Rick Hahn

[southsider2k5]

Let's remember that Danks essentially provided you nothing in 2012, so his health concerns don't really subtract anything. His ERA was 5.70 in the 53.2 innings he did pitch.

 

Really he was a negative in 2012, even in the innings he did pitch. Even if he only gets back to his 2011 numbers, (which are significantly below his career #'s) the innings alone will stabilize a young rotation and a young bullpen. Even if there are injuries, or setbacks to Danks, the team also is pretty deep in SPs that now have a bunch of major league innings under their belts.

 

Peavy, Sale, Danks, Floyd, Quintana, Santiago would be in the rotation for almost all major league teams. A guy like Axelrod could pitch in the rotations of bad teams. That is without getting anything from guys like Molina, Castro, and the rest of the minors.

 

The pitching is pretty high when compared to the rest of major league baseball.

[Marty34]

For this team to struggle to score runs, you need more than a net drop, you need an implosion from one or more of those guys. You need 2011 Dunn and Rios. If that happens, this team will struggle to score runs.

 

Konerko and Dunn's 2nd half OPS's were .772 and .729 respectively. Huge red flag for the 2013 offense for me.

 

[elrockinMT]

Konerko and Dunn's 2nd half OPS's were .772 and .729 respectively. Huge red flag for the 2013 offense for me.

 

Konerko was hurt and shoud be healed for 2013 and Dunn needs to cut down on the K's and go to left somemore. Easier said than DUNN I know LOL

[witesoxfan]

True, but that's an .830-ish OPS (heavy on the slugging) that the Sox need to replace to have a similar production level. So if Flowers puts up an OPS around .700 and Keppinger is around .730, the Sox are at about the same starting point as last year, except with a more balanced lineup and an OBP upgrade. If Flowers comes in ~ .750 or better, which he's fully capable of doing, then the White Sox have upgraded those 2 positions compared to last year, on the whole.

 

I think he's going to do that with his eyes closed. This is a young player who put up a .708 OPS over 153 PAs while playing very, very sporadically in his true rookie season. Honestly, I'm going to be disappointed with anything less than a .750 OPS.

[Lillian]

It will be very surprising if Hahn does not acquire a left handed, middle of the order bat.

He is not going to let this team go into the season with Dunn as the only "impact" left handed bat, as previously discussed.

I don't know who that hitter will replace, but I suspect that it might be Viciedo.

If he acquires a decent LH hitter to bat 3RD, and moves Dunn down to 5TH or 6TH. the lineup could be pretty productive.

 

To me the biggest wild card is still Beckham. If he were to finally realize his potential and again show the promise that he

demonstrated his rookie year, the Sox could be among the top offenses in baseball. I know we've all been disappointed in Gordon for the last 3 years, but

I think this might finally be the point where he figures it out. Imagine our offense with him putting up a line something like .285 35 doubles, 20 HR and a .350 OBP.

If that were to happen, and the Sox found a good left handed hitter to bat 3RD, I don't think it would matter much how Flowers hits.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Lillian

[caulfield12]

It will be very surprising if Hahn does not acquire a left handed, middle of the order bat.

He is not going to let this team go into the season with Dunn as the only "impact" left handed bat, as previously discussed.

I don't know who that hitter will replace, but I suspect that it might be Viciedo.

If he acquires a decent LH hitter to bat 3RD, and moves Dunn down to 5TH or 6TH. the lineup could be pretty productive.

 

To me the biggest wild card is still Beckham. If he were to finally realize his potential and again show the promise that he

demonstrated his rookie year, the Sox could be among the top offenses in baseball. I know we've all been disappointed in Gordon for the last 3 years, but

I think this might finally be the point where he figures it out. Imagine our offense with him putting up a line something like .285 35 doubles, 20 HR and a .350 OBP.

If that were to happen, and the Sox found a good left handed hitter to bat 3RD, I don't think it would matter much how Flowers hits.

