Sox seeking LH bat

[Balta1701]

And fangraphs WAR is the end all. Instead of standings, they should just add up all WARs and pass out trophies. The fact is if AJ hit .215 with a .275 OBP but threw out runners just like Karkovice used to, you would say he sucked. AJ was a good player for the Sox and had an impact far beyond numbers. The fact that he kept some of his back ups off the field alone should be appreciated.

Of course that raises the question...how much of that was AJ being stubborn and insisting he needed to be in the lineup even on days when he shouldn't have been? Could the Sox have benefited by his backups playing some extra games some of those years, particularly when he had good backups like Castro or the Widge?

 

Again, must qualify that I liked AJ. But that doesn't mean every defense of him makes sense.

[Dick Allen]

Of course that raises the question...how much of that was AJ being stubborn and insisting he needed to be in the lineup even on days when he shouldn't have been? Could the Sox have benefited by his backups playing some extra games some of those years, particularly when he had good backups like Castro or the Widge?

 

Again, must qualify that I liked AJ. But that doesn't mean every defense of him makes sense.

Again AJ didn't make out the line up card. When Widger was useful, the Sox won the WS so I don't think there was an overplay there. Castro had one good year as a back up, but if he played more, chances are he would have been exposed checking out the rest of his career. He was awful his first season with the Sox and injured his last.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Again AJ didn't make out the line up card.

So he gets credit for going out there so often, but we can't criticize him if he should have taken more time off?

[Dick Allen]

So he gets credit for going out there so often, but we can't criticize him if he should have taken more time off?

Why did he need more time off? You want to criticize him foe making a decision that wasn't his to make. The fact that he could answer e bell for so many games is something to admire, like Buehrle going 200 innings every year.why didn't anyone ever post what a selfish asshole Buehle was for making his starts? It wouldn't take much for AJ to beg out of a start. He didn't do that.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Instead of assuming the worst for every current Sox player, why don't you go look up the stats yourself? It's been said here a lot already, Flowers put up some really good numbers in the minors.

 

He also put up his best numbers on the season while AJ was out, and Flowers played for a solid stretch.

[Balta1701]

Why did he need more time off? You want to criticize him foe making a decision that wasn't his to make. The fact that he could answer e bell for so many games is something to admire, like Buehrle going 200 innings every year.why didn't anyone ever post what a selfish asshole Buehle was for making his starts? It wouldn't take much for AJ to beg out of a start. He didn't do that.

A guy going 0/8 when he could have taken a day off is no more useful than a starter giving up 8 runs in 2 innings because his arm is wearing out.

 

You know, I really hate this. I liked AJ. But I get why they let him go, and so I wind up having to reply to these crazed statements about why he's irreplaceable and we're doomed now. So, I'm stuck having to point out how a guy who was key to winning us a ring wasn't God's gift to baseball, and being the negative guy on him.

[TaylorStSox]

Btw, I'll take a plus defensive catcher with pop over a poor defender who hits for average all day, everyday.

[Dick Allen]

A guy going 0/8 when he could have taken a day off is no more useful than a starter giving up 8 runs in 2 innings because his arm is wearing out.

 

You know, I really hate this. I liked AJ. But I get why they let him go, and so I wind up having to reply to these crazed statements about why he's irreplaceable and we're doomed now. So, I'm stuck having to point out how a guy who was key to winning us a ring wasn't God's gift to baseball, and being the negative guy on him.

I' m not saying that at all,but I was responding to the AJ was always worthless posts. He was a valuable guy to have on the team. Personally, I'm not sold on Flowers at all, and I think the catcher position has been downgraded especially if they are serious about Gimenez as the back up. I do understand not throwing a lot of money at AJ, but the AJ hate is ridiculous.

[southsider2k5]

I' m not saying that at all,but I was responding to the AJ was always worthless posts. He was a valuable guy to have on the team. Personally, I'm not sold on Flowers at all, and I think the catcher position has been downgraded especially if they are serious about Gimenez as the back up. I do understand not throwing a lot of money at AJ, but the AJ hate is ridiculous.

 

Who exactly called AJ "worthless"?

[TaylorStSox]

Who exactly called AJ "worthless"?

I've never called him worthless, just overrated and unlikable. I rooted for him, as I did all White Sox that were assholes.

[Dick Allen]

Who exactly called AJ "worthless"?

