Rick Hahn

[southsider2k5]

He actually started heading south around Memorial Day.

 

Or right about the time that he sprained his ankle in June?

[cabiness42]

He actually started heading south around Memorial Day. Whatever witesox said, I'm not necessarily an Adam Dunn hater. The Sox are stuck with him and his homers do provide value. He just needs to be moved down in the line up.

 

In a good lineup, you might be able to argue moving him down, but his .333 OBP in 2012, which is awful by Dunn's standards, makes him a guy you have to have batting in front of Konerko and Rios in this particular Sox lineup. His 100+ walks are wasted if you have Ramirez and Beckham batting behind him.

 

[Dick Allen]

Or right about the time that he sprained his ankle in June?

It actually started at the end of May, are you saying Adam was injured the last 4 months and that is the reason for his tail off?

 

Irregardless, if he isn't getting the job done in the 3 hole, he shouldn't be hitting in the 3 hole, and he wasn't the last 4 months of the season.

[southsider2k5]

It actually started at the end of May, are you saying Adam was injured the last 4 months and that is the reason for his tail off?

 

Irregardless, if he isn't getting the job done in the 3 hole, he shouldn't be hitting in the 3 hole, and he wasn't the last 4 months of the season.

 

Are you saying that injuries that correspond to when Dunn had his big drop offs mean nothing?

[Dick Allen]

Are you saying that injuries that correspond to when Dunn had his big drop offs mean nothing?

What I am saying is he didn't get the job done for 4 months. Are you saying if a guy isn't getting the job done because he's just bad is a reason to move him in the line up, but if he's hurt you just continue to watch him fail? I also highly doubt is ankle injury was a 2 or 3 month thing.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

I honestly don't understand the idea that Dunn struggled in June and July. He wasn't his typical .850 OPS self, but he put up OPS's of .770 and .788. Compared to the league average 3 hitter (.800 OPS, ironically enough), they really aren't that bad. His job is to hit home runs and get on base, and he did part of that job really well with 15 home runs in those two months.

 

The sub-.700 OPS, regardless of injury, I will agree is completely unacceptable. If he is hurt to the point where it is affecting his play on the field that much, then he needs to sit out to let the injury heal.

[southsider2k5]

What I am saying is he didn't get the job done for 4 months. Are you saying if a guy isn't getting the job done because he's just bad is a reason to move him in the line up, but if he's hurt you just continue to watch him fail? I also highly doubt is ankle injury was a 2 or 3 month thing.

 

And interesting thing I found about his injury. Don't know what kind of faith to put into it, but it was more interesting than the whole "he just sucks" theory, with no consideration to anything but statistics and hate.

 

http://blog.anklefootmd.com/2012/06/15/whi...le-instability/

 

On Tuesday night, White Sox heavy hitter Adam Dunn twisted his ankle as he cranked a 436 feet home run.

 

The injury occurred in the 8th inning, and resulted in Dunn being benched for the rest of the game. He was also taken out of the starting lineup for Wednesday’s game, but convinced the manager to let him play on Thursday.

 

While the sprain seems to be minor, it is likely a warning sign of a much more serious and long term problem.

 

Dr. Silverman Comments

 

Dunn has ankle instability!

 

He rolled the right foot as he was going through his swing rotation. Normally, he would use his front foot to generate greater rotational forces in his upper body and swing the bat even harder. Here however, his foot was not planted and the rotation occurred around the ankle. Only with ankle instability will someone roll the foot like that.

 

The pain he feels now is due to the ankle capsule or the peroneal tendons being stretched. He will resolve this acute exacerbation quickly, but it will almost certainly happen again. The ankle could easily roll while he runs around 2nd or 3rd base.

 

If I was his orthopedic surgeon, I would tell him he needs ankle bracing at all times while playing or practicing and I would recommend reconstruction in the off season. He will be even more powerful with a stable ankle.

[witesoxfan]

To play Devil's Advocate here, if Paul Konerko hits like the did the last 4 months of last year, then he needs to be moved out of the cleanup spot. .258/.329/.409/.738 over the last 4 months

 

That argument, FWIW, is as logical and reasonable as moving Dunn out of the 3 spot is.