 

That's all fine and good, but trading Viciedo and Floyd isn't going be enough to get it done.

 

It probably has to be one of those Nick Swisher trades multi-player trades where you're including someone like Trayce Thompson and probably Jones or Reed as well.

 

Of course, it depends on which player we're targeting, but with the Viciedo example, it would be LF.

 

How many Top 3-5/true impact corner outfielders hit LH and are on the the market now?

 

And would any of them be close to affordable for the Sox? That had to be the prime consideration with passing on Josh Hamilton, the risk/price tag. But if this LH hitter is in years 1-3, no team will trade him for less than a king's ransom, years 4-6 he becomes a lot more expensive and you're taking a huge risk of losing him before you get a full return on investment.

 

For the White Sox, it has to be someone like a Cespedes, where they're not giving up talent or a draft pick, but rolling the dice with their international scouting.

[Chicago White Sox]

Konerko and Dunn's 2nd half OPS's were .772 and .729 respectively. Huge red flag for the 2013 offense for me.

Those numbers tell me Konerko & Dunn sucked in the 2nd half last year, but they don't tell me why, which is pretty important if you plan on using them to predict future performance.

 

As someone else mentioned, Konerko was injured last year and should be recovered from that injury by the start of next season. While I personally think he will regress some due to his age, I think he'll be way better than a .772 OPS player in 2013.

 

Not as sure about Dunn, but it seems like he just failed to make adjustments from June on. Considering how bad he was in 2011 and how good he was in April & May of 2012, I wouldn't be surprised if he was simply too stubborn to make changes after that hot start last year. Trust me, I don't have a ton of confidence we'll ever see the Dunn who used to put up .900 OPSs, but I seriously doubt he'll be worse than an .800 OPS in 2013 (which is what he did in 2012).

 

Overall, maybe they are a little worse in 2013, but I honestly don't expect much of a drop-off at all.

[knightni]

Maybe he can offer a 1 year deal to Michael Bourn.

 

Carlos Pena did that with the Cubs.

[southsider2k5]

Maybe he can offer a 1 year deal to Michael Bourn.

 

Carlos Pena did that with the Cubs.

 

Bourn means loss of a first round pick.

[striker]

I think everyone assumes you start the season with the players you plan to end the season with and that's not necessarily how it works. Sure we have question marks but we should let things play out and get some of those questions answered with the players we have before we start making huge moves. That being said, play this team as is and assess mid year as to what we need. Our starting pitching is good and should keep us in most ball games. If they can't, we are screwed anyhow. Mid year you'll have most of your questions answered, more players will be available then there are now and the asking price for some will come down.

[Lillian]

That's all fine and good, but trading Viciedo and Floyd isn't going be enough to get it done.

 

It probably has to be one of those Nick Swisher trades multi-player trades where you're including someone like Trayce Thompson and probably Jones or Reed as well.

 

Of course, it depends on which player we're targeting, but with the Viciedo example, it would be LF.

 

How many Top 3-5/true impact corner outfielders hit LH and are on the the market now?

 

And would any of them be close to affordable for the Sox? That had to be the prime consideration with passing on Josh Hamilton, the risk/price tag. But if this LH hitter is in years 1-3, no team will trade him for less than a king's ransom, years 4-6 he becomes a lot more expensive and you're taking a huge risk of losing him before you get a full return on investment.

 

For the White Sox, it has to be someone like a Cespedes, where they're not giving up talent or a draft pick, but rolling the dice with their international scouting.

 

Who knows who, and how this will be accomplished, but I just can't believe that Hahn is going to let this team take the field without fulfilling his stated objective of acquiring a left handed bat, for the middle of the order. My only point was that it's premature to compare the Sox and Tiger lineups, because it is highly unlikely that you are looking at the final roster.

 

If Hahn is unable to find that bat, I agree that the Sox have very little chance of competing with Detroit. I have said, all along, that Dunn cannot bat 3RD, and cannot be the only impact left handed bat on this team.

