Rick Hahn

[chetkincaid]

Hahn's offseason has been garbage. There was a fork in the road and instead of picking a direction he pulled off the road and took a nap...

 

Sig worthy.

[bigruss]

Another "should have traded everyone post." Awesome. Those have gotten to the point where they've joined any number of other pipedream scenarios on this board, except that I don't know why it should be a pipedream considering the track record of blowing teams up.

Because becoming worse is somehow getting better.

 

Nevermind attendance, nevermind the fact that we are constantly fighting for fans from another in-city team. Reason be gone, finances be damned, we want change! We don't care that the Sox are trying to get good deals, we wanted them to make every move rashly!!

 

Bring back Kenny! You know, that same guy we just bashed for the last 5 years for making rash moves!!

[southsider2k5]

Because becoming worse is somehow getting better.

 

Nevermind attendance, nevermind the fact that we are constantly fighting for fans from another in-city team. Reason be gone, finances be damned, we want change! We don't care that the Sox are trying to get good deals, we wanted them to make every move rashly!!

 

Bring back Kenny! You know, that same guy we just bashed for the last 5 years for making rash moves!!

 

This is the fanbase that used to make fun of Cubs fans for accepting losing, right? Now we have people who actually want to be losers on purpose? Yeesh.

[bigruss]

This is the fanbase that used to make fun of Cubs fans for accepting losing, right? Now we have people who actually want to be losers on purpose? Yeesh.

The same fan base that complains about spending money at the park, but still demanding top FAs.

[hogan873]

*looks at calendar, confirms it's still January*

[Kyyle23]

Brick killed a guy. Did you throw a trident?

[southsider2k5]

The same fan base that complains about spending money at the park, but still demanding top FAs.

 

The same fan base that demands a winning team, but stays home when they win.

[witesoxfan]

I get more frustrated with people who expected Rick Hahn to be ultra aggressive and completely transform this team overnight while only adding, at the most, $25 million in payroll. The fact of the matter is Rick Hahn is doing exactly what people have wanted Ken Williams to do for years - slow down, hang on to prospects, build from within, and trade when you are at the point of going over the top. There is no one single move that pushes the White Sox "past" the Tigers at this point in time - no matter what, they're going to have a better team, on paper, going into the year than the White Sox, and that's the simple truth to it. If he brings in Hamilton, it's essentially at +6 WAR at the very best (because I figure he's a 6 WAR player in LF, though he could certainly be better, and moving De Aza from CF to LF kills his value), so even that wouldn't have pushed the Sox over the top. And rather than forcing a trade of Gavin Floyd for what essentially amounts to pennies on the dollar, he can hang on to him and either keep him to add depth and durability to the rotation, or he can deal him midseason (especially if the team struggles like so, so many of you believe it will).

 

For the first time that I can remember, the White Sox have enough talent in the minor leagues that I can look at it and safely believe that they will have atleast 5 steady contributors from that system at the MLB level at some point in time within the next 3-4 years. I look at it and see a guy who has superstar potential in Courtney Hawkins and a couple of different pitchers who have top of the rotation talent. I'm not sure if people wanted Hahn to deal from that and get marginal upgrades at best or shred it Veeck style to sell off for maybe one or two playoff runs, or to sign free agents which cripple the team's long-term financial goals, or to blow up and absolutely forego any sort of chance at competition in the next 3-5 years while cutting attendance by about 20% starting next year. Do any of those make sense?

 

Think from a rational point of view as to what you would have done differently if you were Rick Hahn, and then think about it again and see if it actually would have been the viable and most effecient move both short and long term.

 

This team won 85 games last year. They're adding a guy who has been a 3-4 WAR starting pitcher, adding a full-time 3Bman who should get on base and will put the ball in play, and they brought back their most important free agent (there is no argument here). If everything falls apart, this could certainly be a 72-75 win team. If everything comes together, it could be a 92-95 win team. More than likely, it's in between there at around 82-85 wins again, which probably won't be good enough for the playoffs. Konerko and Floyd are free agents at that point, Dunn will only have 1 year left on his deal (making him move movable), and, unless someone has stepped up elsewhere, the Sox probably will sell quite a few more pieces off.

