The Wussification of America

[Balta1701]

Because people who can find jobs they don't want like to admit it...

 

This can't be cited or sourced because if they admitted it, they'd lose their unemployment benefits.

Considering that, unlike every recession since the depression, we allowed a whole large chunk of people's unemployment benefits to dry up before the return of anything resembling full employment...if people are sitting at home unemployed in this recession and they actually received unemployment benefits...those are long gone. Those ended, for that group, 2 years ago.

[Balta1701]

I bet a few...but that wasn't the question now was it?

No, but you're pretending it's an important point, that it's somehow an indictment of this generation of people and something that never happened in society before these wussies came along.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, it was more the bs comment "I don't know what you are saying here."

 

No I honestly don't understand what the point you were making there was. That could entirely be on my end.

[Y2HH]

Considering that, unlike every recession since the depression, we allowed a whole large chunk of people's unemployment benefits to dry up before the return of anything resembling full employment...if people are sitting at home unemployed in this recession and they actually received unemployment benefits...those are long gone. Those ended, for that group, 2 years ago.

 

"We" didn't allow anything. We extended unemployment benefits to durations never before seen and they still lapsed for some.

 

...and not everyone lost their job at the same time.

[iamshack]

Cite/source?

 

 

There are currently some 3 million unfilled jobs in America right now.

 

Karl Hutter: We can't find enough students who are interested in pursuing these trades. Because it seems hard? I don't know. Because it seems like you have to do math? I don't know.

[Y2HH]

No, but you're pretending it's an important point, that it's somehow an indictment of this generation of people and something that never happened in society before these wussies came along.

 

Actually, no, I never said anything of the sort.

 

But thanks for trying.

[StrangeSox]

Don't be.

 

I bet every last person here knows a 20 something that's not working BECAUSE they can't find the job THEY WANT. They can find jobs...just not the exact job or pay they're looking for...so they CHOOSE to not work instead.

 

I'm one person and I can produce 5 people I know doing this right now.

 

I'd bet you could name a few yourself...and so can everyone else here.

 

So please, let's not pretend otherwise.

 

My brother and my bro-in-law, sort of, they're both working to get music careers off the ground and live at home working odd jobs. I don't know that this represents a 'problem' that needs to be addressed on a societal level, though.

[iamshack]

And do you know how many 20somethings I can name who are working their asses off in school or in positions where they are way underpaid because that's all that they could get?

And that is what people do when things suck. They took some PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. It's called "real life." Now we just need more people to do that.

 

 

[iamshack]

No I honestly don't understand what the point you were making there was. That could entirely be on my end.

You don't understand the difference between claiming there has been a "wussification" of America and saying more people need to buck up and take responsibility when times are tough? The argument of the original poster versus what Y2H and I have been arguing?

[Balta1701]

There are currently some 3 million unfilled jobs in America right now.

You do realize that when a job becomes open, it isn't filled the next day, right? 3 million job openings remains well under the "healthy economy" level of job openings. It was well over 4 million for years during the inadequate 2000's economic growth.

 

And every time you hear a guy say "we can't find people to fill these positions", the first question you should ask him, and the question that never gets asked in that story, is "What are you paying for it". If a guy is running a firm that needs high quality workers, doesn't want to offer training, doesn't offer benefits, pays $13 an hour, and requires a masters degree, then he's right, he'll never find people to fill those positions, because he's not offering a competitive wage for the demands.

[Y2HH]

My brother and my bro-in-law, sort of, they're both working to get music careers off the ground and live at home working odd jobs. I don't know that this represents a 'problem' that needs to be addressed on a societal level, though.

 

It doesn't...given their choice of career, they're looking at a hard road with the potential for a massive payoff, and it seems that their willingness to accept doing odd jobs and live at home shows that they understand that and are willing to accept that trade off for the possibility of being able to live their dream. In turn, they also accept the minute odds of making it in that profession where that profession alone can carry them financially.

 

That's called sacrifice. And I have absolutely nothing against that. What I would have something against is if those same people refused to work because they were holding out to open for Aerosmith, because they're the greatest musicians in the world and everyone should recognize that.

 

The point is, depending on what you choose to do...there are trade offs...some people want to shoot for the stars but they don't want to accept the trade off of doing so.

[iamshack]

You do realize that when a job becomes open, it isn't filled the next day, right? 3 million job openings remains well under the "healthy economy" level of job openings.

