Steubenville Rape Case

[bmags]

I read that, but I wonder where the enliven project's data came from? The Slate article says where they got theirs, but not where Enliven's comes from or why it's inferior.

 

I don't think they were working with bad data, the problem was the graphics misrepresented the data.

[StrangeSox]

Slate links to RAINN's data, but I have no idea what data Enliven was using.

[Balta1701]

Either way, thank you for the update.

[Jake]

Slate links to RAINN's data, but I have no idea what data Enliven was using.

 

http://theenlivenproject.com/the-challenge-of-data/

 

[StrangeSox]

good find, jake

 

Some reports suggest that only 5-25% of rapes are reported to authorities. Other suggest that close to half are reported. We assumed 10%, which is dramatic, but possible.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

A lot of crimes come down to "he said, she said." It only really seems to be a 'problem' when it comes to rape.

 

Not sure what this means. I'd say most civil and criminal cases come down to he said/she said, witness statements, credibility of witnesses, etc. and is a "problem" in terms of proof. Rape is kind of unique in that it's almost always 2 people alone. There's not a document, photograph or video to corroborate what each person is saying. Add in booze, add in drugs, add in flirtation that is difficult to read, add in history between the two involved, etc. and those he said she said issues become even more complicated.

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

How often is there a document, photograph or video of a crime? How often is a crime mostly "he said, she said" and reliant on the credibility of the witnesses?

 

The idea that rape, beyond the evidence that some sexual act took place, is often "he said, she said" is marshaled out in defense of low rape conviction/prosecution rates but I don't see it as any different from a whole lot of other crimes which rely on the exact same sort of evidence. I put the scare quotes there for that reason, because it's brought up as a problem for rape prosecution but not other crimes. As I'm sure you remember, I do have my own larger issues with eye-witness testimony and why it's problematic, but given that most rapes are by someone known to the victim, those concerns are diminished.

[bmags]

http://theenlivenproject.com/the-challenge-of-data/

 

Yeah...why does it seem these info graphics are almost always poorly put together. They compiled different data from different time spots, and used a confusing "person" graphic. Just silly.

[Jenksismyhero]

How often is there a document, photograph or video of a crime? How often is a crime mostly "he said, she said" and reliant on the credibility of the witnesses?

 

The idea that rape, beyond the evidence that some sexual act took place, is often "he said, she said" is marshaled out in defense of low rape conviction/prosecution rates but I don't see it as any different from a whole lot of other crimes which rely on the exact same sort of evidence. I put the scare quotes there for that reason, because it's brought up as a problem for rape prosecution but not other crimes. As I'm sure you remember, I do have my own larger issues with eye-witness testimony and why it's problematic, but given that most rapes are by someone known to the victim, those concerns are diminished.

 

Most crimes have other witnesses and other evidence about the "result" of the crime. You have that in some rape cases, but not the majority. That, and rape requires a lack of consent, which is only proven by the statements of the victim. We effectively take the victim at their word, and then the defense is left to combat that with the only thing they have - "well I didn't understand the situation that way, I thought she wanted to."

 

What other crimes are you thinking about? I'd bet assault crimes have a similar low success rate because it depends entirely on the mental state of the victim. Anything to do with contracts and ambiguous terms are all he said she said. I dunno, I'm drawing a blank on anything else that's similar.

 

Edit: I'll add too that in all the cases I work on (wrongful deaths to fighting over contract terms), if the evidence comes down to he said, she said, I always advise my client that that's the s***tiest case you can have because the facts no longer mean anything and it's all about who the judge/jury finds to be more credible.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

Any sort of sexual or racial harassment could easily fall under that type of circumstance.

[Jenksismyhero]

Any sort of sexual or racial harassment could easily fall under that type of circumstance.

 

And those have the same issues, but you have more evidence available - the make-up of the company, treatment of other females/minorities in the company, personnel files, etc. Rape is the word of the victim without evidence of physical trauma in the majority of cases.

[Melissa1334]

The mother f***ing loser in that 12 minutes video is "no longer a student at the Ohio State University" as of today.

i thought they expelled him, guess not. he dropped out due to threats. so they werent even going to do anything to him? :/

[Jake]

Yeah...why does it seem these info graphics are almost always poorly put together. They compiled different data from different time spots, and used a confusing "person" graphic. Just silly.

