Rick Hahn

[hogan873]

People who rag on the fans for their support are really advocating franchise relocation.

I'm not sure what this means.

 

If you're saying those who rag on the fans who don't support the team are the ones advocating relocation, that doesn't make sense at all. If you're saying it's the fans who don't go to the games who are advocating relocation, that's still wrong.

 

There have been enough discussions here about the price to attend Sox game for all to be aware that it's not something everyone can do. And most who can do it can't afford to do it many times.

 

There are plenty of ways to support a team, and attending the game is just one. Merchandise is huge. Plus with agreements with the channels that broadcast games, the teams make money when people tune in.

[witesoxfan]

There are probably 5-10 things wrong with this post but I'm just going to grab onto this one because it is by far the most glaring. Who are you to say we have 5 key contributors on the farm just by looking at some prospect list? Nobody knows, that is why prospects are traded. In very recent history the Sox have gotten more out of non-prospects/hardly mentionable players like Quintana, Santiago, Alexei who was dogged by evaluators, DeAza, Jones, etc. than they got out of all those great Jeff Abbotts and Joe Borchards and so on. All these great players the Royals just traded away may all be busts,. You don't know, neither do I, and so you have no reason to believe Courtney Hawkins or anyone else is going to be a good player just because Keith Law finally likes a Sox prospect. Guess what? He loved Mitchell too, but now everyone hates Mitchell. People here were saying how good Jordan Danks was going to be. There are always potentially impactful prospects in the minors and this will never change as long as pro scouts are out scouting and MLB clubs are handing out bonuses. Whether their names appear on lists or not, nobody knows what they are going to do and so you can't credit a guy for hanging on to players few of us really know anything at all about and players whose futures are totally up in the air. And really, who here wants to trade prospects for win-now vets? It seems this site wants to continue to build toward the future anyway. Regardless, Hahn hasn't taken any direction.

 

If you walk blindly into traffic, you might make it to the other side. Nobody knows! Of course, you could look down the street both ways, or wait for the crosswalk to cross, using other information you have to come to a relatively safe conclusion.

 

And of course, there are scouting reports, statistics, reports, and any number of other evaluative tools used that help determine that these guys have potential.

 

I don't know, you're right, but you don't either. And, just for s***s and giggles, do you remember how many trades Williams made prior to the 2005 season? Two. Lee for Podsednik, Vizcaino, and Hinton, and Alex Escobar for Jerry Owens. And you know how many trades he made during the season? One - Ryan Meaux for Geoff Blum.

 

You are calling for action when your hero didn't do s*** on the trade market prior to winning a World Series. He really didn't have much success other than that year either.

 

[Dick Allen]

What I don't understand is many used to bank on the Sox making some sort of move right before Soxfest which always occurs at the end of January.

 

Now, for some reason, people are convinced the team's roster is set a week and a half before Soxfest even begins and more importantly, 2 1/2 months before the season starts. I guess anything to be able to complain.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Marty34]

Fans who don't show up at the ballpark and support the team are advocating for franchise relocation.

 

We're both right.

[southsider2k5]

And this is simply incorrect.

 

Look at all the good players we have. Who acquired them? Kenny Williams, usually by being aggressive. Now look at who else is out there that we once had down on the farm but who is now performing elsewhere.... it's Gio who he traded for several years of 1B/OF candidate Swisher, who was very talented and just got paid, and then there's injured and perennially overrated Dan Hudson who was sent out for Jackson, who was supposed to help us win during the 2010-11 massive payroll spike. Who else is out there ater that? Morse? Carter possibly if he can keep it up. Who else?

 

One of the biggest knocks on KW is the farm system. This was NOT Kenny. Kenny, under Reinsdorf, wasn't going to abuse the system. You can blame Kenny for the personnel involved, especially the ones who picked players like Whisler, Broadway, McCulloch, etc. but that's about it. What have we seen from Hahn thaty says he's any better at evaluating talent than Kenny Williams? Nothing. If anything, I think most of the Sox personnel problems, whether it was Ozzie, Dave Wilder, the skimming scouts, etc. came from lack of proper oversight/too long of a leash being given out. This extends from the top down and in those respects no one should expect things to change much under Hahn.