See post 175

[Princess Dye]

Just to chime in:

 

It is possible to appreciate everything AJ did here, and just not particularly care for him personally or whatever. His persona or whatever aside, he's a professional and would actually probably prefer to be treated objectively as a professional than to have your undying blind worship. Not calling anyone out in particular, just chiming in

Edited December 27, 2012 by Jose Paniagua

[southsider2k5]

WAR isn't the end all, but when your best attribute is in intangibles, you better be damn good defensively. AJ was mediocre to awful during his tenure.

 

 

See post 175

 

He was awful defensively.

[knightni]

Flowers has a better arm and similar power, imo. He just has to manage the pitchers better and be more selective at the plate. He'll be fine.

[SI1020]

He managed to produce a higher WAR than AJ. WAR doesn't account for grinderism though.

You won't give that one up will you? When you factor in years on the team and games played AJ outperformed Karkovice in the sanctified and hallowed WAR category. I liked Karkovice a lot. He was a defensive marvel behind the plate. I don't think AJ was terrible defensively, just not very good. If you could get have someone with AJ's hitting and the Officer's defensive prowess that would be a helluva catcher. Flowers is a definite upgrade over AJ behind the plate, but not on the level of Karkovice. Or Fisk and Lollar for that matter. He's also another all or nothing strike out machine that has given me no indication whatsoever that he can hit well enough to be worth it.

[TaylorStSox]

You won't give that one up will you? When you factor in years on the team and games played AJ outperformed Karkovice in the sanctified and hallowed WAR category. I liked Karkovice a lot. He was a defensive marvel behind the plate. I don't think AJ was terrible defensively, just not very good. If you could get have someone with AJ's hitting and the Officer's defensive prowess that would be a helluva catcher. Flowers is a definite upgrade over AJ behind the plate, but not on the level of Karkovice. Or Fisk and Lollar for that matter. He's also another all or nothing strike out machine that has given me no indication whatsoever that he can hit well enough to be worth it.

No, I won't. Not when a player is vastly overrated despite popular opinion. Especially when the numbers tell a different story. For a catcher, I value defense first. In his best years, AJ was mediocre behind the plate. He framed pitches well, created a nice target and called a good game. Over the last few years, he's been horrid. Even this year, despite the huge rise in numbers, I felt that he was a liability more often than not. He wasn't only awful defensively, his pitch calling was suspect and he showed up at least 3 players during a game. That's just unacceptable, imo.

[macsandz]

The issue with Cole Tyler Flowers is that while he may be a decent catcher as far as an MLB average goes, offensively he may be a bad fit for THIS team going forward. His contact rate is low and that is once again looking like a prevalent issue for White Sox hitters on the current roster and definitely throughout the system. Rick is aware of this and Keppinger is a good indication of his approach which I think is good sign. The lack of quality contact hitters in the Sox minors is terrifying.

[knightni]

The issue with Cole Tyler Flowers is that while he may be a decent catcher as far as an MLB average goes, offensively he may be a bad fit for THIS team going forward. His contact rate is low and that is once again looking like a prevalent issue for White Sox hitters on the current roster and definitely throughout the system. Rick is aware of this and Keppinger is a good indication of his approach which I think is good sign. The lack of quality contact hitters in the Sox minors is terrifying.

If you're Hahn and you're relying on the catching position for increased contact rate, then you've clearly ignored the team's hitting problems.

 

Juan Pierre had good contact rate, yet he's long gone. I think you need gap power in USCF - not just dink and dunk hitters - to succeed.

[macsandz]

If you're Hahn and you're relying on the catching position for increased contact rate, then you've clearly ignored the team's hitting problems.

 

Juan Pierre had good contact rate, yet he's long gone. I think you need gap power in USCF - not just dink and dunk hitters - to succeed.

 

As it looks now, I think that the lack of contact IS one of this team's glaring hitting problems.

 

It's not so much a reliance on Flowers for contact, it's that he is replacing AJ who was one of the very few hitters in that lineup that consistently put the ball in play.

[hogan873]

The one thing I can't get past in the Flowers debate is that he has not had a chance to play full time and prove he can be a good starting catcher. I'm sorry to see AJ go, too, but the move makes sense. Paying AJ more than $7.5MM for one year just because Flowers is unproven does not make sense. If July comes around, and Flowers is hitting .190 with a handful of homeruns, the Sox will have to make a decision and a move to improve the position. But right now, what else can the Sox do? Look at what some of the other catchers are getting paid. AJ is most likely overpaid for 2013. I personally think Flowers will be fine. He's not going to hit .300, but he's a good defensive catcher with a lot of power.

 

Plus, as this thread is regarding the Sox looking for a LH bat, the money saved by not re-signing AJ can be used to pay for that bat if it comes down to that.

