NorthSideSox72 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 What I think is funny about these arguments that the Sox are somehow nickel and diming (despite having a relatively high payroll and relatively low attendance, thus rendering such an argument bulls***), is this screaming and yelling about how the team isn't good enough... and yet, no one is able to point out any possible path to get better. What trades or signings could the Sox even make at this point that make sense? A HUGE part of the equation here is what is even AVAILABLE at any given time in the market. There are only so many players, and only a small % are available, and you have to me up with some sort of plausible scenario for those. So let's hear it. Otherwise, the b****ing is just beating your head against a brick wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 04:33 PM) I don't WANT to be .500. I WANT everyone to hit up to their full potential and win the division. So I can't wish for the potential of a rebuild, but you can for the average team they have now? haha Can't we all be dreamers? Haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 06:35 PM) What I think is funny about these arguments that the Sox are somehow nickel and diming (despite having a relatively high payroll and relatively low attendance, thus rendering such an argument bulls***), is this screaming and yelling about how the team isn't good enough... and yet, no one is able to point out any possible path to get better. What trades or signings could the Sox even make at this point that make sense? A HUGE part of the equation here is what is even AVAILABLE at any given time in the market. There are only so many players, and only a small % are available, and you have to me up with some sort of plausible scenario for those. So let's hear it. Otherwise, the b****ing is just beating your head against a brick wall. The Sox had the 7th best record in the league and were 9th in attendance. Sox attendance isn't driven by payroll. The reason why the Sox are in a position where there are no easy answers to get better goes back to decisions that were made 5-6 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 We cannot rebuild even if we wanted to. Nobody is going to give us an impact player like Wil Myers, Travis D'Arnaud, Jarrod Parker for anybody except Chris Sale. Which obviously would make no sense for us to do. We could acquire young players who aren't really top prospects, but to punt the season for that is simply a salary dump and risky in more ways than one. We also cannot buy our way into competition as some wish. By most indications we're already near the payroll limit. To catch the current Tigers roster "on paper", we need to add around 10 wins. That costs about fifty-million dollars which is not feasible. So we're stuck in the middle and I agree with wite that we're a slightly better than .500 team. With luck, this team can compete for a playoff spot, and possibly add at the deadline if it makes sense. If after the All-Star break it looks like it won't be in the chase, we can try to move some of our guys who would be more attractive to certain teams than they are right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 06:48 PM) The Sox had the 7th best record in the league and were 9th in attendance. Sox attendance isn't driven by payroll. The reason why the Sox are in a position where there are no easy answers to get better goes back to decisions that were made 5-6 years ago. Sox fans didn't even show up after being in first place for pretty much the entire season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Cali @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 06:44 PM) So I can't wish for the potential of a rebuild, but you can for the average team they have now? haha Can't we all be dreamers? Haha You can wish for it all you want. It doesn't mean it is realistic or the smartest move. Again, I am still waiting for some proof that the rebuild theory actually works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 05:21 PM) You can wish for it all you want. It doesn't mean it is realistic or the smartest move. Again, I am still waiting for some proof that the rebuild theory actually works. Well I don't think hoping everyone hits to their potential is very realistic either. Neither option is preferable really haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 07:20 PM) Sox fans didn't even show up after being in first place for pretty much the entire season. The organization needs to put out a better product if it wants more people in the seats. It's not the fans fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 08:21 PM) You can wish for it all you want. It doesn't mean it is realistic or the smartest move. Again, I am still waiting for some proof that the rebuild theory actually works. The Rangers sorta made it work. The Giants got a couple high picks after tetrahydrogestrinone retires that became Cain and Lincecum. The Marlins made it work well in 97 and got back over .500 with their 2003 rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 05:39 PM) The Rangers sorta made it work. The Giants got a couple high picks after tetrahydrogestrinone retires that became Cain and Lincecum. The Marlins made it work well in 97 and got back over .500 with their 2003 rebuild. And not that these teams went into rebuild mode, but a few teams that were a non-factor-to-terrible for years in the Rangers, Rays, Reds, and Nationals, now are perennial contenders.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 This website is so comical. Almost everyone here wrote off 2012 before the season even started, then the team went out and was in 1st place for most of the season. Yes, they fell short in the end, finishing 3 games behind the Tigers despite a higher run differential (5th in AL). The primary reasons for the collapse IMO was a tired rotation, a lack of clutch hitting down the stretch, and some rookie mistakes by Robin, three areas we can possibly improve in 2013. Obviously the Tigers have improved and should be the favorites. We probably need some things to go right for us or some things to go wrong for them to win the division. Considering the age of two of their big additions (Hunter & Martinez) and the innings their pitching staff logged last year, I think there is some reason for optimism of that front. Also, we can always win one of the wild-card spots. Baltimore did last year with a +5 run differential. To write off the 2013 White Sox at this point just seems so damn foolish to me. We all wish Hahn would go out and make an impact move, but we have more than enough talent to win the division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Cali @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 07:44 PM) And not that these teams went into rebuild mode, but a few teams that were a non-factor-to-terrible for years in the Rangers, Rays, Reds, and Nationals, now