 

Think about what Kenny did after 2006 for example, after we finished 3rd in the division after running out one of, if not *the* most talented all-around team in baseball that year. In a 2 year span Kenny added multi-year pieces in Floyd, Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and the thought was that Swisher was one too. We lost Chris Carter and Gio, big whoopie. Fans b**** about the '07 pen and laugh at the '08 Griffey deadline deal, but Kenny got a contributor in Griffey for the short bit he played, and that '07 pen was stacked with big arms who all could have gone the way Jones did last year, but didn't, because baseball is baseball and a very difficult game to predict. But after '06 Kenny had a lot less to work with than Hahn does now, and he extended out a new window by being aggressive and making the big move. Hahn has done jack.

 

Hahn deserves no credit. Kenny set him up to do work and he's done nothing but play Halo on XBox for all anyone can tell.

 

I really liked Kenny as GM, but this is one place where Kenny failed. As general manager Kenny Williams was in charge of the distribution of assets. He made the conscious decision to put money and minor league players into acquiring major league players. He is the one who put the emphasis elsewhere, not Hahn, or anyone else.

[iamshack]

I really liked Kenny as GM, but this is one place where Kenny failed. As general manager Kenny Williams was in charge of the distribution of assets. He made the conscious decision to put money and minor league players into acquiring major league players. He is the one who put the emphasis elsewhere, not Hahn, or anyone else.

I'm not sure if it was Kenny who failed, per se...more like we took gambles that could have worked out, but didn't. Had we went further in '08, had we won the division in '12, I think the gambles might have been viewed by more as worth it. However, we did not, and thus the gambles did not pan out, but ultimately, these were organizational failings, not those of just one man.

[The Ultimate Champion]

If you walk blindly into traffic, you might make it to the other side. Nobody knows! Of course, you could look down the street both ways, or wait for the crosswalk to cross, using other information you have to come to a relatively safe conclusion.

 

And of course, there are scouting reports, statistics, reports, and any number of other evaluative tools used that help determine that these guys have potential.

 

I don't know, you're right, but you don't either. And, just for s***s and giggles, do you remember how many trades Williams made prior to the 2005 season? Two. Lee for Podsednik, Vizcaino, and Hinton, and Alex Escobar for Jerry Owens. And you know how many trades he made during the season? One - Ryan Meaux for Geoff Blum.

 

You are calling for action when your hero didn't do s*** on the trade market prior to winning a World Series. He really didn't have much success other than that year either.

Kenny claimed Jenks and added him to the roster. He traded CLee for Pods & Viz. He signed Iguchi. He signed Hermanson. He signed Dye. Politte he IIRC took a flyer on the year before, same with Contreras, but both were really 2005 projects just like Rios was more a 2010 move than a 2009 move. He signed AJ, he signed El Duque. That was the most active Sox offseason I can remember and you're trying to boil it down to 2 trades, one of which was inconsequential both short and long term.

 

As far as action, he claimed some 4th OF from San Diego and signed a UT player to be a starter. This could be Teahen again for all we know. Peavy is what it is.

 

My problem is that this organization NEEDS action. Hahn is standing on the sidewalk pushing the Walk button and nothing is happening. There aren't any cops around, but should he go? Should he really break the law? That would make him a criminal. Wait, there's an old lady 3/4 a mile down the ropad barely breakiing 20. Should he go? Should he go? If he stays then he's definitely not going to get hurt. Coast is clear, but maybe the cop is hiding behind a bush. He's probably stoned so that's a very plausible scenario for him at the moment. He's probably hungry too. There's a chicken place down the road and as soon as the old lady passes - provided he sees no cop and no other cars are coming at the time - he'll go. But only because he's hungry and only if the Walk button lights up like it's supposed to,.

