One in Three Living in Poverty in Illinois

[southsider2k5]

You're not going to learn IT, skilled trades or engineering by working public service menial labor jobs.

 

And by keeping them on welfare or unemployment you ensure that as well. Plus you keep them dependent on the system.

[StrangeSox]

I am.

 

You're saying having people do jobs that require no skills gives them no opportunity to learn a skill. That's your justification for not making them work those jobs to get their handouts. However we have lots of people already working these same unskilled jobs making quite a bit of money.

 

Well, earlier there was talk of having them pick up trash etc. Those are low-skill positions that aren't going to lead to "marketable" skills. We don't have many of those positions in the public sector.

 

So, are you talking about that sort of make-work, or are you talking about public IT and engineering and skilled labor jobs? Those are jobs that generally require years of experience and training, not something someone who's temporarily on assistance can just jump into and skill-up.

 

[StrangeSox]

I wouldn't go that far. Gernally, yes. However, there are some (politicians) that I may disagree with.

Compared to where they're usually coming from and where they go afterwards, politicians really don't make that much. That's more about power and access than the wages paid.

[ptatc]

What do you do for the government?

 

 

 

Because outside a few government jobs, which I understand need to be filled because the state does have some functions it has to attend to, they could never cut it in the private world.

 

EDIT- Actually, I doubt the veracity of what you're saying. I dont usually ask for proof of anything (because its a waste of time), but I wonder.

University professor for a state affiliated school. We used to be state schools but since the state support for the school has dropped 60% in the last 10 years, I now refers to us as state affiliated.

[StrangeSox]

Because outside a few government jobs, which I understand need to be filled because the state does have some functions it has to attend to, they could never cut it in the private world.

 

lol

 

EDIT- Actually, I doubt the veracity of what you're saying. I dont usually ask for proof of anything (because its a waste of time), but I wonder.

google is your friend

[ptatc]

Compared to where they're usually coming from and where they go afterwards, politicians really don't make that much. That's more about power and access than the wages paid.

It's the employment they get after they leave office that is the real incentive for most cases.

[DukeNukeEm]

Well, earlier there was talk of having them pick up trash etc. Those are low-skill positions that aren't going to lead to "marketable" skills. We don't have many of those positions in the public sector.

 

So, are you talking about that sort of make-work, or are you talking about public IT and engineering and skilled labor jobs? Those are jobs that generally require years of experience and training, not something someone who's temporarily on assistance can just jump into and skill-up.

Make-work, and judging by what I've seen living in and around Chicago all but a small portion of my life that's primarily what the public sector does. Not 100% of what it does, but much closer to that extreme than the other.

 

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, one day I plan on finding out.

[StrangeSox]

And by keeping them on welfare or unemployment you ensure that as well. Plus you keep them dependent on the system.

They are not being "kept" on welfare or unemployment. Soup kitchens didn't cause the Great Depression.

 

Working some menial temp job isn't going to get you an engineering or IT education.

[ptatc]

lol

 

 

google is your friend

Because everything on the internet is true. Just ask my French model girlfriend!

 

I couldn't resist, I use that commercial for the benefit of my kids and students all the time.

[StrangeSox]

Make-work, and judging by what I've seen living in and around Chicago all but a small portion of my life that's primarily what the public sector does. Not 100% of what it does, but much closer to that extreme than the other.

 

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, one day I plan on finding out.

Evaluating the work done by the public sector based on what you literally see. Brilliant.

[DukeNukeEm]

Evaluating the work done by the public sector based on what you literally see. Brilliant.

I shudder to think what kind of stuff they're hiding out of sight. If the s*** I see is so depressing I can only imagine how pathetic it gets once you pierce the viel.

[ptatc]

They are not being "kept" on welfare or unemployment. Soup kitchens didn't cause the Great Depression.

 

Working some menial temp job isn't going to get you an engineering or IT education.

It's only a temp job, if you don't work to do anything else. As I stated earlier. Make a college prep part of it or something else.It's not like the current system is preparing them for anything else. Many people go into a depression and lose self-worth when they aren't a contributer to society. I really believe you will help the self image of many people by giving them employment along with monetary aid, instead of just monetary aid with no contribution.

[southsider2k5]

They are not being "kept" on welfare or unemployment. Soup kitchens didn't cause the Great Depression.

 

Working some menial temp job isn't going to get you an engineering or IT education.

 

Limiting opportunities and programs does.

[Jenksismyhero]

Government workers are generally paid less than their private-sector colleagues. Duke doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

When you take out top level CEO's that skew the numbers, I don't think this is true at all, especially when you consider employment benefits.

[mr_genius]

You're not going to learn IT, skilled trades or engineering by working public service menial labor jobs.

 

It can be done. I know this for a fact.

[StrangeSox]

It's only a temp job, if you don't work to do anything else. As I stated earlier. Make a college prep part of it or something else.It's not like the current system is preparing them for anything else. Many people go into a depression and lose self-worth when they aren't a contributer to society. I really believe you will help the self image of many people by giving them employment along with monetary aid, instead of just monetary aid with no contribution.

