Congressman just do what people tell them. It is our responsibility to effectuate change. That is our social contract.

[Y2HH]

It has to start somewhere. Congressman just do what people tell them. It is our responsibility to effectuate change. That is our social contract.

 

But do they really?

 

I think after they're elected, they mostly do what they want, and on a select few issues they may get called out by their constituents when it comes to them doing something their people didn't want. But more often then not, when it comes to knee-jerk reaction, they get away with a LOT because people are too busy fighting to notice.

[Soxbadger]

But do they really?

 

I think after they're elected, they mostly do what they want, and on a select few issues they may get called out by their constituents when it comes to them doing something their people didn't want. But more often then not, when it comes to knee-jerk reaction, they get away with a LOT because people are too busy fighting to notice.

 

Im trying to be less cynical. But if Americans really started to care and wanted to make changes, Congressman would have to either go for the ride or they would lose their seats. Most candidates dont tell people what to think, they just do what they think people will like the most.

[Y2HH]

Im trying to be less cynical. But if Americans really started to care and wanted to make changes, Congressman would have to either go for the ride or they would lose their seats. Most candidates dont tell people what to think, they just do what they think people will like the most.

 

I agree...but IMO, most people are so disenfranchised they don't care anymore. Not to mention the many that have very short attention spans and when re-election time comes around they've largely forgotten that one time their congressperson did something publicly that angered them.

 

Such is reality in a society driven by sensationalism and reality tv.

[Jenksismyhero]

This is premised on the fact that they did not store their weapons legally, which means that their actions were illegal, aka criminal. I thought you kept saying that there was no way to enforce people keeping their guns properly. So it clearly can be done. Whether or not we want it to be done, is a different argument. But that is where the argument should be, why do we not want people to have to lock guns up. Why do we want people to be able to easily transfer weapons to other people. Why do these have to be allowed?

 

And drug dealer liability act wont make much sense if drugs were legalized.

 

I want ready access to my gun in case of an emergency and I think a lot of gun owners add that to their list of reasons for having a gun. I get there's a reasonable restriction for having to lock up your guns if children are present in the home, but to lock them up all the time is too restrictive IMO. What if you live alone? You still have to buy a gun safe in the random chance your place gets robbed and someone steals your gun?

 

We can legislate the hell out of everything. But history has shown that most of the time all you're doing is punishing the law abiding citizens at the expense of a relatively low change in whatever problem you're trying to cure.

 

I'm fine making it more difficult to purchase guns. I'm fine having to take classes, be certified, wait longer periods of time, whatever. But once you start restricting my use of guns, in my own home no less, I think that goes above and beyond what is acceptable.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[Steve9347]

I'm fine making it more difficult to purchase guns. I'm fine having to take classes, be certified, wait longer periods of time, whatever. But once you start restricting my use of guns, in my own home no less, I think that goes above and beyond what is acceptable.

What do you use your gun for?

[RockRaines]

What do you use your gun for?

I own one but havent used it for anything yet. Hopefully never have to.

[EvilMonkey]

What do you use your gun for?

I am going target shooting after work with my boss.

[Balta1701]

I want ready access to my gun in case of an emergency and I think a lot of gun owners add that to their list of reasons for having a gun. I get there's a reasonable restriction for having to lock up your guns if children are present in the home, but to lock them up all the time is too restrictive IMO. What if you live alone? You still have to buy a gun safe in the random chance your place gets robbed and someone steals your gun?

And here, of course, is the rub for anyone who wants to tell you that having these things is safe.

 

A substantial fraction of the owners will find a way to justify whatever behavior you consider to be unsafe. And the end result is...people will die...But we're not allowed to do anything about it.

[Steve9347]

I keep an aluminum baseball bat under the bed.

[RockRaines]

I keep an aluminum baseball bat under the bed.

LOL, I actually do that too.

 

I also keep a steel door stopper near my front door in case anyone tries to break my bulletproof lock.

 

Seriously, its bulletproof

 

 

http://www.sunnectlock.com/

Edited December 17, 2012 by RockRaines

[Jenksismyhero]

What do you use your gun for?

 

I hunt a fair amount. I have several shotguns and rifles, some at my place, some at my grandparents in Iowa. Occasionally do some sport shooting on their farm. The guns I keep at home were just left out (though somewhat hidden in between book cases in my basement ), unloaded with ammo nearby because that's where I keep it. Now with a little one I have a safe.