 

And every time you hear a guy say "we can't find people to fill these positions", the first question you should ask him, and the question that never gets asked in that story, is "What are you paying for it". If a guy is running a firm that needs high quality workers, doesn't want to offer training, doesn't offer benefits, pays $13 an hour, and requires a masters degree, then he's right, he'll never find people to fill those positions, because he's not offering a competitive wage for the demands.

See, this is precisely what I would have expected from you.

 

You can't have it both ways. It cannot simultaneously be 'the world is ending, this is the "destruction" of the economy, the worst time for humanity in history' and then start complaining that the manufacturing jobs available don't pay enough.

 

And i never said the economy was healthy. You and SS are claiming that there aren't people being picky about the jobs they take. I say there are people who are sitting at home rather than taking a lesser job. SS says give me a source. I provide one. You say THOSE jobs don't pay enough.

 

Ok then.

Edited January 21, 2013 by iamshack

[StrangeSox]

There are currently some 3 million unfilled jobs in America right now.

That doesn't seem like a "personal responsibility" thing.

 

They want skilled, trained labor for $12/hour.

[EvilMonkey]

That doesn't seem like a "personal responsibility" thing.

 

They want skilled, trained labor for $12/hour.

Which is better than $0 per hour.

[Y2HH]

That doesn't seem like a "personal responsibility" thing.

 

They want skilled, trained labor for $12/hour.

 

He said the "students" are starting at 12$ an hour.

 

STUDENTS.

 

As in, those are entry level jobs.

 

That's about what an entry level job is worth in manufacturing.

[StrangeSox]

Apparently not, if those jobs are going unfilled.

[StrangeSox]

Which is better than $0 per hour.

 

Not if it involves significant personal expenses of training and moving.

[Balta1701]

And i never said the economy was healthy. You and SS are claiming that there aren't people being picky about the jobs they take. I say there are people who are sitting at home rather than taking a lesser job. SS says give me a source. I provide one. You say THOSE jobs don't pay enough.

I'm saying it's not a moral failing. It's not a sign of laziness. It's not something a lecture about toughening up is going to solve. It's not even a problem with the employee in that case.

 

The unemployment rate for people with a professional degree or a doctoral degree is ~ 2%. Under 4% for people with masters degrees. So yeah, in that case, people don't need to take jobs that don't pay the prevailing wage...because there actually are jobs available for them which do pay the prevailing wage.

[iamshack]

That doesn't seem like a "personal responsibility" thing.

 

They want skilled, trained labor for $12/hour.

They are working with community colleges to provide the training for free or very little cost. You start at $12/hr, and many skilled machinists can make $60k a year.

[DukeNukeEm]

That doesn't seem like a "personal responsibility" thing.

 

They want skilled, trained labor for $12/hour.

I made it to "Companies that want better workers need to pay more". That's just not how it works, at every job I've ever had you start out with a relatively low wage then prove yourself to be worth a higher wage. When you see a job for $11/hour dont look at that, think about how you can make it $16/hour within a couple years.

 

I'd also rather make $12/hour working 60 hours/week than $15/hour working 40 hours a week.

[iamshack]

Apparently not, if those jobs are going unfilled.

Or maybe there are people sitting on their couch, because this isn't their dream job.

 

So now you and Balta are going to argue that they are not sitting on their couches doing nothing, they are just holding out for better pay?

Edited January 21, 2013 by iamshack

[EvilMonkey]

They are working with community colleges to provide the training for free or very little cost. You start at $12/hr, and many skilled machinists can make $60k a year.

THAT requires long term planning, or at least medium term planning. The instant gratification is not there, they should be starting at the $60k!

[EvilMonkey]

Or maybe there are people sitting on their couch, because this isn't their dream job.

 

So now you and Balta are going to argue that they are not sitting on their couches doing nothing, they are just holding out for better pay?

It is always something. Not enough pay, too much personal cost involved, gotta drive too far, hours are bad, hours are not enough, advancement opportunities not there......

[StrangeSox]

I made it to "Companies that want better workers need to pay more". That's just not how it works,

 

This is basic S&D. If they were offering $50/hour (for extreme example), there would be lines of people out the door.

 

[Y2HH]

This is basic S&D. If they were offering $50/hour (for extreme example), there would be lines of people out the door.

 

Jobs that pay 50$ an hour don't have lines of people out the door...or they wouldn't be paying 50$ an hour.