[chw42]

CF A. Jackson 7 vs DeAza 6 slight advantage Jackson

LF T. Hunter 6 vs Tank 7 almost a wash but I'll say slight advantage Tank

RF Q. Berry/ A. Garcia 6 vs Rios 8 advantage Rios

1B Prince 9 vs Paulie 8 sorry to say but I have to give advantage to Prince

2B R. Santiago 4 vs Beckham 5 both suck but because of D slight advantage Beckham

SS J. Peralta 5 vs Alexi 7 advantage Alexi

3B KM. Cabrerra 10 vs Keppinger 7 blowout advantage Cabrerra

C A. Avila 5 vs Flowers 4 Flowers is unproven advantage Avila

DH V. Martinez 8 vs Dunn 8 push

Ace Verlander 10 vs Sale 9 Sale is very good but Verlander gets the advantage

Rest of Starters Det 6 Sox 7 slight advantage Sox

Bullpens Det 5 Sox 5 push

Bench Det 5 Sox 3 Sox have no bench

Manager Det 6 Sox 4 Robin still learning

 

In my opinion and home made formula Detroit wins 92 games and the Sox win 88 [maybe enough for wildcard but doubtful]

 

4 games Detroit advantage is catchable if Rick Hahn makes the right moves. Come on Rick we are counting on you.

 

Torii Hunter's better than Tank and Omar Infante plays 2B for the Tigers now.

 

[Eminor3rd]

It actually started at the end of May, are you saying Adam was injured the last 4 months and that is the reason for his tail off?

 

Irregardless, if he isn't getting the job done in the 3 hole, he shouldn't be hitting in the 3 hole, and he wasn't the last 4 months of the season.

 

The fact that you just typed "irregardless" invalidated your whole argument.

[ZionrulZ]

The fact that you just typed "irregardless" invalidated your whole argument.

[Dick Allen]

And interesting thing I found about his injury. Don't know what kind of faith to put into it, but it was more interesting than the whole "he just sucks" theory, with no consideration to anything but statistics and hate.

 

http://blog.anklefootmd.com/2012/06/15/whi...le-instability/

First off I don't hate Dunn. I don't think he's worth what the Sox are paying him and don't think he should bat 3rd, but I don't know why you would have a problem with someone using statistics and hate to rate a player. Its exactly what you use when discussing AJ.

[southsider2k5]

First off I don't hate Dunn. I don't think he's worth what the Sox are paying him and don't think he should bat 3rd, but I don't know why you would have a problem with someone using statistics and hate to rate a player. Its exactly what you use when discussing AJ.

 

Not at the expense of everything else (history, age, injury etc) that's the difference. I'm not willing to blindly write him off when there are plausible explanations for performance.

[Dick Allen]

Not at the expense of everything else (history, age, injury etc) that's the difference. I'm not willing to blindly write him off when there are plausible explanations for performance.

Now you are defending Dunn, and you are the same guy who was getting slammed for his low first half grade for him last year. All I have been saying is he is no 3 hole hitter, but you want to argue for no apparent reason other than to argue. I won't take the bait. Why don't you just show me statistically or otherwise why Adam Dunn's performance makes him the best candidate to bat third?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Dick Allen

[cabiness42]

Now you are defending Dunn, and you are the same guy who was getting slammed for his low first half grade for him last year. All I have been saying is he is no 3 hole hitter, but you want to argue for no apparent reason other than to argue. I won't take the bait. Why don't you just show me statistically or otherwise why Adam Dunn's performance makes him the best candidate to bat third?

 

In every thread where you've gone off about Dunn, myself and/or others have pointed out that while Dunn isn't anywhere near the player the Sox expected him to be, he still put up a .333 OBP and drew 100+ walks on a team that is sorely lacking in OBP and moving him down to where he has Ramirez and Beckham hitting behind him would make the lineup even worse than it already is.

 

If you disagree with that assessment, then fine, but STFU about people not showing statistically why Dunn should be batting 3rd.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

Torii Hunter's better than Tank and Omar Infante plays 2B for the Tigers now.

 

 

Would you rather have Torii Hunter on the White Sox at this stage than Viciedo though? I think Viciedo's numbers at the end of the year will be better than Hunter's numbers. Tank should hit close to 30 HR's this year.

[Dick Allen]

In every thread where you've gone off about Dunn, myself and/or others have pointed out that while Dunn isn't anywhere near the player the Sox expected him to be, he still put up a .333 OBP and drew 100+ walks on a team that is sorely lacking in OBP and moving him down to where he has Ramirez and Beckham hitting behind him would make the lineup even worse than it already is.

