Time to revisit the 2nd Amendment?

[Jenksismyhero]

The United States is surrounded by other countries with stricter gun laws and many of the guns used in Mexico are smuggled from the US. Most of the ones seized there are from here.

 

Or just provided by the US government.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

And yet you ignore the article from Australia where homicide and suicides plummeted significantly and there were no more mass shootings after the laws changed.

 

I don't really think there's much of a correlation between gun laws and suicides

[Y2HH]

Getting back on topic...

 

We need to enforce some federal laws on the restriction of automatic weapons, the sale of guns, and the tracking of those guns. On top of that, we need stiffer and ENFORCED penalties when these rules are broken, on a federal, state, or local level.

 

If guns used in crimes are constantly tracked back to a few gun shops (this happens quite often), the sale of those guns needs to be investigated all the way back to the purchaser that will inevitably claim they were stolen from him/her. This person needs to be audited...because more often than not, you're going to find they spent a s***load of money that cannot be account for. People like this need to be held accountable, because they're arming these gangs and being paid to do so. If the investigation shows the guns were actually stolen...so be it...but more often than not, this person was paid to purchase guns and told to say they were "stolen"...follow the f***ing money trail.

 

People found with illegal guns should be jailed. And kept there.

 

And these laws need to be strictly enforced.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Yeah I realize you're not for an all-out ban. But at the end of the day your arguments to ban certain types of guns apply logically to all guns. So apparently even you seem to believe that 10 people dead with a shotgun is acceptable. 26 people dead from an automatic rifle is not. How callous of you.

If at the end of the day my argument to ban certain types of guns apply logically to all guns, why haven't we seen the logical conclusion of that position since the 1936 National Firearms Act? Or the 1984 changes?

 

I believe that we have a serious problem in our society and that we need better public policy to address it. At the same time, contrary to the strawmen, neither I nor anyone else believes that we can eliminate every act of violence in this country. Even with a complete gun ban and successful total confiscation, we would still have some quantity of weapons smuggled in or hand-made and there would still be a few gun deaths. At the same time, we can look to basically every other stable democracy in the world and see that, yeah, it is possible to enact gun control and have positive results.

[southsider2k5]

I don't really think there's much of a correlation between gun laws and suicides

 

Japan is WAY higher than the US, even with those strict gun laws.m Their rate is about double the US.

[StrangeSox]

Or just provided by the US government.

As part of an operation to crack down on illegal Us-to-Mexico arms smuggling that was partially hamstrung by our own gun laws.

[Y2HH]

As part of an operation to crack down on illegal Us-to-Mexico arms smuggling that was partially hamstrung by our own gun laws.

 

Yea, well...that worked out well.

[StrangeSox]

Getting back on topic...

 

We need to enforce some federal laws on the restriction of automatic weapons, the sale of guns, and the tracking of those guns. On top of that, we need stiffer and ENFORCED penalties when these rules are broken, on a federal, state, or local level.

 

These types of restrictions on automatic weapons have been in place for decades and have been very successful. It needs to be extended to all semi-automatic guns if not all guns.

 

[StrangeSox]

Yea, well...that worked out well.

It didn't, but there still seems to be a much bigger problem of US->Mexico than Mexico->US when it comes to guns.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Japan is WAY higher than the US, even with those strict gun laws.m Their rate is about double the US.

 

 

South Korea, Japan, Finland, France, Belgium, Switzerland, New Zealand, Sweden, Norway all are and I'm pretty sure all those countries have much more stringent gun laws

[StrangeSox]

The US is actually fairly low on that list.

 

I can't remember where I read it now, but sometime in the last week on one blog or another, a crisis hotline operator made the comment that people with a gun call before pulling the trigger while, most times, people take pills before calling. With the gun, you essentially have unlimited time to talk them out of it. With the pills, you need to find out where they are and what they took now because every second is vital to saving their lives.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

I'm not talking about a fully automatic weapon.

 

You said it yourself...appropriate use of these weaopns isn't even fully automatic for soldiers. The weapons themselves though, remain killing machines. A person using a semi-automatic Bushmaster rifle walking down the hallway is effectively just as well armed as a soldier in the field. A single shot limit really doesn't change anything.

 

These things are killing machines that put handguns to shame in effectiveness. Particularly for this type of incident.