 

You my friend are giving Mr. Hahn way too much credit for doing nothing at all. You are assuming he's making all these smart business decisions holding onto players he could trade, not clearing salary for players he'd like to sign, etc. But while it is bad to go out and actively make a mistake it is a whole lot worse to sit around with a bong in your hand waiting for that mistake to come find *you.*

 

One quick example I'm, going to make is with DeAza. I need to get back to work but Rick Hahn is f***ing me over right now with his inactivity. DeAza has only one good season on his resume; he's a former 4th OF contender who has overachieved and worked his ass off to a starting role; he's a gamer and a battler at the plate, and a good learner, but nothing he does wows anyone. He is arb-eligible also and could easily, on paper, fall below his pay at some point in the near future OR become expensive. He's the kind of guy who toiled in the minors and fought injury and might be amenable to a team-friendly 3-5 year deal that could save someone a lot of money, but he could also be a bad contract waiting to happen. Either way the clock is on and ticking. And no matter what position you play him, you see it as public record that he is uncomfortable in CF and when watching him you can see that for yourself. We all at SoxTalk, as intelligent baseball fans, know that right now Alejandro DeAza has value. The Sox shopping him would seem to indicate he is not expected to be a core player on the next great Sox team, for whatever reason which none of us would know. Either DeAza goes now for whatever his value is now and we get *something* or we wait and see. If we wait and see, he would have to well exceed last years performance to well up his value since, while a 2nd good season makes him more desirable, it also is counteracted by making him more expensive, less likely to sign an extension before FA, etc. DeAza's 2012 production seems to be pretty close to his ceiling. So if he's not supposed to be part of the long-term plans then what are we waiting for? What great event is supposed to happen in the next 6-12 months of Alejandro DeAza's career that will make it worth holding on to him now? To me he reminds me of the Royals with DeJesus, where they held on to him far too long. Keeping DeAza IMO is juist as big a risk as trading him, and if he has a bad April going into May, this board is going to be furious with Hahn and for very good reason.

 

A good GM is good at both identifying risks and positioning himself to guard against some of the worst possible ones. Hahn has shown me nothing that says he's anything but scared. KW held onto Borchard until he became a full bust. He held onto Danny Wright & Jon Rauch way too long too. He tried Kip Wells at a good time but for the wrong player; he traded Gio at the right time TWICE but finally for a good player who let him down. Kenny knows what he's doing and he needs to come back & make me feel safe again.

[southsider2k5]

Seriously, you have zero idea what Rick Hahn is actually doing, none at all. I'm not quite sure why you would be acting like you do know. I seriously wonder if you actually believe that because few deals have actually gotten done, that Hahn and his staff have been doing nothing all winter. If this is true, it is actually kind of sad.

 

This is a cute little caricature you have built of Hahn, but it is delusional. Heck it is bordering on meatball Bears fan for over-reaction of the millennium.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I really liked Kenny as GM, but this is one place where Kenny failed. As general manager Kenny Williams was in charge of the distribution of assets. He made the conscious decision to put money and minor league players into acquiring major league players. He is the one who put the emphasis elsewhere, not Hahn, or anyone else.

He wanted to win and so did Jerry. He wasn't going to routinely go over slot for anyone. Remember what a big deal it was for the Sox to go over slot for Jordan Danks in IIRC the 6th round? The Sox competition did this s*** all the time without thinking about it, but with the Sox it was a big deal. This is Jerry, not Kenny.

 

And again, WHO ARE WE ACTUALLY MISSING? Hudson? Gio? Carter? Morse? That's all I can think of. One of the biggest knocks on KW re: moves he made was teh 2nd Swisher deal, dumping him for nothing and signing Viciedo with some of that cash. That however was actually the right attitude to have in wanting to drop a clubhouse cancer and had the organization - i.e. JERRY REINSDORF - allowed Kenny to continue with that mindset in 2010 then Ozzie's ass would have been out the door and for all we know that much-maligned Edwin Jackson-Hudson deal could have helped result in at least 1, if not 2, playoiff appearances and who knows after that.

 

The KW hate is thick here. Kenny is an icon and a man of great stature period. He is like Mark and AJ, do great things for the organiZation and watch the fans turn on you.

[southsider2k5]

He wanted to win and so did Jerry. He wasn't going to routinely go over slot for anyone. Remember what a big deal it was for the Sox to go over slot for Jordan Danks in IIRC the 6th round? The Sox competition did this s*** all the time without thinking about it, but with the Sox it was a big deal. This is Jerry, not Kenny.

