2014 Youth Movement?

[witesoxfan]

The White Sox are my proof.

 

Really? They drew 2 million fans, which was 9th in the AL. That's not a good number, but consider that the 5 teams below them - Tampa Bay (worst stadium in an impossible location), Cleveland (terrible), Oakland (terrible stadium), Seattle (terrible team), and Kansas City (terrible team, mediocre stadium, AND they hosted the All-Star game).

 

The Blue Jays were 8th with 2.1 million. The rest are teams that generally draw well, have new stadiums, are good, or some combination of those 3.

[caulfield12]

Really? They drew 2 million fans, which was 9th in the AL. That's not a good number, but consider that the 5 teams below them - Tampa Bay (worst stadium in an impossible location), Cleveland (terrible), Oakland (terrible stadium), Seattle (terrible team), and Kansas City (terrible team, mediocre stadium, AND they hosted the All-Star game).

 

The Blue Jays were 8th with 2.1 million. The rest are teams that generally draw well, have new stadiums, are good, or some combination of those 3.

 

 

KC's stadium is better than mediocre.

 

It's the best park that was built in the late 60's/early 70's, by far.

[Marty34]

Really? They drew 2 million fans, which was 9th in the AL. That's not a good number, but consider that the 5 teams below them - Tampa Bay (worst stadium in an impossible location), Cleveland (terrible), Oakland (terrible stadium), Seattle (terrible team), and Kansas City (terrible team, mediocre stadium, AND they hosted the All-Star game).

 

The Blue Jays were 8th with 2.1 million. The rest are teams that generally draw well, have new stadiums, are good, or some combination of those 3.

 

I think the Sox get the attendance they deserve. SS2K5 believes otherwise

[caulfield12]

I think the Sox get the attendance they deserve. SS2K5 believes otherwise

 

Like the Rays and A's?

[Marty34]

Boras, who doesn’t let any baseball financial aspect escape him, has made a study of payrolls and has found, he said, that most teams have lower payrolls five weeks before spring training than their highest opening-day payrolls since the 2000 season.

 

“Only about five teams have higher payrolls,” the agent said. “Everybody else is below even though revenue is up by 200 percent and the value of franchises is up 300, 400 percent. What we’re seeing is not many teams are spending on payrolls despite the fact that their profits are extraordinary. You’d expect teams to have their highest payrolls but they don’t.” [...]

 

Boras’ point [is] that so many clubs are spending less on players’ salaries while producing greater revenue.

 

“There’s a whole bunch of teams that still have a great deal of dollars to improve their team,” the agent said.

 

The current payrolls Boras has computed will rise with teams’ signing of their unsigned players, including those eligible for salary arbitration. Some teams will sign free agents, mostly the inexpensive variety. But the eventual opening-day numbers for these teams will not reach their record highs. I say record highs because payrolls since 2000 have exceeded any prior to that year. [...]

 

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=5694

 

The Sox have no debt to payoff. They could afford their highest payroll.

[southsider2k5]

The White Sox are my proof.

 

Here is the proof you are wrong.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml

 

Note the difference in the drops between the White Flag years where they lost over 500,000 fans in one year's time, and 2011 and 2012 when we entered the current retooling phase and lost 35,000 fans, YOY.

[Marty34]

Here is the proof you are wrong.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml

 

Note the difference in the drops between the White Flag years where they lost over 500,000 fans in one year's time, and 2011 and 2012 when we entered the current retooling phase and lost 35,000 fans, YOY.

 

2.5M the last time they made the playoffs. 1.96M last year.

[southsider2k5]

2.5M the last time they made the playoffs. 1.96M last year.

 

Even when you try to re-frame the argument for yourself, you make my point for me. Thanks.

 

Instead bringing in a bunch of bad will and press while emptying the ballpark, the hit to the fanbase is much quieter, gradual, and returns much more quickly. The last time the Sox had a massive, public sell-off they lost 500,000 fans in one year. Even without winning a division since 2008, the franchise took five seasons to lose that many.

 

It is also worth noting that despite winning a division in 2008, their attendance was down almost 200,000 people from 2007, which blows another hole in the "sustained success" (remember that was their 2nd playoff appearance in 4 seasons, including a World Series title, and 3 seasons of 89 or more wins). They didn't show up the year after that either, so argument is also DOA.

 

 

 

 

[Marty34]

Even when you try to re-frame the argument for yourself, you make my point for me. Thanks.

 

Instead bringing in a bunch of bad will and press while emptying the ballpark, the hit to the fanbase is much quieter, gradual, and returns much more quickly. The last time the Sox had a massive, public sell-off they lost 500,000 fans in one year. Even without winning a division since 2008, the franchise took five seasons to lose that many.

 

It is also worth noting that despite winning a division in 2008, their attendance was down almost 200,000 people from 2007, which blows another hole in the "sustained success" (remember that was their 2nd playoff appearance in 4 seasons, including a World Series title, and 3 seasons of 89 or more wins). They didn't show up the year after that either, so argument is also DOA.

 

The problem is the team lost 500,000 in attendance AND the they still have to rebuild.

[witesoxfan]

The problem is the team lost 500,000 in attendance AND the they still have to rebuild.

 

No they don't

[southsider2k5]

The problem is the team lost 500,000 in attendance AND the they still have to rebuild.

