Time to revisit the 2nd Amendment?

[Soxbadger]

And I repeat, those were NOT obtained legally. Handguns cannot be sold in Chicago, or registered in Chicago. Thus, anyone with a handgun in Chicago that is not a law enforcement official obtained it illegally and did not register it...illegally.

 

 

This once again is false. You can legally obtain the gun. If I have the proper permit in Texas, I could go to Texas and buy a gun that is not legal in IL. Therefore I legally obtained the gun.

 

This is the problem. If you have X city where you cant buy pistols, but Y city next door, you just go to Y city to buy them.

 

You keep bringing up drugs, but that is just a false equivalency. Illegal drugs are harder to obtain than legal drugs. When I was a kid and wanted drugs I needed to find a dealer, hope he was legit, hope he didnt rip me off, etc, etc. When I was a kid and wanted alcohol I simply stole it from a store or a parent.

 

If guns are legal in any sense, they are easier for criminals to get. Every person who is a criminal understands this. Especially because smart criminals have accomplices who can buy the guns legally and then give it to the other person. Its not a very difficult system when the item you want is legal and its simply how to obtain it.

 

It is actually much harder to get something off the black market. And the other part that no one wants to mention is that guns are very sophisticated tools to create. You cant just grow a gun in a forest. You cant cook up a batch of guns in an rv. They take factories, they take raw materials that can be traced.

 

IIRC the vast majority of prohibition alcohol was smuggled in, not made in bathtubs. The same would happen with guns. Ok so fine, maybe you make a dent on the random killings (which are still rare and random) but you're not stopping these major tragedies.

 

You really dont know that. If this guy could not have gotten a weapon, maybe he doesnt kill anyone.

 

You have to acknowledge the fact that all of the criminals who will easily obtain guns on the black market, are generally not buying them so they can commit a mass murder. They are buying them for criminal enterprise, so their entire system is to keep it unknown. The last thing you want is some guy taking your black market gun and killing 30 children. You will be caught.

 

That is another part of the black market, sellers dont just sell to anyone. They arent going to risk hundreds of thousands of dollars of business on a single weapon sale.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Soxbadger

[clyons]

Technical distinctions appreciated, but my point was that they are not exactly Wyatt Earp type six-shooters. They are high-performance, high-repeaters that hold clips.

[Y2HH]

So? Someone who's snapped but still has easy access to guns can easily do those sorts of things that someone who's snapped but does not have easy access to guns cannot. You don't need to plan something like this out if you have the guns laying around already just because.

 

Here is where I agree with you.

 

I do think guns laws/restrictions can work if enforced properly. From purchase to registration. But the penalties on illegally obtained or legally obtained guns that are then brought into areas with restrictions on that type (think Chicago with hand guns), and not registered need to be much much more severe.

[Wanne]

Remember when you said the same sort of crap after the Aurora, CO shootings, about how it was to swing votes for some UN resolution? Remember how wrong that was?

 

Unfortunately...I don't think I was wrong. The common agenda has been strict gun control. The UN Resolution will re-emerge next year I'm pretty sure...but the agenda is for a disarmament and strict gun control in the United States that can be justified. I truly hate these discussions. And for the record...I AM for a strict gun control. Better restrictions for purchases, etc...but bottom line is you can restrict "assault weapons" and semiautomatic pistols all you want...guns will still be out there. It's just sad that it's these kinds of events that have to get the ball rolling.

[Y2HH]

Technical distinctions appreciated, but my point was that they are not exactly Wyatt Earp type six-shooters. They are high-performance, high-repeaters that hold clips.

 

Magazines.

[Y2HH]

This once again is false. You can legally obtain the gun. If I have the proper permit in Texas, I could go to Texas and buy a gun that is not legal in IL. Therefore I legally obtained the gun.

 

This is the problem. If you have X city where you cant buy pistols, but Y city next door, you just go to Y city to buy them.

 

You keep bringing up drugs, but that is just a false equivalency. Illegal drugs are harder to obtain than legal drugs. When I was a kid and wanted drugs I needed to find a dealer, hope he was legit, hope he didnt rip me off, etc, etc. When I was a kid and wanted alcohol I simply stole it from a store or a parent.

 

If guns are legal in any sense, they are easier for criminals to get. Every person who is a criminal understands this. Especially because smart criminals have accomplices who can buy the guns legally and then give it to the other person. Its not a very difficult system when the item you want is legal and its simply how to obtain it.