 

And again, WHO ARE WE ACTUALLY MISSING? Hudson? Gio? Carter? Morse? That's all I can think of. One of the biggest knocks on KW re: moves he made was teh 2nd Swisher deal, dumping him for nothing and signing Viciedo with some of that cash. That however was actually the right attitude to have in wanting to drop a clubhouse cancer and had the organization - i.e. JERRY REINSDORF - allowed Kenny to continue with that mindset in 2010 then Ozzie's ass would have been out the door and for all we know that much-maligned Edwin Jackson-Hudson deal could have helped result in at least 1, if not 2, playoiff appearances and who knows after that.

 

The KW hate is thick here. Kenny is an icon and a man of great stature period. He is like Mark and AJ, do great things for the organiZation and watch the fans turn on you.

 

Because of the terrible emphasis, both on the draft and foreign scouting, there is no telling who else we missed on drafting or signing. The easy way out is to only point at trades. It goes much deeper than that.

[hogan873]

Seriously, you have zero idea what Rick Hahn is actually doing, none at all. I'm not quite sure why you would be acting like you do know. I seriously wonder if you actually believe that because few deals have actually gotten done, that Hahn and his staff have been doing nothing all winter. If this is true, it is actually kind of sad.

 

This is a cute little caricature you have built of Hahn, but it is delusional. Heck it is bordering on meatball Bears fan for over-reaction of the millennium.

It's gotten pretty ridiculous. We're to assume, based on the thoughts of some here, that since Hahn has only signed Peavy and Keppinger that he's going to do nothing else before the season starts. It's January 15, and people believe that the offseason is over.

 

Whether or not more moves are made (and I believe there will be), I'm certain that Hahn is not sitting quietly and doing nothing. He knows better than any of us what needs to be done to improve the team. If and when the right deal comes around, a trade will be made. He's not going to trade someone just to make a move. If he can move Floyd, Thornton, and/or an outfielder and acquire a left-handed bat he will, as long as a deal makes sense.

[witesoxfan]

The KW hate is thick here. Kenny is an icon and a man of great stature period. He is like Mark and AJ, do great things for the organiZation and watch the fans turn on you

 

I've seen crazy and over the top, but this is far and away the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen posted on this website. It's not only wrong, but it's the absolute farthest possible from the truth. It's complete lunacy.

[bmags]

Why was the Z capitalized?

[bhawk99]

They just interupted the regularly scheduled TV programming with breaking news. The Amber alert for Rick Hahn has been finally lifted. He was found cowaring under Kenny Williams old desk shaking and crying like a little baby muttering that he is in over his head in this new job. Disregard any milk cartons that still have his picture on the side of them. Hahn was rushed to a nearby hospital to see if they could sew a set of nuts on him. Stay tuned for updates.

[southsider2k5]

They just interupted the regularly scheduled TV programming with breaking news. The Amber alert for Rick Hahn has been finally lifted. He was found cowaring under Kenny Williams old desk shaking and crying like a little baby muttering that he is in over his head in this new job. Disregard any milk cartons that still have his picture on the side of them. Hahn was rushed to a nearby hospital to see if they could sew a set of nuts on him. Stay tuned for updates.

 

Yes, he hasn't made any big trades, because he is a girl, and obviously inferior.

 

I can't wait for a new update.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Why was the Z capitalized?

I was fuming with anger and the fingers were flying and I was just absolutely beside myself and so I accidentally hit the shift key in my ferocious typing tornado and capitalized a z mid-word improperly which I am sure was only one of several key errors including apparently some logical ones which kept me from forming a proper arguement. Oh and I am a rebel too which is why I am not going to go back and fix that red underlined word immediately to my left. Can y6ou spot it? I can. Thank you red line.

[ScottyDo]

It's probably worth noting that the suddenly-canonized Kenny Williams is still in the front office. It is unlikely that Hahn is sitting on his hands without some level of input and agreement from Williams.