are perennial contenders.... For every team that took years to rebuild and now is enjoying a level of success, there are the teams still stuck in last place. It's all about execution, and the environment the team finds itself in. Flat out, the Sox are not the right team to rebuild and don't have the fanbase to support it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickofypres Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I don't think Detroit is really all that much better than us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 05:55 PM) For every team that took years to rebuild and now is enjoying a level of success, there are the teams still stuck in last place. It's all about execution, and the environment the team finds itself in. Flat out, the Sox are not the right team to rebuild and don't have the fanbase to support it. Well honesty that's their f***ing fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 07:39 PM) The organization needs to put out a better product if it wants more people in the seats. It's not the fans fault. Yeah, first place for 117 days isn't a good enough product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Cali @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 07:44 PM) And not that these teams went into rebuild mode, but a few teams that were a non-factor-to-terrible for years in the Rangers, Rays, Reds, and Nationals, now are perennial contenders.... None have won a world series title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 07:55 PM) For every team that took years to rebuild and now is enjoying a level of success, there are the teams still stuck in last place. It's all about execution, and the environment the team finds itself in. Flat out, the Sox are not the right team to rebuild and don't have the fanbase to support it. And the Sox history proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 04:28 PM) They shouldn't be in the middle. They should have either added $25-$30M to the 2013 payroll or cut payroll setting up for 2014 and beyond. Which guarantees what, exactly? Didn't they try this exact same approach heading into 2011, and how well did that turn out? They ARE setting up for 2014 and beyond by not trading away their entire league system for another hitter or signing Josh Hamilton, etc. They haven't traded away any of their young core players to this point, not even Beckham. (Yes, Alexei is another issue as Sanchez's progression could push him out in 2013 or in the following offseason). It's not simply a matter of adding money or having a magical threshold number, although the odds of being competitive are much higher at $100+ million plus, the A's disproved that by knocking off the Angels and there are numerous other examples (Rays, Twins) or counter-examples of wasted spending by teams like the Mets, Red Sox or Dodgers. The 2005 team had only a $65 million pricetag attached. It wasn't until our payroll began to bloat the subsequent year that the team lost its edge, largely due to chemistry issues (incorporating too many new players) and wear and tear on the pitching staff from being extended...and simply the Twins and Tigers being better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 09:32 PM) And the Sox history proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt. They did survive the strike and the White Flag, but barely. There were those late 80's and late 90's rebuilding movements. The legacy of those two events still hover over the franchise, though and are nevertheless an important part of the decision-making process, trying to avoid another White Flag II (see 2010 when they sputtered out of the gate, or 2007 when they could have ditched Buehrle, Konerko, Dye, etc.). Edited January 10, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 06:48 PM) The Sox had the 7th best record in the league and were 9th in attendance. Sox attendance isn't driven by payroll. The reason why the Sox are in a position where there are no easy answers to get better goes back to decisions that were made 5-6 years ago. Bolded is true - but the other way around is somewhat true. And yet, despite being 9th in attendence in the AL, they had the 5th highest team salary, and that was after actually SHEDDING some from 2011. The argument that this White Sox regime, under KW/Hahn and JerryCo (since, say, 2000-ish), is cheap or unwilling to invest in the team, is 100% complete nonsense. This organization puts more into player payroll with less revenue than most teams in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 06:34 AM) Bolded is true - but the other way around is somewhat true. And yet, despite being 9th in attendence in the AL, they had the 5th highest team salary, and that was after actually SHEDDING some from 2011. The argument that this White Sox regime, under KW/Hahn and JerryCo (since, say, 2000-ish), is cheap or unwilling to invest in the team, is 100% complete nonsense. This organization puts more into player payroll with less revenue than most teams in baseball. The attendance isn't stellar, but if you ranked the teams by total revenue, they would rank higher than 9th, but I do agree, the amount spent isn't the problem. You can argue how it has been spent has been a problem. Facts are, while people are moaning Hahn hasn't made 45 moves yet, had they had shown up at the games when the Sox were in first place last summer, perhaps some other moves would have been made. I don't think refusing to pay what the White Sox wanted you to pay to attend a game, and sit in a seat you can actually see what is going on in the game (although if you ever sit in the real cheap seats, you would think its a far better place to call balls and strikes than where the umpire sets up if you go by fan comments) makes you a bad fan, but when enough people stay away, it will eventually effect the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 It's really at a stalemate. Fans says put a good team on the field and we'll come, ownership says come and we can afford to put a competitive team on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 At least now the team is acknowledging their ticket costs have been too high and are lowering prices across the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 04:22 PM) Sure it is. The Sox problem is a fickel fan base, not talent evaluation. https://www.google.com/search?q=fickle&...lient=firefox-a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 QUOTE (3E8 @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 11:37 AM) At least now the team is acknowledging their ticket costs have been too high and are lowering prices across the board. Let's see if it changes attendance. The high cost is one excuse fans have for not coming to games. There is now one less excuse. My bet is that attendance doesn't much and fans find other excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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