Honestly, you're going to have to get more specific. A 5.56 round is designed to wound, not kill. But that's not the only ammunition these types of weapons take, and I mean there is really no such thing as an "assault weapon". That label has been bred by a combination of fear mongering media and Call of Duty kids.

 

Are you just talking about weapons that are plastic and/or black? Stuff that's scary looking? I dont get it.

[Reddy]

Honestly, you're going to have to get more specific. A 5.56 round is designed to wound, not kill. But that's not the only ammunition these types of weapons take, and I mean there is really no such thing as an "assault weapon". That label has been bred by a combination of fear mongering media and Call of Duty kids.

 

Are you just talking about weapons that are plastic and/or black? Stuff that's scary looking? I dont get it.

so then why are there 20 dead kids and not 20 wounded kids?

[BigSqwert]

so then why are there 20 dead kids and not 20 wounded kids?

Stop fear mongering.

[Jenksismyhero]

so then why are there 20 dead kids and not 20 wounded kids?

 

Didn't he shoot them all 6-7 times?

[StrangeSox]

A .223 Remington/5.56 NATO is designed to kill. We don't issue our military main battle rifles designed to wound. The 5.56 NATO is a lower-powered round than, say a .30-06 M1 Garand, but the bullet is more likely to tumble and do internal damage whereas the .30-06 will put a hole clean through you. There are criticisms that it isn't good enough at killing on the battle field, but those are criticisms meant to make it more lethal.

[Steve9347]

Tons and tons of guns are smuggled into the US from Mexico, especially automatic weapons. If you'd like to believe otherwise, feel free.

Why does the cartel buy guns from the Sons of Anarchy if they're so easily produced in Mexico!? Come on, think!

[DukeNukeEm]

so then why are there 20 dead kids and not 20 wounded kids?

Because the next largest projectile weapon in the building was a spitball shooter. He was uncontested even with his dumb tacticool AR that miraculously didn't jam after 2 magazines.

[Balta1701]

If guns used in crimes are constantly tracked back to a few gun shops (this happens quite often), the sale of those guns needs to be investigated all the way back to the purchaser that will inevitably claim they were stolen from him/her. This person needs to be audited...because more often than not, you're going to find they spent a s***load of money that cannot be account for. People like this need to be held accountable, because they're arming these gangs and being paid to do so. If the investigation shows the guns were actually stolen...so be it...but more often than not, this person was paid to purchase guns and told to say they were "stolen"...follow the f***ing money trail.

Just to point out again...

 

The Reason why this does not happen is that the FBI is explicitly prohibited from checking in to such matters by Congress.

 

I repeat...the gun fetishists in Congress have specifically told the FBI that they cannot evaluate or share data on gun purchases that would allow law enforcement to figure out if they have a large number of guns used in crimes coming from specific dealers.

[StrangeSox]

Seriously though, there's a huge concern about US guns coming into Mexico, not so much the other way around, at least that I've ever read about. Which makes sense, because we have hundreds of millions of guns, dozens of domestic manufacturers and much looser gun laws than Mexico does (guns are essentially banned in Mexico).

[BigSqwert]

Because the next largest projectile weapon in the building was a spitball shooter. He was uncontested even with his dumb tacticool AR that miraculously didn't jam after 2 magazines.

But you stated that the ammo was designed to wound. They only wound when the shooter is being contested, otherwise they kill? I fail to see your logic.

[DukeNukeEm]

But you stated that the ammo was designed to wound. They only wound when the shooter is being contested, otherwise they kill? I fail to see your logic.

You can kill someone with a BB gun if they're completely defenseless. The 5.56 round is not going to be fatal unless the target is hit in the chest, neck or head.

[BigSqwert]

You can kill someone with a BB gun if they're completely defenseless. The 5.56 round is not going to be fatal unless the target is hit in the chest, neck or head.

26 people were easily killed using this "wound-only" ammo. Your argument has failed.

[DukeNukeEm]

26 people were easily killed using this "wound-only" ammo. Your argument has failed.

A lot more than 26 people have been killed by the AR platform. That doesn't change the intended function of the weapon or how quickly it would lose its killing effectiveness if someone was there to stop this loon.

[StrangeSox]

You can kill someone with a BB gun if they're completely defenseless. The 5.56 round is not going to be fatal unless the target is hit in the chest, neck or head.

 

Being without a gun =! being completely defenseless

 

edit: and the corrollary: being with gun =! always being defended

Edited December 19, 2012 by StrangeSox