[beck72]

The issue with Cole Tyler Flowers is that while he may be a decent catcher as far as an MLB average goes, offensively he may be a bad fit for THIS team going forward. His contact rate is low and that is once again looking like a prevalent issue for White Sox hitters on the current roster and definitely throughout the system. Rick is aware of this and Keppinger is a good indication of his approach which I think is good sign. The lack of quality contact hitters in the Sox minors is terrifying.

Having Flowers as the everyday C fits in with the Sox looking for a LH bat. That may be why other RH bats may be dealt either now or a year. the sox need at C, defense and decent production, is more important than specific aspects of hitting, such as LH or RH, contact, power, OBP, etc. Good catchers are hard to find, regardless. Improving the offense has to come from other spots. Alexei is similar. His defense sort of makes his offense moot. You live with his hitting flaws because of his value defensively. IMO, Flowers should hit closer to his numbers in the minors rather than what he's hit in the bigs, with consistent playing time.

 

Yet the sox can't expect that same "growth" for 2nd, LF, and 3b next year too. We've waited on Beckham and its probably his last shot with us. Vicideo should get some leeway--but a solid case could be made to sell high on his projected growth. Yet long term he may not be a solid fit. Keppinger is supposed to help fix some of the problem. But far more needs to be done. You are right about the lack of quality contact hitters in the minors for the Sox. Yet the sox lack quality hitters, contact or otherwise. Any trades should help address that, ESP. In the high minors. The sox leave themselves open to gaping holes should key guys go down or regress. Only Sanchez projects as a possible replacement in 2013.

Edited December 27, 2012 by beck72

[witesoxfan]

The one thing I can't get past in the Flowers debate is that he has not had a chance to play full time and prove he can be a good starting catcher. I'm sorry to see AJ go, too, but the move makes sense. Paying AJ more than $7.5MM for one year just because Flowers is unproven does not make sense. If July comes around, and Flowers is hitting .190 with a handful of homeruns, the Sox will have to make a decision and a move to improve the position. But right now, what else can the Sox do? Look at what some of the other catchers are getting paid. AJ is most likely overpaid for 2013. I personally think Flowers will be fine. He's not going to hit .300, but he's a good defensive catcher with a lot of power.

 

Plus, as this thread is regarding the Sox looking for a LH bat, the money saved by not re-signing AJ can be used to pay for that bat if it comes down to that.

 

The one thing I can't get past is all of the above, but then that people have already written him off. This is far closer to an Alejandro De Aza situation than it is a DeWayne Wise situation.

[Dick Allen]

The one thing I can't get past is all of the above, but then that people have already written him off. This is far closer to an Alejandro De Aza situation than it is a DeWayne Wise situation.

Its actually much closer to the Josh Fields situation. Many on this board were up in arms in 2008 when Crede was made the regular 3B. If you can't make contact in the minors, things tend to get a lot worse in the majors. If anything, Flowers defense has been overrated. Reading this board you would think he's some sort of defensive combination of Johnny Bench, Ivan Rodriquez and Benito Santiago.

[hogan873]

The one thing I can't get past is all of the above, but then that people have already written him off. This is far closer to an Alejandro De Aza situation than it is a DeWayne Wise situation.

As far as the catcher position, I'm more concerned about a back-up for Flowers. I don't know that the Sox necessarily want a LH hitting back-up or if that even matters. If Flowers is going to get 80%+ of the starts, I suppose it doesn't matter if the back-up bats from the opposite batters box. However, I don't want it to be a sure out every time the catcher comes to bat when Flowers isn't playing.

[witesoxfan]

Its actually much closer to the Josh Fields situation. Many on this board were up in arms in 2008 when Crede was made the regular 3B. If you can't make contact in the minors, things tend to get a lot worse in the majors. If anything, Flowers defense has been overrated. Reading this board you would think he's some sort of defensive combination of Johnny Bench, Ivan Rodriquez and Benito Santiago.

 

Except that Flowers can hit a fastball.

 

---

 

 

f*** it. If you guys are going to be so butthurt about losing AJ that you won't even give Flowers a chance, then so be it. I'm looking forward to a change in the White Sox lineup - lord knows new blood is exciting, and beyond any of that, the Sox were never going to spend $7.5 million on AJ. If you can't look past the fact that the organization is looking to allocate funds elsewhere while trying to build towards the future while also being happy AJ ended up in a situation that is good for him both financially and professionally, then you are very short-sighted. I'm done with this stupid debate.