 

They are in "purgatory" right now, but unlike the NFL and NBA, variance and randomness play a much larger role in the MLB. If they get hot and Detroit suffers an injury, they could very well be penciling themselves into a playoff spot. Baseball is weird like that sometimes. Teams like the 2012 Orioles and the 2005 White Sox happen. This team isn't so far upcreek right now that they have no chance going into the season, unlike the Houston Astros or the Miami Marlins, and in fact, this team has a better chance at reaching the postseason than most. With the way this coaching staff has prepared these players last season, I'm willing to take that chance.

 

 

[iamshack]

I'm willing to give the guy more time and not make any judgments based on what has occurred thus far.

 

I agree that the price we will pay now and a few years into the future is the result of Kenny being ultra aggressive.

 

However, I knew I would miss the gambler when he was gone...

[harfman77]

When is the Sox deal with Comcast up? Many teams have been able to spend more money due to new TV deals. Live sports is at a premium right now and sports networks are paying through the nose for the right to broadcast (thanks to DVR's).

 

This team is going to go through a transition the next few seasons as contracts expire and the organization attempts to build through the draft. Three of the top ten prospects came from last years draft, and I think you will see another strong draft year now that MLB has standardized the draft rules.

[southsider2k5]

When is the Sox deal with Comcast up? Many teams have been able to spend more money due to new TV deals. Live sports is at a premium right now and sports networks are paying through the nose for the right to broadcast (thanks to DVR's).

 

This team is going to go through a transition the next few seasons as contracts expire and the organization attempts to build through the draft. Three of the top ten prospects came from last years draft, and I think you will see another strong draft year now that MLB has standardized the draft rules.

 

I believe it is 2019.

[Balta1701]

I believe it is 2019.

Correct.

 

However, both the Cubs and White Sox ownership groups have stakes in Comcast, so additional ad revenues tied to the team also improve the financial situations of the ownership groups.

[ScottyDo]

I get more frustrated with people who expected Rick Hahn to be ultra aggressive and completely transform this team overnight while only adding, at the most, $25 million in payroll. The fact of the matter is Rick Hahn is doing exactly what people have wanted Ken Williams to do for years - slow down, hang on to prospects, build from within, and trade when you are at the point of going over the top. There is no one single move that pushes the White Sox "past" the Tigers at this point in time - no matter what, they're going to have a better team, on paper, going into the year than the White Sox, and that's the simple truth to it. If he brings in Hamilton, it's essentially at +6 WAR at the very best (because I figure he's a 6 WAR player in LF, though he could certainly be better, and moving De Aza from CF to LF kills his value), so even that wouldn't have pushed the Sox over the top. And rather than forcing a trade of Gavin Floyd for what essentially amounts to pennies on the dollar, he can hang on to him and either keep him to add depth and durability to the rotation, or he can deal him midseason (especially if the team struggles like so, so many of you believe it will).

 

For the first time that I can remember, the White Sox have enough talent in the minor leagues that I can look at it and safely believe that they will have atleast 5 steady contributors from that system at the MLB level at some point in time within the next 3-4 years. I look at it and see a guy who has superstar potential in Courtney Hawkins and a couple of different pitchers who have top of the rotation talent. I'm not sure if people wanted Hahn to deal from that and get marginal upgrades at best or shred it Veeck style to sell off for maybe one or two playoff runs, or to sign free agents which cripple the team's long-term financial goals, or to blow up and absolutely forego any sort of chance at competition in the next 3-5 years while cutting attendance by about 20% starting next year. Do any of those make sense?

 

Think from a rational point of view as to what you would have done differently if you were Rick Hahn, and then think about it again and see if it actually would have been the viable and most effecient move both short and long term.

 

This team won 85 games last year. They're adding a guy who has been a 3-4 WAR starting pitcher, adding a full-time 3Bman who should get on base and will put the ball in play, and they brought back their most important free agent (there is no argument here). If everything falls apart, this could certainly be a 72-75 win team. If everything comes together, it could be a 92-95 win team. More than likely, it's in between there at around 82-85 wins again, which probably won't be good enough for the playoffs. Konerko and Floyd are free agents at that point, Dunn will only have 1 year left on his deal (making him move movable), and, unless someone has stepped up elsewhere, the Sox probably will sell quite a few more pieces off.