 

It is actually much harder to get something off the black market. And the other part that no one wants to mention is that guns are very sophisticated tools to create. You cant just grow a gun in a forest. You cant cook up a batch of guns in an rv. They take factories, they take raw materials that can be traced.

 

 

 

You really dont know that. If this guy could not have gotten a weapon, maybe he doesnt kill anyone.

 

You have to acknowledge the fact that all of the criminals who will easily obtain guns on the black market, are generally not buying them so they can commit a mass murder. They are buying them for criminal enterprise, so their entire system is to keep it unknown. The last thing you want is some guy taking your black market gun and killing 30 children. You will be caught.

 

That is another part of the black market, sellers dont just sell to anyone. They arent going to risk hundreds of thousands of dollars of business on a single weapon sale.

 

You can legally obtain it, but you CANNOT legally bring it into Chicago, nor can you legally register it...so no, it's not false...you just didn't read my entire post.

 

And I fully understand you point on legally obtaining it elsewhere...but then you're ignoring the proceeding criminal activity of transporting it to an area where its not legal and cannot be legally registered. This makes the entire process ILLEGAL.

 

I understand your point it's too easy to obtain that way, and it should be made harder, but it also highlights that these people are ignoring the laws anyway.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

And the other part that no one wants to mention is that guns are very sophisticated tools to create.

edit: I can make bathtub gin or beer or wine on my own pretty easily. my great-grandparents built a home in Kankakee to do exactly that! fermenting fruit or grain isn't that difficult. owning a machine shop and building guns is considerably more complex.

 

[Soxbadger]

You can legally obtain it, but you CANNOT legally bring it into Chicago, nor can you legally register it...so no, it's not false...you just didn't read my entire post.

 

I read your correction, but I wanted to clearly destroy that myth. When I read through the thread it truly is shocking how many people 1) dont even know the laws and 2) think that they have some great understanding of criminal behavior when they themselves are not really criminals.

 

Strange Sox,

 

I meant that people who claim you cant control guns. People who claim you can do use that argument.

[Y2HH]

I read your correction, but I wanted to clearly destroy that myth. When I read through the thread it truly is shocking how many people 1) dont even know the laws and 2) think that they have some great understanding of criminal behavior when they themselves are not really criminals.

 

Strange Sox,

 

I meant that people who claim you cant control guns. People who claim you can do use that argument.

 

I made an edit to that...just in case you missed it.

 

Here was the edit:

 

And I fully understand your point on legally obtaining it elsewhere...but then you're ignoring the proceeding criminal activity of transporting it to an area where its not legal and cannot be legally registered. This makes the entire process ILLEGAL.

 

I understand your point it's too easy to obtain that way, and it should be made harder, but it also highlights that these people are ignoring the laws anyway.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Y2HH

[3E8]

IIRC the vast majority of prohibition alcohol was smuggled in, not made in bathtubs. The same would happen with guns. Ok so fine, maybe you make a dent on the random killings (which are still rare and random) but you're not stopping these major tragedies.

I still think there's a big difference in cost and difficulty of manufacturing/transporting arms and ammunition compared to alcohol and drugs. According to this, there are over 50 armament manufacturers in the USA. There are four in Canada, one in Mexico. The black market definitely exists, and would have to be met by suppliers overseas, but it would produce a more limited supply. If it reduced firearm homicide in the USA by 20%, then over 2,000 less lives are lost each year using the current rate of death.

[StrangeSox]

IIRC there's a .223 rifle involved as well

 

which, .223 + body armor = any moron making some sort of "gun free zones"/teachers should be armed argument needs to be hit in the face with something heavy.

 

like whichever moron made this:

 

 

ugh gun fetishists are so awful

[Jenksismyhero]

So? Someone who's snapped but still has easy access to guns can easily do those sorts of things that someone who's snapped but does not have easy access to guns cannot. You don't need to plan something like this out if you have the guns laying around already just because.

 

Ok, so you agree with me that restrictions won't do anything because people can just snap anyway. So the only solution is an outright ban, which will never happen.

[Y2HH]

It's just a very complex issue...I wish guns were never created...I really do. :/

[Wanne]

You can legally obtain it, but you CANNOT legally bring it into Chicago, nor can you legally register it...so no, it's not false...you just didn't read my entire post.

 

And I fully understand you point on legally obtaining it elsewhere...but then you're ignoring the proceeding criminal activity of transporting it to an area where its not legal and cannot be legally registered. This makes the entire process ILLEGAL.

 

I understand your point it's too easy to obtain that way, and it should be made harder, but it also highlights that these people are ignoring the laws anyway.