I have no objection to outreach and educational programs being offered. I don't object to voluntary work programs being available, and completely agree about the self-image part. I spent the last 15 minutes digging through the CTU strike thread to find this from a friend of mine:

 

http://liveandknot.wordpress.com/2012/09/1...hers-narrative/

 

My grandfather and father were both glass benders in the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Union (IBEW). My grandfather was diagnosed with mesothelioma in his later years from exposure to asbestos where he worked. His working conditions led to his early departure. The union helped fight for safe working conditions, a fair wage, and dignity in work. My father lost his job when I was in eighth grade and he was able to petition the union to investigate the issue. Eventually the union found that my dad was fired without just cause and he got his job back. It wasn’t before long that my parents moved to Florida ad my dad got a job for far less pay at a non-union shop. Over time he grew unhappy with his situation in a slowly dying industry. He didn’t feel dignified in what he did anymore and wanted out. He eventually quit his job, went on a downward spiral of anger, drugs, and drinking. He was unemployed, bitter, and on a quest for a disability check which he believed he was owed because of his mental condition. Last year he was found dead in his bed with too much alcohol and opiates in his system. My dad fought with a lot of demons and his passing is very complicated, but I like to think that if he had the opportunity to find dignified work that he would have had the strength to still be here.

 

what I don't agree with is making these things mandatory. I don't believe that the people who truly are lazy, irresponsible and don't give a f*** deserve to starve to death.

[StrangeSox]

Limiting opportunities and programs does.

 

Food assistance and unemployment don't limit opportunities. Being forced to take the first job you can find, no matter how terrible or low-paying or ill-fitting it is because you'll starve otherwise sure as hell does.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's only a temp job, if you don't work to do anything else. As I stated earlier. Make a college prep part of it or something else.It's not like the current system is preparing them for anything else. Many people go into a depression and lose self-worth when they aren't a contributer to society. I really believe you will help the self image of many people by giving them employment along with monetary aid, instead of just monetary aid with no contribution.

 

Not to mention the key part to this - a lot of these people are now working at jobs instead of on the streets causing trouble.

 

And SS, how is holding a temp job not a marketable skill? When you go from "I sit at home and play on my Xbox all day" to "i work 40 hours a week with a great ability to multi-task!" how is that not better? And as I said before, make it an incentive program to eventually get hired with the city.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

As for the study that showed governmental employees make less than the private sectors... It was conducted by the Federal Salary Council. This group is governmental agency out of the executive branch. Who makes up this group you ask? According to its Wiki...

 

which include three experts in labor relations and pay policy and six representatives of Federal labor unions and other employee organizations representing large numbers of GS employees. The FSC submits recommendations on the locality pay program to the President's Pay Agent.

 

So basically a labor union wrote a report saying its employees were underpaid.

 

So yeah... In other news Scott Boras put out a report that baseball players are underpaid.

[StrangeSox]

When you take out top level CEO's that skew the numbers, I don't think this is true at all, especially when you consider employment benefits.

I don't see why you should take out top-level CEO salary. Do we take out top-level administration (vastly lower than their private sector counterparts) in the public sector, too?

[StrangeSox]

Not to mention the key part to this - a lot of these people are now working at jobs instead of on the streets causing trouble.

 

Which is why I'm totally onboard with voluntary jobs, education and community programs.

 

And SS, how is holding a temp job not a marketable skill? When you go from "I sit at home and play on my Xbox all day" to "i work 40 hours a week with a great ability to multi-task!" how is that not better? And as I said before, make it an incentive program to eventually get hired with the city.

 

Picking up trash for 40 hours a week isn't going to land you the types of jobs that are actually open right now. The city isn't going to be massively expanding payrolls--state and local governments have cut huge amounts of jobs over the past several years, something that's really hampered the recovery.

 

Here's an example of the type of s***ty jobs available and why it's so hard to climb out of poverty:

 

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2012/12/13/mc...od-retail-ceos/

[StrangeSox]

As for the study that showed governmental employees make less than the private sectors... It was conducted by the Federal Salary Council. This group is governmental agency out of the executive branch. Who makes up this group you ask? According to its Wiki...

 

 

 

So basically a labor union wrote a report saying its employees were underpaid.

 

So yeah... In other news Scott Boras put out a report that baseball players are underpaid.

 

So basically a panel that was partially composed of labor representatives issued a report based on BLS data.

[Y2HH]

So basically a panel that was partially composed of labor representatives issued a report based on BLS data.

 

Not counting benefits, they'd make less...counting benefits, they make more. Pure and simple.

 

And taking out the top 1% of earners from both categories will completely skew it in favor of the public sector making more. Most people in the private sector aren't paid what CEO's are paid, so stop pretending they should be included in this just so your point holds up, that's absurd.

 

And finally, don't just take salary as compensation, you have take the entire package, including benefits. Benefits are where the public sector tends to make up anything they're not getting in up front salary.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Not counting benefits, they'd make less...counting benefits, they make more. Pure and simple.

 

And taking out the top 1% of earners from both categories will completely skew it in favor of the public sector making more. Most people in the private sector aren't paid what CEO's are paid, so stop pretending they should be included in this just so your point holds up, that's absurd.

 

First, don't just take salary as compensation, you have take the entire package, including benefits.

 

Keep in mind that this is a comparison of similarly skilled/educated white-collar workers, not to the entirety of the private sector.

 

I know most people in the private sector aren't paid what CEO's are paid. Most people in the public sector aren't paid what public administrators are paid. But I see no reason that they shouldn't be included (without similarly discounting their public counterparts) nor do I know that it's essential to the research.

 

Benefits packages are definitely part of the trade-off. Public employees get lower wages, aren't part of bonus pools, etc. but they historically enjoy higher job security and good retirement plans (private sector used to, too, but those are mostly gone).

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't see why you should take out top-level CEO salary. Do we take out top-level administration (vastly lower than their private sector counterparts) in the public sector, too?

 

I think including the very small number of people making millions a year inflates the average private sector number. If you want to look at the "real" comparison you have to take those out. Public sector counterparts still make good money, but it's 5-6 times the average, not 50-100 (or more)