 

I don't foresee ever using one in defense of my family or home. I never want to use one in defense of my family or home. But i'm not going to pander to someone else's fear of guns or the random use of guns by criminals/crazy people and let that prevent me from protecting myself and my family if the need arises.

[Soxbadger]

I want ready access to my gun in case of an emergency and I think a lot of gun owners add that to their list of reasons for having a gun. I get there's a reasonable restriction for having to lock up your guns if children are present in the home, but to lock them up all the time is too restrictive IMO. What if you live alone? You still have to buy a gun safe in the random chance your place gets robbed and someone steals your gun?

 

We can legislate the hell out of everything. But history has shown that most of the time all you're doing is punishing the law abiding citizens at the expense of a relatively low change in whatever problem you're trying to cure.

 

I'm fine making it more difficult to purchase guns. I'm fine having to take classes, be certified, wait longer periods of time, whatever. But once you start restricting my use of guns, in my own home no less, I think that goes above and beyond what is acceptable.

 

And therein lies the problem. You want to have quick access to a tool that is extremely dangerous. In all other circumstances it is completely reasonable to restrict quick access to something that is dangerous, but to some guns are the exception. To me they are not. Guns are just a nice bed time story to make you feel safe at night. The night time break in hypothetical is also one of the most dangerous. Its dark, you may have been sleeping, you are now going to arm yourself and make a difference?

 

I just dont get it. I do not expect everyone to be like me, to simply accept that our lives are so random that having a gun likely wont matter. So I go to sleep at night without a gun. And if someone breaks in my house, I have some plans. Maybe theyll kill me, maybe Ill get them. Win some, you lose some.

 

The problem with your justification "in my house" is that you are not willing to accept your gun can be taken from your house, where it becomes my problem. The easy access you desire, also means easy access for a child or criminal.

 

But to answer your question, if I wanted to own a gun and somehow was fearful to the point where I wanted close easy access. I would keep the gun locked in a wall safe or nightstand next to my bed.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Y2HH]

LOL, I actually do that too.

 

I also keep a steel door stopper near my front door in case anyone tries to break my bulletproof lock.

 

Seriously, its bulletproof

 

 

http://www.sunnectlock.com/

 

I have one, too...but the reality is that the door frame is the weak point on any deadbolt. You don't actually try to pick or crack a dead bolt...you kick the door off the frame...it's actually quite easy to do. If you have a heavy hammer (smaller than a sledge) it'll take a few seconds to do it. It'll make noise...but I assume people that are breaking into houses don't much care for the most part.

[Jenksismyhero]

And here, of course, is the rub for anyone who wants to tell you that having these things is safe.

 

A substantial fraction of the owners will find a way to justify whatever behavior you consider to be unsafe. And the end result is...people will die...But we're not allowed to do anything about it.

 

Your fear of being a victim in the cross-fire of a public shootout at the local saloon is ridiculous.

[StrangeSox]

His fear of being a victim of gun violence is no less ridiculous than the argument that we need quick and easy access to loaded weapons for self-defense.

[Jenksismyhero]

And therein lies the problem. You want to have quick access to a tool that is extremely dangerous. In all other circumstances it is completely reasonable to restrict quick access to something that is dangerous, but to some guns are the exception. To me they are not. Guns are just a nice bed time story to make you feel safe at night. The night time break in hypothetical is also one of the most dangerous. Its dark, you may have been sleeping, you are now going to arm yourself and make a difference?

 

I just dont get it. I do not expect everyone to be like me, to simply accept that our lives are so random that having a gun likely wont matter. So I go to sleep at night without a gun. And if someone breaks in my house, I have some plans. Maybe theyll kill me, maybe Ill get them. Win some, you lose some.

 

The problem with your justification "in my house" is that you are not willing to accept your gun can be taken from your house, where it becomes my problem. The easy access you desire, also means easy access for a child or criminal.

 

But to answer your question, if I wanted to own a gun and somehow was fearful to the point where I wanted close easy access. I would keep the gun locked in a wall safe or nightstand next to my bed.

 

And my problem with this has always been that there are an infinite number of dangerous objects that can be used, in the heat of the moment or deliberately, to kill. We all don't live in some strange fear of cars or knives or whatever. The ease of killing doesn't change the fact that if I wanted I can just run people down in my car. Or go around slashing people with a knife like in China.

