Dick Allen Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:25 AM) Except that Flowers can hit a fastball. --- f*** it. If you guys are going to be so butthurt about losing AJ that you won't even give Flowers a chance, then so be it. I'm looking forward to a change in the White Sox lineup - lord knows new blood is exciting, and beyond any of that, the Sox were never going to spend $7.5 million on AJ. If you can't look past the fact that the organization is looking to allocate funds elsewhere while trying to build towards the future while also being happy AJ ended up in a situation that is good for him both financially and professionally, then you are very short-sighted. I'm done with this stupid debate. You are taking this wrong. Losing AJ is fine, as long as he's replaced adaquately. It could be a disaster if they think Flowers/Gimenez is the answer. Flowers started 41 games last year. He had to be lifted for a pinch hitter 10 times. I know he was great in Birmingham several years ago. That doesn't make him a star. If they aren't looking for a catcher now, there's a good chance they will be in May or June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:35 AM) You are taking this wrong. Losing AJ is fine, as long as he's replaced adaquately. It could be a disaster if they think Flowers/Gimenez is the answer. Flowers started 41 games last year. He had to be lifted for a pinch hitter 10 times. I know he was great in Birmingham several years ago. That doesn't make him a star. If they aren't looking for a catcher now, there's a good chance they will be in May or June. You'll never know until you give him a chance. You also changed your tone quite a bit in that post from most of the others in the thread. On top of that, I doubt they go into the season with merely Gimenez. I don't believe he is an adequate backup. You want someone who has started in the past so, at the very least, you have an insurance policy. Edited December 27, 2012 by witesoxfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:25 AM) Except that Flowers can hit a fastball. --- f*** it. If you guys are going to be so butthurt about losing AJ that you won't even give Flowers a chance, then so be it. I'm looking forward to a change in the White Sox lineup - lord knows new blood is exciting, and beyond any of that, the Sox were never going to spend $7.5 million on AJ. If you can't look past the fact that the organization is looking to allocate funds elsewhere while trying to build towards the future while also being happy AJ ended up in a situation that is good for him both financially and professionally, then you are very short-sighted. I'm done with this stupid debate. Yeah, I really haven't seen posters saying Flowers is a superstar defensively, but rather he's better than AJ. I have no doubt the Sox will lose some production offensively, but we all have to remember that 2012 AJ never happened before and most likely will never happen again. The Sox can (and most likely will) take the money saved by not signing AJ and use it to fill other holes. The catcher position was the one that was probably the easiest to fill from within. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:37 AM) You'll never know until you give him a chance. You also changed your tone quite a bit in that post from most of the others in the thread. On top of that, I doubt they go into the season with merely Gimenez. I don't believe he is an adequate backup. You want someone who has started in the past so, at the very least, you have an insurance policy. Haven't changed my tone at all. I will defend AJ vs. all the haters. I believe he will be missed far more than his numbers would indicate. I understand not paying a 36 year old catcher a ton of money. If it were my decision, I would have brought him back on a one year if he would have taken it. Maybe they have other moves in mind. I do think most of the Tyler Flowers love will be gone this time next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:35 AM) You are taking this wrong. Losing AJ is fine, as long as he's replaced adaquately. It could be a disaster if they think Flowers/Gimenez is the answer. Flowers started 41 games last year. He had to be lifted for a pinch hitter 10 times. I know he was great in Birmingham several years ago. That doesn't make him a star. If they aren't looking for a catcher now, there's a good chance they will be in May or June. My guess is that they are waiting to see how Flowers does before looking for a replacement/platoon partner. Other than Salty (via trade) or Olivo, who could they go after and not spend a lot of money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:41 AM) Haven't changed my tone at all. I will defend AJ vs. all the haters. I believe he will be missed far more than his numbers would indicate. I understand not paying a 36 year old catcher a ton of money. If it were my decision, I would have brought him back on a one year if he would have taken it. Maybe they have other moves in mind. I do think most of the Tyler Flowers love will be gone this time next year. I think there's one "hater," and even he has merely said that AJ is overrated. I think you're blowing this a little out of proportion. I could see Flowers busting, but I've liked what I've seen out of him. I think he's going to be a valuable member of the team next year. I think his style of play will frustrate some who will still want him gone even with a .750+ OPS. QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:43 AM) My guess is that they are waiting to see how Flowers does before looking for a replacement/platoon partner. Other than Salty (via trade) or Olivo, who could they go after and not spend a lot of money? See what Fisk is doing. He's only 65. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) The one thing I can't get past is all of the above, but then that people have already written him off. This is far closer to an Alejandro De Aza situation than it is a DeWayne Wise situation. That's a great point. Actually, I'm more comfortable getting less offensive production from the C's spot than CF (and hitting leadoff), as long as he can handle the staff and be an improvement defensively over AJ. De Aza actually was more of a gamble to me last year than Flowers is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 If Flowers is asked to start a lot of games against RHP, it wouldn't shock me if he hits under .200 this year. Hopefully he'll hit enough homers and walk enough to get his OPS into a decent territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 He doesn't have to be AJ. The game played on our minds this year is going to be "well he's no AJ"...and hopefully he can fight through that. I guess in ways that Brian Anderson and Josh Fields couldn't. Replacing someone takes talent, luck..AND a little above average mental fortitude, I would think. That first year. Lets remember, in 2005...we didn't necessarily replace Carlos Lee with anyone 1 for 1. We filled his production over a variety of spots on the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I already feel bad for the prospect who has to replace Konerko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Flowers has no value, outside of being a decent backup for half a season. I hope we're wrong, but, I agree 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I' m not saying that at all,but I was responding to the AJ was always worthless posts. He was a valuable guy to have on the team. Personally, I'm not sold on Flowers at all, and I think the catcher position has been downgraded especially if they are serious about Gimenez as the back up. I do understand not throwing a lot of money at AJ, but the AJ hate is ridiculous. Right on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) Except that Flowers can hit a fastball. f*** it. If you guys are going to be so butthurt about losing AJ that you won't even give Flowers a chance, then so be it. I'm looking forward to a change in the White Sox lineup - lord knows new blood is exciting, and beyond any of that, the Sox were never going to spend $7.5 million on AJ. If you can't look past the fact that the organization is looking to allocate funds elsewhere while trying to build towards the future while also being happy AJ ended up in a situation that is good for him both financially and professionally, then you are very short-sighted. I'm done with this stupid debate. I'll hold off any more criticism until I see if/how the $7.5 million is re-allocated Edited December 27, 2012 by Lamar Johnson 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Naturally, a poor/cheap owner shot. Nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 08:16 AM) Reading this board you would think he's some sort of defensive combination of Johnny Bench, Ivan Rodriquez and Benito Santiago. No. Reading this board, you'd get the impression that his defense is better than AJ's, which it is. The only person that has classified him as some sort of defensive god is you with your exaggeration. Like I've said before, the catchers position is certainly going to take a hit in production from 2012 to 2013 but it wouldn't surprise me if the Tyler Flowers of 2013 is more valuable than the AJ Pierzynski of 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) Naturally, a poor/cheap owner shot. Nice. I didn't say that...I said I'd wait and see if/how the $7.5 million is re-allocated. The Sox of 12/27/2012 have some holes to fill; let's see if/how they're filled. BTW, on ESPN.COM baseball "power rankings", the Sox are currently ranked 23rd in MLB, 1 slot ahead of the Cubzzz. I guess I'm not the only one who hasn't seen much improvement on the South Side this off season. Edited December 27, 2012 by Lamar Johnson 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 09:41 AM) I didn't say that...I said I'd wait and see if/how the $7.5 million is re-allocated. The Sox of 12/27/2012 have some holes to fill; let's see if/how they're filled. BTW, on ESPN.COM baseball "power rankings", the Sox are currently ranked 23rd in MLB, 1 slot ahead of the Cubzzz. I guess I'm not the only one who hasn't seen much improvement on the South Side this off season. If we've learned anything over the years, it's that ESPN's thoughts on the Sox are almost always correct! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 09:41 AM) I didn't say that...I said I'd wait and see if/how the $7.5 million is re-allocated. The Sox of 12/27/2012 have some holes to fill; let's see if/how they're filled. BTW, on ESPN.COM baseball "power rankings", the Sox are currently ranked 23rd in MLB, 1 slot ahead of the Cubzzz. I guess I'm not the only one who hasn't seen much improvement on the South Side this off season. It's certainly possible they won't spend it on the MLB team. There's still some offseason left and some solid players still available. It's also possible they allocate it towards the draft and the international free agent scene. I'd be OK with that too. They might save it for moves come midseason. And I'm glad you're checking the power rankings on December 27th. Must be weird seeing the 23rd ranked team have the same record as the 1st and 30th ranked teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 09:41 AM) Haven't changed my tone at all. I will defend AJ vs. all the haters. I believe he will be missed far more than his numbers would indicate. I understand not paying a 36 year old catcher a ton of money. If it were my decision, I would have brought him back on a one year if he would have taken it. Maybe they have other moves in mind. I do think most of the Tyler Flowers love will be gone this time next year. I'd be willing to bet you a 6 pack of your favorite beer that Flowers out-produces AJ next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 It's certainly possible they won't spend it on the MLB team. There's still some offseason left and some solid players still available. It's also possible they allocate it towards the draft and the international free agent scene. I'd be OK with that too. They might save it for moves come midseason. And I'm glad you're checking the power rankings on December 27th. Must be weird seeing the 23rd ranked team have the same record as the 1st and 30th ranked teams. I would like to see them use the $ to develop their farm system and/or get some international free agents. I'd be very cool with that. I want to clarify my positions...here's where I'm coming from: IMO, the "window" on the Sox contending is rapidly closing. The Tigers will be better, as will the Royals. Meanwhile, the tenures of Konerko and Dunn are coming towards their ends, Floyd will be a FA after 2013, and the minor league "cupboard" is bare. If the Sox are going into 2013 with thoughts of being SERIOUS contenders, moves have to be made, not necessarily today, but, prior to the season. I want to see the Sox win. I want another 2005. I'm sure Hahn/KW want this as well. Where I differ in opinion with them is that I don't think that you can "rebuild" and contend at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 I'd be willing to bet you a 6 pack of your favorite beer that Flowers out-produces AJ next year. I'd bet on AJ, but, I'm a bourbon guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 10:02 AM) I would like to see them use the $ to develop their farm system and/or get some international free agents. I'd be very cool with that. I want to clarify my positions...here's where I'm coming from: IMO, the "window" on the Sox contending is rapidly closing. The Tigers will be better, as will the Royals. Meanwhile, the tenures of Konerko and Dunn are coming towards their ends, Floyd will be a FA after 2013, and the minor league "cupboard" is bare. If the Sox are going into 2013 with thoughts of being SERIOUS contenders, moves have to be made, not necessarily today, but, prior to the season. I want to see the Sox win. I want another 2005. I'm sure Hahn/KW want this as well. Where I differ in opinion with them is that I don't think that you can "rebuild" and contend at the same time. Is that not what happened in 2005? That was quite a different team from 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionrulZ Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) Is that not what happened in 2005? That was quite a different team from 2004 But who were the additions/acquisitions? Mostly veterans, correct? Here are the players that were on the 2005 Sox that were NOT there in 2004. Pitchers Hermanson El Duque Jenks Brandon McCarthy David Sanders? Luis Vizcaino Kevin Walker? Catchers Raul Casanova AJ PIERZYNSKI Chris WIdger Infielders Geoff Blum Jamie Burke Iguchi Pedro Lopez? Ozuna Outfielders Brian Anderson DYE Everett Podsednik Edited December 27, 2012 by Lamar Johnson 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lamar Johnson 23 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 10:21 AM) But who were the additions/acquisitions? Mostly veterans, correct? Rebuilding is not exclusive to rookies coming up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 05 was a retool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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