[ZionrulZ]

Who knows who, and how this will be accomplished, but I just can't believe that Hahn is going to let this team take the field without fulfilling his stated objective of acquiring a left handed bat, for the middle of the order. My only point was that it's premature to compare the Sox and Tiger lineups, because it is highly unlikely that you are looking at the final roster.

 

If Hahn is unable to find that bat, I agree that the Sox have very little chance of competing with Detroit. I have said, all along, that Dunn cannot bat 3RD, and cannot be the only impact left handed bat on this team.

I agree with you 100%! Since the Sox got Dunn, I've said that he should be batting 4th, 5th or 6th. Traditional baseball wisdom says that your best hitter bats 3rd. Period.

[witesoxfan]

I agree with you 100%! Since the Sox got Dunn, I've said that he should be batting 4th, 5th or 6th. Traditional baseball wisdom says that your best hitter bats 3rd. Period.

 

No, traditional baseball wisdom says your best hitter hits 4th. I've been over this before, Dunn is perfect for the 3 spot.

[Dick Allen]

No, traditional baseball wisdom says your best hitter hits 4th. I've been over this before, Dunn is perfect for the 3 spot.

Maybe in April 2012 and May 2012 during his White Sox career. Other than that, no way.

[ZionrulZ]

No, traditional baseball wisdom says your best hitter hits 4th. I've been over this before, Dunn is perfect for the 3 spot.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17...-your-lineup-by

 

I stand corrected.

 

I just can't stand when the Sox go 3-up, 3-down and the ultra-slow Paul Koneko has to lead off.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Lamar Johnson 23

[witesoxfan]

Maybe in April 2012 and May 2012 during his White Sox career. Other than that, no way.

 

Yes, those are ideal. Due to those numbers and his career numbers, he is the ideal #3 hitter for the White Sox. It's possible he may struggle again, while also being possible that he hits .220 or .230, in which case he's extremely valuable.

 

But you don't like Dunn so you won't see past that.

[ZionrulZ]

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17...-your-lineup-by

 

I stand corrected.

 

I just can't stand when the Sox go 3-up, 3-down and the ultra-slow Paul Koneko has to lead off.

Although...

 

Batting Order Construction

While there is no universal rule for deciding on a batting order, teams tend to cluster their best hitters at the beginning of the order and leave the worst ones at the end. There are also some rules of thumb about specific skills for different spots in the order:

 

1.The first or leadoff hitter should be a good baserunner and good at getting on base. He should be willing to watch many pitches so that his teammates get a better chance to see the opposing pitcher's stuff. It is a waste to put a power hitter in the leadoff spot.

2.In the traditional approach, the second hitter should be a good bat handler. He needs to be able to take pitches to give the leadoff man a chance to steal. He should also be able to make a sacrifice bunt or hit and run play. Another theory is that any player with a high on-base percentage should occupy the spot, no matter his other skills, in order to create RBI opportunities for the team's best sluggers who normally hit in the next two spots.

3.The third hitter is supposed to be the best all-around hitter on the team. He should be able to hit for average and power, and ideally should be able to run the bases well.

4.The fourth or cleanup hitter is supposed to be the best power hitter. His job is to drive in the top three hitters when they get on base.

5.The fifth place hitter is usually another power hitter, but one who isn't quite as good as the cleanup hitter.

6.The sixth place hitter is something like a second leadoff hitter. If the team has a second player with leadoff-type skills, he'll often bat 6th.

7.The seventh place batter is normally a spot for a batter who lacks the skills that would put him higher in the order.

8.The eighth place hitter's role depends on the league. In leagues that use the designated hitter, he is often viewed similarly to the seventh place hitter. In leagues in which the pitcher is required to bat, teams will often pitch around the eighth place hitter, so it's desirable to have a patient hitter there. It used to be traditional to bat the catcher eighth because the catcher was often changed along with the pitcher.