 

If you disagree with that assessment, then fine, but STFU about people not showing statistically why Dunn should be batting 3rd.

A .333 OBP was 5th among White Sox regulars. Considering he isn't much of a baserunner and most of that OBP is a walk, it's a pretty weak argument.

[cabiness42]

A .333 OBP was 5th among White Sox regulars. Considering he isn't much of a baserunner and most of that OBP is a walk, it's a pretty weak argument.

 

His OBP coming from walks is exactly why he needs to be hitting in front of Konerko/Rios and not behind them. He's not going to hit for enough average to drive in Konerko/Rios, but he will get on base enough for them to drive him in. How hard is that to understand? You want a low average/high walk guy before your best hitters, not after them.

 

[chetkincaid]

Now the Tigers are going after JJ Hardy.

 

All of the White Sox's division rivals are making moves to improve. Hell, the crosstown rival is even improving.

 

And all hear out of the new GMs office is *crickets*

[Dick Allen]

His OBP coming from walks is exactly why he needs to be hitting in front of Konerko/Rios and not behind them. He's not going to hit for enough average to drive in Konerko/Rios, but he will get on base enough for them to drive him in. How hard is that to understand? You want a low average/high walk guy before your best hitters, not after them.

No

The argument is that the 3 hole hitter bats a lot with 2 out and nobody on base. Dunn was a significantly better hitter both slugging and getting on base with runners on. He only got on base at a .314 clip with the bases empty and had an OPS near .900 with runners on. And he didn't score very many runs last year when he didn't drive himself in. You will argue that is not his fault, and it probably isn't, but it does point to a flaw in your logic.That is why it is hard to understand. What you are saying didn't occur.

 

Maybe your theory would be correct with a guy who runs better , and can get himself into scoring position with doubles or stolen bases, but Adam doesn't do that much anymore.

[hogan873]

Now the Tigers are going after JJ Hardy.

 

All of the White Sox's division rivals are making moves to improve. Hell, the crosstown rival is even improving.

 

And all hear out of the new GMs office is *crickets*

I'm waiting for Hahn to come busting through the wall Kool-Aid guy-style, ripping off like three trades in 24 hours.

[Balta1701]

Would you rather have Torii Hunter on the White Sox at this stage than Viciedo though?

When the White Sox have a 1st baseman in his late 30's, any time he struggles, it's a sign he's getting old and doesn't even belong in the upper half of the order.

 

When the Tigers sign an OF in his late 30's, he's going to dominate.

[southsider2k5]

Now you are defending Dunn, and you are the same guy who was getting slammed for his low first half grade for him last year. All I have been saying is he is no 3 hole hitter, but you want to argue for no apparent reason other than to argue. I won't take the bait. Why don't you just show me statistically or otherwise why Adam Dunn's performance makes him the best candidate to bat third?

 

Are you telling me that you can't equate a difference between a grade for a players performance and an explanation for his performance? Now you are just looking to be argumentative to deflect back.

[cabiness42]

No

The argument is that the 3 hole hitter bats a lot with 2 out and nobody on base. Dunn was a significantly better hitter both slugging and getting on base with runners on. He only got on base at a .314 clip with the bases empty and had an OPS near .900 with runners on. And he didn't score very many runs last year when he didn't drive himself in. You will argue that is not his fault, and it probably isn't, but it does point to a flaw in your logic.That is why it is hard to understand. What you are saying didn't occur.

 

Maybe your theory would be correct with a guy who runs better , and can get himself into scoring position with doubles or stolen bases, but Adam doesn't do that much anymore.

 

Considering the number of homers Konerko and Rios hit, Dunn will bat with guys on base hitting behind deAza and Keppinger just as much if not more than if he hits behind Konerko and Rios. So by batting him 3rd you maximize the amount he hits with runners on plus you have guys behind him that can drive him in when he walks.

 

If Viciedo and/or Flowers have breakout years then you might be able to make a case for sliding Dunn down to 5th behind Konerko/Rios and in front of Viciedo/Flowers, but as it stands now Dunn's walks will get wasted if he doesn't bat before Konerko/Rios.

[southsider2k5]

Would you rather have Torii Hunter on the White Sox at this stage than Viciedo though? I think Viciedo's numbers at the end of the year will be better than Hunter's numbers. Tank should hit close to 30 HR's this year.

 

For this year it is a toss up. I think Viciedo will outhit Hunter, but Torii will hold a large advantage on D. Past this year, it isn't even close.