 

Well, it's impossible to have conclusive data. They did research, exercised judgment on what they believe to be accurate, and went with it to help the issue gain more attention. It is an exceptionally hard crime to measure when so many go unreported. How many people are robbed and don't report it? There are very significant hurdles to feeling comfortable reporting what happened to you in this case and it just makes it difficult to say definitively, quantitatively the amount of unprosecuted rapists out there. Estimating is okay in my book when it isn't far out there and the methods are transparent.

[GoodAsGould]

My girlfriend is a therapist and she stated the same thing. For the longest time I thought that it was about sex as well. Men who rape women are simply sociopaths. The sheer irrationality that it takes to commit such a hanus act is simply mind boggling.

 

Sociopaths isn't the right word, there definitely aren't as many true sociopaths in the world as there are rapists.

[pettie4sox]

Sociopaths isn't the right word, there definitely aren't as many true sociopaths in the world as there are rapists.

 

So how can a person commit the act of rape if they are not sociopaths?

[witesoxfan]

So how can a person commit the act of rape if they are not sociopaths?

 

I would say sociopath is a good term to use.

 

so·ci·o·path

noun, Psychiatry.

a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I would say sociopath is a good term to use.

 

so·ci·o·path

noun, Psychiatry.

a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

 

I think there's your difference there. Most rapes aren't random crazies assaulting women. These guys in Ohio weren't pyschopaths, just ginormous assholes with no morals that were protected by their town. It's Varsity Blues in real life.

[EvilMonkey]

I think there's your difference there. Most rapes aren't random crazies assaulting women. These guys in Ohio weren't pyschopaths, just ginormous assholes with no morals that were protected by their town. It's Varsity Blues in real life.

But they did lack the sense of moral responsibilty and so on due to the way they have been pandered to during their football careers. They did it because they thought they were better than her, better than others and above the rules normal people follow. The coaches, teachers and parents taught them that. The whole town should be ashamed.

[StrangeSox]

Absolutely, but I don't know that they could be accurately diagnosed with an actual psychological disorder.

[pettie4sox]

It's just my lowly opinion of course but I just think to have the state of mind to do something like to a human being is surreal. That's why sociopath came to mind. As Alpha Dog pointed out, they lacked all sorts of morals and thought they were above everyone else. I hope they are brought to justice! If you're a woman in Steubenville, dare I say it's open season for rape if you have the right connections?

[StrangeSox]

I think it's dangerous to assign these horrible acts to some form of mental illness. It serves to innoculate us against the idea that otherwise normal people sometimes do, support or turn a blind eye to awful things.

[Jake]

But they did lack the sense of moral responsibilty and so on due to the way they have been pandered to during their football careers. They did it because they thought they were better than her, better than others and above the rules normal people follow. The coaches, teachers and parents taught them that. The whole town should be ashamed.

 

Totally agree. These acts, and I would say most rapes, come out of a sense of learned superiority. This is probably usually gender-based, but I doubt these football players would be against committing other crimes out of a sense of privilege.

 

Absolutely, but I don't know that they could be accurately diagnosed with an actual psychological disorder.

 

Agreed. I don't think these people were predisposed to this sort of behavior in the sense that they had a mental disorder waiting to be triggered, they were simply given the reins to do these things without fear of punishment and they did them.

[witesoxfan]

I think it's dangerous to assign these horrible acts to some form of mental illness. It serves to innoculate us against the idea that otherwise normal people sometimes do, support or turn a blind eye to awful things.

 

Normal people don't commit these acts because these are not normal acts. They are violent, cruel, and inhumane. To suggest that people who gangrape a girl are normal is also incorrect.

[StrangeSox]

Normal people turned a blind eye at best to chattel slavery for generations. Normal people turned a blind eye or actively bought into Nazi propaganda. The Stanford Prison Experiment showed that otherwise normal people are capable of f***ed up things, given the right situation.

 

That doesn't mean any one of us is ready to go out and rape, though, just that we can't pretend that these sorts of terrible acts don't have a long and broad history in humanity.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Timothy Burke ‏@bubbaprog

April baseball team gang rape in Steubenville allegedly involves a student who is now a prominent D-I athlete. Stay tuned...