[bigruss]

Kenny and Rick are just hotboxing Rick's office. Letting anyone in or out would ruin all the hardwork they've spent on being patient enough to get that office just the way they like it.

 

Seriously people, calm down.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Because of the terrible emphasis, both on the draft and foreign scouting, there is no telling who else we missed on drafting or signing. The easy way out is to only point at trades. It goes much deeper than that.

Again, how much of this is Kenny?

 

The difference between a "stacked" draft under the old CBA and a middling typical Sox draft may have only been a couple million dollars in overslot bonuses to players who fell. The difference between a productive international signing period and your typical middling Sox international signing period is, again, generally a couple million dollars under the old system. For about a $4M difference you are going to go from heading toward a mid-tier farm system in the general rankings from the bottom of the pack, and the Sox constantly avoided doing it. Do you honestly think KW, who in spite of a generally weak farm was still among the most active GMs in the game, is going to hamstring himself over the price of a bench player or two, or one middle reliever? This was JR sticking to his guns, not KW believing the farm is unimportant. And as far as some of those bad 1st round picks it is very unclear how much of that is really on Kenny. Kenny wanted Schueler gone apparently for a long while before he was dismissed. Kenny also wanted Ozzie gone long before he was dismissed. Way too much responsibility was given to Wilder and obviously the proper checks and balances in the DR were not in place. Blaming Kenny for EVERYTHING is just perfectly acceptable in terms of your general "X is responsible anyone below him" thinking as this is at least supposed to be a well-structured organization but if you apply that to Kenny then you need to look above him as well. Kenny did very well within what we know was his sphere, but we also know that he didn't have full control over those decisions one would normally think a GM has full control over. You don't tell your hitting coach to clean his locker out only to welcome him back through the door 5 mins later just because you had a sudden change of heart.

[southsider2k5]

Again, how much of this is Kenny?

 

The difference between a "stacked" draft under the old CBA and a middling typical Sox draft may have only been a couple million dollars in overslot bonuses to players who fell. The difference between a productive international signing period and your typical middling Sox international signing period is, again, generally a couple million dollars under the old system. For about a $4M difference you are going to go from heading toward a mid-tier farm system in the general rankings from the bottom of the pack, and the Sox constantly avoided doing it. Do you honestly think KW, who in spite of a generally weak farm was still among the most active GMs in the game, is going to hamstring himself over the price of a bench player or two, or one middle reliever? This was JR sticking to his guns, not KW believing the farm is unimportant. And as far as some of those bad 1st round picks it is very unclear how much of that is really on Kenny. Kenny wanted Schueler gone apparently for a long while before he was dismissed. Kenny also wanted Ozzie gone long before he was dismissed. Way too much responsibility was given to Wilder and obviously the proper checks and balances in the DR were not in place. Blaming Kenny for EVERYTHING is just perfectly acceptable in terms of your general "X is responsible anyone below him" thinking as this is at least supposed to be a well-structured organization but if you apply that to Kenny then you need to look above him as well. Kenny did very well within what we know was his sphere, but we also know that he didn't have full control over those decisions one would normally think a GM has full control over. You don't tell your hitting coach to clean his locker out only to welcome him back through the door 5 mins later just because you had a sudden change of heart.

 

If the Sox had hit on an occasional draft pick or signing during this time period, some of Williams deals become unnecessary. Again, it is a secondary level effect of neglecting the farm system. Instead of developing a CF at some point, we had to try to trade for them on multiple occasions.

[The Ultimate Champion]

It's probably worth noting that the suddenly-canonized Kenny Williams is still in the front office. It is unlikely that Hahn is sitting on his hands without some level of input and agreement from Williams.

Hey I canonized Kenny a long damn time ago. Kenny has his Reinsdorfian golden parachute retirement prize position now. Sure he's "in the front office" on your computer screen should you take the time to visit whitesox.com but in reality he's on a beach somewhere and the only thing he's scouting is ass. And here I am freezing my balls off getting all worked up over Alejandro DeAza's trade value. Thanks Rick.