 

They are in "purgatory" right now, but unlike the NFL and NBA, variance and randomness play a much larger role in the MLB. If they get hot and Detroit suffers an injury, they could very well be penciling themselves into a playoff spot. Baseball is weird like that sometimes. Teams like the 2012 Orioles and the 2005 White Sox happen. This team isn't so far upcreek right now that they have no chance going into the season, unlike the Houston Astros or the Miami Marlins, and in fact, this team has a better chance at reaching the postseason than most. With the way this coaching staff has prepared these players last season, I'm willing to take that chance.

[southsider2k5]

Borass rebuffed in a little more detail

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/i...behind-revenue/

[witesoxfan]

The article mentions it, but I saw it last night on my phone - gross payrolls will be greater than $3 billion for the first time this year.

[Marty34]

People who rag on the fans for their support are really advocating franchise relocation.

[bigruss]

People who rag on the fans for their support are really advocating franchise relocation.

Yea, please move my favorite team far away from me!!

[Dick Allen]

People who rag on the fans for their support are really advocating franchise relocation.

And people who search for crap to rag about need to find a new hobby.

[Marty34]

And people who search for crap to rag about need to find a new hobby.

 

Dick Allen, lets meet at a Sox game this year and bury the hatchet.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I agree that the price we will pay now and a few years into the future is the result of Kenny being ultra aggressive.

And this is simply incorrect.

 

Look at all the good players we have. Who acquired them? Kenny Williams, usually by being aggressive. Now look at who else is out there that we once had down on the farm but who is now performing elsewhere.... it's Gio who he traded for several years of 1B/OF candidate Swisher, who was very talented and just got paid, and then there's injured and perennially overrated Dan Hudson who was sent out for Jackson, who was supposed to help us win during the 2010-11 massive payroll spike. Who else is out there ater that? Morse? Carter possibly if he can keep it up. Who else?

 

One of the biggest knocks on KW is the farm system. This was NOT Kenny. Kenny, under Reinsdorf, wasn't going to abuse the system. You can blame Kenny for the personnel involved, especially the ones who picked players like Whisler, Broadway, McCulloch, etc. but that's about it. What have we seen from Hahn thaty says he's any better at evaluating talent than Kenny Williams? Nothing. If anything, I think most of the Sox personnel problems, whether it was Ozzie, Dave Wilder, the skimming scouts, etc. came from lack of proper oversight/too long of a leash being given out. This extends from the top down and in those respects no one should expect things to change much under Hahn.

 

Think about what Kenny did after 2006 for example, after we finished 3rd in the division after running out one of, if not *the* most talented all-around team in baseball that year. In a 2 year span Kenny added multi-year pieces in Floyd, Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and the thought was that Swisher was one too. We lost Chris Carter and Gio, big whoopie. Fans b**** about the '07 pen and laugh at the '08 Griffey deadline deal, but Kenny got a contributor in Griffey for the short bit he played, and that '07 pen was stacked with big arms who all could have gone the way Jones did last year, but didn't, because baseball is baseball and a very difficult game to predict. But after '06 Kenny had a lot less to work with than Hahn does now, and he extended out a new window by being aggressive and making the big move. Hahn has done jack.

 

Hahn deserves no credit. Kenny set him up to do work and he's done nothing but play Halo on XBox for all anyone can tell.

[Marty34]

Yea, please move my favorite team far away from me!!

 

That's exactly what they are saying.

[The Ultimate Champion]

For the first time that I can remember, the White Sox have enough talent in the minor leagues that I can look at it and safely believe that they will have atleast 5 steady contributors from that system at the MLB level at some point in time within the next 3-4 years. I look at it and see a guy who has superstar potential in Courtney Hawkins and a couple of different pitchers who have top of the rotation talent. I'm not sure if people wanted Hahn to deal from that and get marginal upgrades at best or shred it Veeck style to sell off for maybe one or two playoff runs, or to sign free agents which cripple the team's long-term financial goals, or to blow up and absolutely forego any sort of chance at competition in the next 3-5 years while cutting attendance by about 20% starting next year. Do any of those make sense?