9.The ninth spot is reserved for the pitcher in non-DH leagues. In DH leagues, it is often seen as a second leadoff spot, so teams will pick a batter with leadoff-type skills.

 

[Dick Allen]

Yes, those are ideal. Due to those numbers and his career numbers, he is the ideal #3 hitter for the White Sox. It's possible he may struggle again, while also being possible that he hits .220 or .230, in which case he's extremely valuable.

 

But you don't like Dunn so you won't see past that.

I can see past it, but 2011 was brutal and his OBP was .305 the last 4 months of 2012 with an OPS below .750 despite leading the league in walks. Seems the one looking past something is you.

[ZionrulZ]

To change the subject a bit, wouldn't Jon Rauch and/or Matt Capps be good, affordable "gets" for the Sox' bullpen?

[Dick Allen]

Yes, those are ideal. Due to those numbers and his career numbers, he is the ideal #3 hitter for the White Sox. It's possible he may struggle again, while also being possible that he hits .220 or .230, in which case he's extremely valuable.

 

But you don't like Dunn so you won't see past that.

I can see past it, but 2011 was brutal and his OBP was .305 the last 4 months of 2012 with an OPS below .750 despite leading the league in walks. Seems the one looking past something is you. That's not even counting Dunn being a base clogger and if he's not homering, chances are if he reaches, he's on first base.

 

Adam Dunn is a .184/.315/.385/.700 hitter in his White Sox career. That is not an ideal #3 hitter.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

To change the subject a bit, wouldn't Jon Rauch and/or Matt Capps be good, affordable "gets" for the Sox' bullpen?

 

Neither are very good. Unless it were on a minor league deal, it wouldn't be worth it.

 

I can see past it, but 2011 was brutal and his OBP was .305 the last 4 months of 2012 with an OPS below .750 despite leading the league in walks. Seems the one looking past something is you. That's not even counting Dunn being a base clogger and if he's not homering, chances are if he reaches, he's on first base.

 

And getting on base is still extending the inning, even if he is "clogging" the bases. I'd rather have that than Mark Kotsay.

 

Beyond that, his OBP was .351 and his OPS .856 through July 31st. He really only struggled in August and September. I can cherry pick statistics too.

[witesoxfan]

And in his White Sox career, he had the worst season of all time with one of the worst managers in White Sox history (noting that 2009-10 Ozzie was horrendous). You are including an anamoly in those numbers.

 

I'm walking away from this. I know how you feel about Dunn. I think it's very wrong.

[Dick Allen]

And in his White Sox career, he had the worst season of all time with one of the worst managers in White Sox history (noting that 2009-10 Ozzie was horrendous). You are including an anamoly in those numbers.

 

I'm walking away from this. I know how you feel about Dunn. I think it's very wrong.

June he hit .181 with a .333 OBP

July he hit .211 with a .311 OBP

 

That's pretty brutal out of the 3 hole. Walk away because you are wrong. 4 out of 6 months in 2012, Adam Dunn was a little better than he was when he had to be held out at the end of the year to keep from having officially the worst season of all time. I hope if he's batting 3rd in 2012, he's not the hitter he has been 10 of the 12 months he's played baseball in a White Sox uniform.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

I can see past it, but 2011 was brutal and his OBP was .305 the last 4 months of 2012 with an OPS below .750 despite leading the league in walks. Seems the one looking past something is you. That's not even counting Dunn being a base clogger and if he's not homering, chances are if he reaches, he's on first base.

 

Adam Dunn is a .184/.315/.385/.700 hitter in his White Sox career. That is not an ideal #3 hitter.

 

Dunn went south after his oblique injury. That is a pretty game changing injury for a pure power hitter.

[Dick Allen]

Dunn went south after his oblique injury. That is a pretty game changing injury for a pure power hitter.

He actually started heading south around Memorial Day. Whatever witesox said, I'm not necessarily an Adam Dunn hater. The Sox are stuck with him and his homers do provide value. He just needs to be moved down in the line up.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Dick Allen