 

 

So what you're saying is even if you have a FOID card and follow the STATE LAWS of ownership and transportation...Chicago laws supercede state laws?!? News to me...but I don't live there. I live in AZ where open carry is allowed with no need for any CCW permits.

[Soxbadger]

I understand your point it's too easy to obtain that way, and it should be made harder, but it also highlights that these people are ignoring the laws anyway.

 

The problem is that people respond to this with the "if we restrict it, then only people who follow the laws will be restricted."

 

You need to take into account that criminals live in the same world as we do, and if something is easier for a non-criminal to get, it is also easier for a criminal to get.

 

Its not like when your a criminal you get a special circular in the mail where you can order illegal items. Even when you have years of connections it can be hard to get exactly what you want on at a moments notice.

 

To use the earlier example, if I wanted alcohol or cocaine and I was a criminal, alcohol would be millions of times easier.

[StrangeSox]

I still think there's a big difference in cost and difficulty of manufacturing/transporting arms and ammunition compared to alcohol and drugs. According to this, there are over 50 armament manufacturers in the USA. There are four in Canada, one in Mexico. The black market definitely exists, and would have to be met by suppliers overseas, but it would produce a more limited supply. If it reduced firearm homicide in the USA by 20%, then over 2,000 less lives are lost each year using the current rate of death.

 

Right, as much as we rightly all point and laugh at how terribly ineffective alcohol prohibition was, estimates are that it cut consumption by 70%. If we could knock down gun deaths and injuries in this country by 30%, that would be pretty damn good.

[witesoxfan]

How can you say that with any sort of certainty? You have no idea if this guy just snapped today, grabbed his legally owned guns, and went shooting.

 

Who randomly just "snaps" and starts shooting people? In like 99.9% of these cases, there is something not right with the person that breeds this reaction. That's what the yearly mental aptitude test would be for.

[Quin]

It's just a very complex issue...I wish guns were never created...I really do. :/

 

+∞

[Jenksismyhero]

I still think there's a big difference in cost and difficulty of manufacturing/transporting arms and ammunition compared to alcohol and drugs. According to this, there are over 50 armament manufacturers in the USA. There are four in Canada, one in Mexico. The black market definitely exists, and would have to be met by suppliers overseas, but it would produce a more limited supply. If it reduced firearm homicide in the USA by 20%, then over 2,000 less lives are lost each year using the current rate of death.

 

You can't make that assumption because people will still end up killing people, they'll just do it a different way.

[StrangeSox]

Who randomly just "snaps" and starts shooting people? In like 99.9% of these cases, there is something not right with the person that breeds this reaction. That's what the yearly mental aptitude test would be for.

 

Right, people with schzophrenia or some other disorder snap.

 

A yearly required mental health screening would help, but what if it was dad's guns he got a hold of?

[Soxbadger]

You can't make that assumption because people will still end up killing people, they'll just do it a different way.

 

This line of argument works both ways.

 

You cant make the assumption that this tragedy would have occurred today even if there were no guns.

 

It may have happened, it could have been OKC, but its an assumption on both sides.

[Jenksismyhero]

Right, as much as we rightly all point and laugh at how terribly ineffective alcohol prohibition was, estimates are that it cut consumption by 70%. If we could knock down gun deaths and injuries in this country by 30%, that would be pretty damn good.

 

Can you find the same statistic for drugs? Because alcohol consumption was insane right before prohibition, and a lot of what curbed that was education and the rise of groups against drinking. There was a bunch of PR campaigns like "if you drink you're killing your family" type stuff.

 

Of course, with that reduction in drinking, came the explosion of crime.

[StrangeSox]

You can't make that assumption because people will still end up killing people, they'll just do it a different way.

 

It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun.

[Wanne]

Who randomly just "snaps" and starts shooting people? In like 99.9% of these cases, there is something not right with the person that breeds this reaction. That's what the yearly mental aptitude test would be for.

 

This is part of my point. They're usually some loner person without many friends...just seems really coincidental...instead of Joe Blow who's been doing the same mundane job sorting mail for years and snaps on his boss. Who effin' does this kind of stuff?

[RockRaines]

This line of argument works both ways.

 

You cant make the assumption that this tragedy would have occurred today even if there were no guns.

 

It may have happened, it could have been OKC, but its an assumption on both sides.

Then whydoes the US constantly have one of the highest homicides rates of civilized first world countries? The UK and Europe overall have about 25% of the homicide rate. WHy is that?