[The Ultimate Champion]

If the Sox had hit on an occasional draft pick or signing during this time period, some of Williams deals become unnecessary. Again, it is a secondary level effect of neglecting the farm system. Instead of developing a CF at some point, we had to try to trade for them on multiple occasions.

Actually the failure of KW to acquire a CF for multiple years was one of Kenny's biggest misses. But he had Sweeney and Anderson on the farm who were supposed to be good one day, plus Chris Young who KW was vilified for, etc. and then Joe Borchard was a CF prospect for a time, and a huge one, as was Jeremy Reed, and all of these guys were at one time very highly touted and consensus ranked top prospects, with a couple being elite in the game. The farm had CF penciled in as more of a strength in terms of prospect depth, but they didn't turn out. If you're going to blame Kenny and say he failed because these guys didn't turn out then go ahead and call everyone else in the game, every GM and every talent evaluator who also liked these players when they were prospects, failures too. Kenny doesn't deserve to be criticized for BA not listening to his coaches or Sweeney not acquiring that power he was supposed to develop, but he does deserve to be criticized for running out Jerry Owens and DeWayne Wise as starting CFs and opening up with Grinderstad in CF as opposed to anyone with any kind of long-term organizational value. So yeah, you hit on one potential area for KW criticism, but only kind of by accident, like when Mike MacDougal found the strikezone.

[ScottyDo]

Hey I canonized Kenny a long damn time ago. Kenny has his Reinsdorfian golden parachute retirement prize position now. Sure he's "in the front office" on your computer screen should you take the time to visit whitesox.com but in reality he's on a beach somewhere and the only thing he's scouting is ass. And here I am freezing my balls off getting all worked up over Alejandro DeAza's trade value. Thanks Rick.

Yeah, you have internal consistency in loving Kenny Williams, but that's not so true of some of the other Hahn detractors coming out of the woodwork. I also generally defended Kenny but just because I like one guy doesn't mean another guy with a different style (though there must be quite a bit of overlap after working with him for years) is worthless. Even though Kenny's aggressive approach and efficient usage of free agency worked in some ways, he had deficiencies that anyone can note.

 

His approach appears to be different from Hahn's, but that doesn't mean Hahn's is worse. Heck, they might even be nearly identical, we just don't have much information to go off of. It has not yet been ONE FULL OFFSEASON. They should just end the Kentucky Derby right after the horses leave the gates, right? It's already obvious who's the best horse and who's the worst.

Edited January 15, 2013 by ScottyDo

[bigruss]

Hey I canonized Kenny a long damn time ago. Kenny has his Reinsdorfian golden parachute retirement prize position now. Sure he's "in the front office" on your computer screen should you take the time to visit whitesox.com but in reality he's on a beach somewhere and the only thing he's scouting is ass. And here I am freezing my balls off getting all worked up over Alejandro DeAza's trade value. Thanks Rick.

If it sucks so much then just stop.

 

Rick clearly explored his options for every player on the team I'm sure. He, and the FO, didn't like what was offered then. He's waiting to either get a better deal, and if it doesn't come along then this team is competitive enough to put butts in the seats.

[southsider2k5]

Actually the failure of KW to acquire a CF for multiple years was one of Kenny's biggest misses. But he had Sweeney and Anderson on the farm who were supposed to be good one day, plus Chris Young who KW was vilified for, etc. and then Joe Borchard was a CF prospect for a time, and a huge one, as was Jeremy Reed, and all of these guys were at one time very highly touted and consensus ranked top prospects, with a couple being elite in the game. The farm had CF penciled in as more of a strength in terms of prospect depth, but they didn't turn out. If you're going to blame Kenny and say he failed because these guys didn't turn out then go ahead and call everyone else in the game, every GM and every talent evaluator who also liked these players when they were prospects, failures too. Kenny doesn't deserve to be criticized for BA not listening to his coaches or Sweeney not acquiring that power he was supposed to develop, but he does deserve to be criticized for running out Jerry Owens and DeWayne Wise as starting CFs and opening up with Grinderstad in CF as opposed to anyone with any kind of long-term organizational value. So yeah, you hit on one potential area for KW criticism, but only kind of by accident, like when Mike MacDougal found the strikezone.