 

[Balta1701]

And therein lies the problem. You want to have quick access to a tool that is extremely dangerous. In all other circumstances it is completely reasonable to restrict quick access to something that is dangerous, but to some guns are the exception. To me they are not. Guns are just a nice bed time story to make you feel safe at night. The night time break in hypothetical is also one of the most dangerous. Its dark, you may have been sleeping, you are now going to arm yourself and make a difference?

 

I just dont get it. I do not expect everyone to be like me, to simply accept that our lives are so random that having a gun likely wont matter. So I go to sleep at night without a gun. And if someone breaks in my house, I have some plans. Maybe theyll kill me, maybe Ill get them. Win some, you lose some.

 

The problem with your justification "in my house" is that you are not willing to accept your gun can be taken from your house, where it becomes my problem. The easy access you desire, also means easy access for a child or criminal.

 

But to answer your question, if I wanted to own a gun and somehow was fearful to the point where I wanted close easy access. I would keep the gun locked in a wall safe or nightstand next to my bed.

And therein lies the problem with this discussion...it's entirely emotional.

 

Everyone defending guns, except for a few people who are telling us that their neighborhood is as bad as Baghdad, is using an emotional argument. You're right, I'm sure you do feel more secure having it in the house and being able to respond to the unlikely event of an intruder (and yes, an intruder during the night, for virtually everyone in the United States, is an unlikely event).

 

What is getting ignored though? All the other things that can happen. The actual data is being completely ignored in favor of the emotion.

 

The actual numbers say that if you have a gun in the house, you're an order of magnitude more likely to accidentally use it to shoot someone you know, or your family is vastly more likely to use it to hurt themselves, either accidentally or on purpose. The number of successful defenses against home invasions by people with guns is miniscule compared to the number of gun accidents and suicides by people who used a family member's gun.

 

A good comparison is flying/driving. Per mile, you're vastly safer making a trip on a plane than driving...but people get nervous on planes in a way that they don't while driving because they're in control while driving. You have a gun, you get that surge of neurotransmitters...you feel more comfortable, controlled, in power. That is not the case at all, outside of maybe, maybe, maybe the most violent neighborhoods in the country...but that doesn't change how the brain processes it. The brain is making a mistake, but it's a mistake the human brain is designed to make.

 

Humans are really bad at evaluating the actual risk of rare things. We're really bad at evaluating the likelihood of a car accident, but we learn not to be scared of that because we deal with autos in our daily lives and we feel in control. We're really bad at evaluating what changes to the risks to our family having a gun in the house does...but we know we like to be in control, so there is nothing, no bit of data, no forum post, no study, no crime, no tragedy that will change our minds on that.

[Soxbadger]

Your fear of being a victim in the cross-fire of a public shootout at the local saloon is ridiculous.

 

Its not fear. Its common sense.

 

If I invented a protection suit that would guarantee my protection but kill 1 out of every 1million people I walked past, would the govt allow me to wear my suit?

 

The answer in my opinion is no. My safety does not outweigh the potential risk to others safety, even if my safety is guaranteed and their risk is negligible.

[Jenksismyhero]

His fear of being a victim of gun violence is no less ridiculous than the argument that we need quick and easy access to loaded weapons for self-defense.

 

I'm pretty certain the odds would be better that you would need to defend yourself from a robbery or whatever than the odds for being a victim of an escalated public fight that turned concealed carry into a license to kill.

[Balta1701]

I'm pretty certain the odds would be better that you would need to defend yourself from a robbery or whatever than the odds for being a victim of an escalated public fight that turned concealed carry into a license to kill.

Actually, the odds are that if you're a victim of a robbery, you're more likely to get shot if you yourself are carrying a gun. You're safer just giving them your wallet.

[StrangeSox]

Yet we live in some strange fear where we rationalize easy and widespread access to dangerous weapons and fight against any sort of laws to restrict or regulate them, arguing instead that we need more guns in more places and more people should be carrying loaded weapons on them at all times.

 

If guns weren't a much more effective means of killing things than cars or knives, they wouldn't exist. It's silly to argue that they are not extremely good at what they are designed to do.

[BigSqwert]

And my problem with this has always been that there are an infinite number of dangerous objects that can be used, in the heat of the moment or deliberately, to kill. We all don't live in some strange fear of cars or knives or whatever. The ease of killing doesn't change the fact that if I wanted I can just run people down in my car. Or go around slashing people with a knife like in China.

Then just keep a knife on your night stand to protect your family.