There are probably 5-10 things wrong with this post but I'm just going to grab onto this one because it is by far the most glaring. Who are you to say we have 5 key contributors on the farm just by looking at some prospect list? Nobody knows, that is why prospects are traded. In very recent history the Sox have gotten more out of non-prospects/hardly mentionable players like Quintana, Santiago, Alexei who was dogged by evaluators, DeAza, Jones, etc. than they got out of all those great Jeff Abbotts and Joe Borchards and so on. All these great players the Royals just traded away may all be busts,. You don't know, neither do I, and so you have no reason to believe Courtney Hawkins or anyone else is going to be a good player just because Keith Law finally likes a Sox prospect. Guess what? He loved Mitchell too, but now everyone hates Mitchell. People here were saying how good Jordan Danks was going to be. There are always potentially impactful prospects in the minors and this will never change as long as pro scouts are out scouting and MLB clubs are handing out bonuses. Whether their names appear on lists or not, nobody knows what they are going to do and so you can't credit a guy for hanging on to players few of us really know anything at all about and players whose futures are totally up in the air. And really, who here wants to trade prospects for win-now vets? It seems this site wants to continue to build toward the future anyway. Regardless, Hahn hasn't taken any direction.

[witesoxfan]

You are using the Nick Swisher trade to justify Ken Williams as GM.

 

Gio Gonzalez has put up 12.8 fWAR since being traded (included 5.4 last year, 4th best in the majors), Ryan Sweeney has put up 7.6, De Los Santos has put up 0.3, and Kanekoa Texeira put up 0.2. That's a total of 20.9 fWAR Williams traded away involving Swisher.

 

Swisher put up 1.3 fWAR here. We're at 19.6.

 

He was traded for Jhonny Nunez (0 fWAR), Jeff Marquez (-0.1 fWAR), and Wilson Betemit (-0.6 fWAR). We're back up to 20.3.

 

The total cumulative sum of the Nick Swisher trade is -20.6 fWAR and rising for the White Sox.

 

Arguing that Williams aggressiveness is justified based off of the Nick Swisher trade is like arguing that heroin is a good drug to use for opiate withdrawals.

[ptatc]

People who rag on the fans for their support are really advocating franchise relocation.

Fans who don't show up at the ballpark and support the team are advocating for franchise relocation.

[Dick Allen]

And this is simply incorrect.

 

Look at all the good players we have. Who acquired them? Kenny Williams, usually by being aggressive. Now look at who else is out there that we once had down on the farm but who is now performing elsewhere.... it's Gio who he traded for several years of 1B/OF candidate Swisher, who was very talented and just got paid, and then there's injured and perennially overrated Dan Hudson who was sent out for Jackson, who was supposed to help us win during the 2010-11 massive payroll spike. Who else is out there ater that? Morse? Carter possibly if he can keep it up. Who else?

 

One of the biggest knocks on KW is the farm system. This was NOT Kenny. Kenny, under Reinsdorf, wasn't going to abuse the system. You can blame Kenny for the personnel involved, especially the ones who picked players like Whisler, Broadway, McCulloch, etc. but that's about it. What have we seen from Hahn thaty says he's any better at evaluating talent than Kenny Williams? Nothing. If anything, I think most of the Sox personnel problems, whether it was Ozzie, Dave Wilder, the skimming scouts, etc. came from lack of proper oversight/too long of a leash being given out. This extends from the top down and in those respects no one should expect things to change much under Hahn.

 

Think about what Kenny did after 2006 for example, after we finished 3rd in the division after running out one of, if not *the* most talented all-around team in baseball that year. In a 2 year span Kenny added multi-year pieces in Floyd, Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and the thought was that Swisher was one too. We lost Chris Carter and Gio, big whoopie. Fans b**** about the '07 pen and laugh at the '08 Griffey deadline deal, but Kenny got a contributor in Griffey for the short bit he played, and that '07 pen was stacked with big arms who all could have gone the way Jones did last year, but didn't, because baseball is baseball and a very difficult game to predict. But after '06 Kenny had a lot less to work with than Hahn does now, and he extended out a new window by being aggressive and making the big move. Hahn has done jack.

 

Hahn deserves no credit. Kenny set him up to do work and he's done nothing but play Halo on XBox for all anyone can tell.

Well KW took over a 95 win team in 2000 and made them, (if you want to give the GM all the credit and all the blame) 83 game winners. Hahn has inherited an 85 win team. I know it is against all baseball rules to make trades and sign people after January 14th, the time that rosters must be set. Just remember your boy KW at this time last year lost Buerhle, traded Quentin and Santos for minor leaguers that didn't contribute in 2012. Other than that, less than Hahn has done this year. Before you continue to make a fool of yourself, why don't you wait until they start playing games that count to see where the team is at? If he does nothing or does something that doesn't work and the team isn't very good......fire away.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Dick Allen