 

So your argument is that you would have sold off everyone after winning the division title in 2008? Because for this argument to be even valid, you are choosing that for your starting point. If that was the case, we would have lost WAY more than 500,000 fans in five years. I would bet we'd be talking a million AT LEAST for selling off a team after a division winning season.

[Marty34]

So your argument is that you would have sold off everyone after winning the division title in 2008? Because for this argument to be even valid, you are choosing that for your starting point. If that was the case, we would have lost WAY more than 500,000 fans in five years. I would bet we'd be talking a million AT LEAST for selling off a team after a division winning season.

 

I doubt it.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I doubt it.

 

We lost 500,000 in one year for a team that sold off when they were 3.5 games out of first on July 31. What do you think the attendance drop would look like for a team that won a division title and sold off Marlins style?

 

Also, nice deflection. The numbers proved you wrong, which is why you never offered any proof, as usual.

 

 

[Marty34]

We lost 500,000 in one year for a team that sold off when they were 3.5 games out of first on July 31. What do you think the attendance drop would look like for a team that won a division title and sold off Marlins style?

 

Also, nice deflection. The numbers proved you wrong, which is why you never offered any proof, as usual.

 

You get personal after you were called out on "proof" you were offered that was no worse than yours.

[southsider2k5]

You get personal after you were called out on "proof" you were offered that was no worse than yours.

 

lol, yeah, that's what I expected. I am still waiting for some proof on any of the following...

 

-attendance drops from a gradual rebuild are less than a full rebuild

-full rebuilds that were actually successful in a five year period

-the team would have lost fewer fans in a full rebuild after the 2008 season than they did as history currently holds

-Sox fans respond to "sustained success" even though after winning 2 division titles and a World Series within 4 years of each other, attendance fell almost 500,000 fans from 2006 to 2008, and 700,000 if you include 2009.

-How far would attendance fall if the team were to sell off this winter

 

To quote someone... "I doubt it."

 

[Marty34]

lol, yeah, that's what I expected. I am still waiting for some proof on any of the following...

 

-attendance drops from a gradual rebuild are less than a full rebuild

-full rebuilds that were actually successful in a five year period

-the team would have lost fewer fans in a full rebuild after the 2008 season than they did as history currently holds

-Sox fans respond to "sustained success" even though after winning 2 division titles and a World Series within 4 years of each other, attendance fell almost 500,000 fans from 2006 to 2008, and 700,000 if you include 2009.

-How far would attendance fall if the team were to sell off this winter

 

To quote someone... "I doubt it."

 

Fan bases get decimated by repeatedly missing the postseason. That's a true statement.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Marty34

[ZionrulZ]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1480298...icago-white-sox

[floridafan]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1480298...icago-white-sox

 

He put up some big numbers this past season! Looks like he had a BA of .397 one season with the Mets too!

 

I am so excited to see we picked up another 3rd Baseman!

[caulfield12]

Can he be any worse than Morel/Hudson for the first half last year?

 

I know, I know....he was injured, but my God, last year made Chris Snopek and Greg Norton look like quite credible third sackers.

[Balta1701]

Can he be any worse than Morel/Hudson for the first half last year?

 

I know, I know....he was injured, but my God, last year made Chris Snopek and Greg Norton look like quite credible third sackers.

(That's why we have Keppinger)

[Texsox]

Where I thought Marty was going, but didn't was, making the playoffs increases attendance, missing decreases attendance, it doesn't matter what marketing calls the current strategy. That I can agree with. And somewhere someone mentioned rebuilding is rarely a one step process. It seems like its building and building and building until a little luck and some great moves all collide at the right moment.

[Vance Law]

Now, 2B has become more of a power position than even 3B, which is a bit strange since you normally think of 3B as bigger/stronger, typically.

 

Average team last year got a .699 OPS and 13 HR from 2nd basemen, and .753 OPS and 20 HR from 3rd basemen.

 

[caulfield12]

Average team last year got a .699 OPS and 13 HR from 2nd basemen, and .753 OPS and 20 HR from 3rd basemen.

 

 

I guess it was psychology that got me. Our 3B last year until YOUK were so anemic, and then every time I looked at Beckham's OPS, it was in the bottom 3-5 in the majors. Beckham really was close to horrible offensively for 2/3rd's of last season.

 

There used to be a very clear differentiation there between the two. Now they're almost interchangeable, except from a defensive standpoint.

[harfman77]

Trading Paulie now for a decent return would make a 2014 youth movement more palpable. There are a few teams that could use his bat and offer back something that could be significant down the road.

[Balta1701]

Trading Paulie now for a decent return would make a 2014 youth movement more palpable. There are a few teams that could use his bat and offer back something that could be significant down the road.

Take a second and think about how limited the number of teams he fits with are. Konerko is under contract for 1 year, so the team trading for him needs to be ready to compete this year. Konerko is well paid, >$10 million, so the team needs to have money to spend. The team needs to have a hole at 1b, and it helps if the team also can move Konerko to DH for part of the time, as that helps keep him healthy. How many teams are left that this fits? Now throw in the fact that Konerko's a 10/5 player and thus has a full No Trade Clause if he wants to exercise it.

 

Getting a significant offer for a guy usually means that you have multiple teams in the running for him who will drive the price up. I have trouble thinking of any teams that fit all of those.