The Wussification of America

[Reddy]

The point is, sometimes we have to accept that life is going to be hard for a temporary amount of time, and we may not like having to accept working two jobs to make ends meet, but that's life. We do it anyway.

 

OR, we don't do it and b**** about life being unfair and hard and how you coulda' been a contender.

 

or we don't do it (like me) and also don't b**** about life being unfair. I picked a ridiculous field to want to work in (performing) so I made my bed, and I'll sleep in it living paycheck to paycheck.

 

(also my day job of catering pays $23/hour and that requires zero skills besides looking pretty)

Edited January 21, 2013 by Reddy

[StrangeSox]

A university study that shows the university degrees they sell aren't really getting people anywhere?

 

I'm not holding my breath for that data to every be collected and correlated to the real problem.

 

Here's one prominent legal professor who's been exposing the problems with law schools and the legal field:

 

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

 

But I don't really see how your comment is relevant to what I said.

[iamshack]

I don't know that "many kids" qualify for unemployment insurance. I still don't see any support for the idea that there's millions of lazy ass-sitters and all of these open positions that they could have if we successfully lecture them about responsibility, though.

I don't know who qualifies for unemployment insurance, I was just taking your lead.

 

But are you seriously going to tell me that today's American college student, is out there hitting the pavement every day looking for reasonable work? Instead of waiting around to find the job that directly correlates with his major or is in his desired field?

 

I don't know where you live, but I work with several folks who have college age children or recent college grads, and many of them are sitting around waiting for their big break or something as opposed to waiting tables or something.

[StrangeSox]

The point is, sometimes we have to accept that life is going to be hard for a temporary amount of time, and we may not like having to accept working two jobs to make ends meet, but that's life. We do it anyway.

 

OR, we don't do it and b**** about life being unfair and hard and how you coulda' been a contender.

 

So where's the responsibility on the plant owner's part to offer competitive wages to attract people to the jobs? The labor market is a two-way street, like you said earlier.

[iamshack]

So where's the responsibility on the plant owner's part to offer competitive wages to attract people to the jobs? The labor market is a two-way street, like you said earlier.

If he did, the jobs would get shipped back to China again. Americans don't want their jobs going to China, but they also don't want to do them, either.

[DukeNukeEm]

So where's the responsibility on the plant owner's part to offer competitive wages to attract people to the jobs? The labor market is a two-way street, like you said earlier.

Now were deadlocked.

[Y2HH]

or we don't do it (like me) and also don't b**** about life being unfair. I picked a ridiculous field to want to work in (performing) so I made my bed, and I'll sleep in it living paycheck to paycheck.

 

That's exactly it...but you accepted the possible -- and highly probable -- consequences of that choice. A lot of people "chase the dream" only they don't want to accept the fact that the odds are stacked against them.

 

Not to mention, there are a lot of people in hollywood that made it big, only it took them 30 years to get there...and for that 30 years, they struggled every day for the eventual payoff that most people look at and say it was handed to them now that they're living large.

 

I'll admit it...I did the opposite. I didn't chase my dream. I liked IT work, I didn't love it, but I liked it...I really love technology, but not really the technology I work with. But it wasn't my "dream job". My actual dream job was to be a US Forest Service Ranger...don't ask why, I can't explain it. The reason I didn't go after that dream was because I knew what it meant...it meant struggling and being paid a low wage to "do what I love". I'd rather make money doing what I like.

[StrangeSox]

I don't know who qualifies for unemployment insurance, I was just taking your lead.

 

You get unemployment insurance for a number of weeks (was extended to 99, not sure if it's still in place) when you lose your job. UEI is based on what you were making (60% or something like that).

 

But are you seriously going to tell me that today's American college student, is out there hitting the pavement every day looking for reasonable work? Instead of waiting around to find the job that directly correlates with his major or is in his desired field?

 

I'm going to tell you I haven't seen anything to indicate that this is the case for a significant portion or that it makes more sense than pointing to the overall high levels of unemployment and meager job growth we've had for years now. I'm sure glad I graduated when I did and not a few years later.

 

I don't know where you live, but I work with several folks who have college age children or recent college grads, and many of them are sitting around waiting for their big break or something as opposed to waiting tables or something.

 

Do we have an epidemic of unfilled table-waiting jobs? Should these grads move half-way across the country to take some crappy manufacturing job paying $12/hour? I'm still not seeing a "personal responsibility" problem here.

[StrangeSox]

If he did, the jobs would get shipped back to China again. Americans don't want their jobs going to China, but they also don't want to do them, either.

 

They don't want their jobs to go to China, and they don't want to make Chinese-level wages.

[Y2HH]

They don't want their jobs to go to China, and they don't want to make Chinese-level wages.

 

Let them eat cake, I guess.

[DukeNukeEm]

They don't want their jobs to go to China, and they don't want to make Chinese-level wages.

$12/hour is Chinese level wages? Is there another China I dont know about, like a secret borough of New York or a new Atlantis?

[Reddy]

That's exactly it...but you accepted the possible -- and highly probable -- consequences of that choice. A lot of people "chase the dream" only they don't want to accept the fact that the odds are stacked against them.

 

Not to mention, there are a lot of people in hollywood that made it big, only it took them 30 years to get there...and for that 30 years, they struggled every day for the eventual payoff that most people look at and say it was handed to them now that they're living large.

 

I'll admit it...I did the opposite. I didn't chase my dream. I liked IT work, I didn't love it, but I liked it...I really love technology, but not really the technology I work with. But it wasn't my "dream job". My actual dream job was to be a US Forest Service Ranger...don't ask why, I can't explain it. The reason I didn't go after that dream was because I knew what it meant...it meant struggling and being paid a low wage to "do what I love". I'd rather make money doing what I like.

 

makes perfect sense, and actually as you're training as an actor the one thing you hear over and over again is "if there's something else you're good at, something else you enjoy, or like to do besides acting, you better do that."

 

Yeah, maybe it wasn't your dream job - but when it comes down to it, if you enjoy what you do and the quality of life is where you want it - that's a win to me.

 

It's this thing Duke's talking about where he'll take ANY job just to make more money that I don't really understand. Sure you're making 60K now... but is there room to grow? Room for improvement? or will quitting school have limited that? I don't know the answer - just wondering.

[bigruss]

makes perfect sense, and actually as you're training as an actor the one thing you hear over and over again is "if there's something else you're good at, something else you enjoy, or like to do besides acting, you better do that."

 

Yeah, maybe it wasn't your dream job - but when it comes down to it, if you enjoy what you do and the quality of life is where you want it - that's a win to me.

 

It's this thing Duke's talking about where he'll take ANY job just to make more money that I don't really understand. Sure you're making 60K now... but is there room to grow? Room for improvement? or will quitting school have limited that? I don't know the answer - just wondering.

I know plenty of people that turned something they loved doing into a job (mechanic for example), but it ended up ruining what they loved to do because it was now work. Sometimes it's better to find something you don't mind doing for work, and saving what you love to do for hobbies.

[Reddy]

I know plenty of people that turned something they loved doing into a job (mechanic for example), but it ended up ruining what they loved to do because it was now work. Sometimes it's better to find something you don't mind doing for work, and saving what you love to do for hobbies.

 

i think that has to do with someone expecting a job to be one thing and it turning out to be another. A mechanic loves tinkering with cars they have an attachment to, but the majority of what they do in their job is oil changes and boring repetitive tasks like that.

[bigruss]

i think that has to do with someone expecting a job to be one thing and it turning out to be another. A mechanic loves tinkering with cars they have an attachment to, but the majority of what they do in their job is oil changes and boring repetitive tasks like that.

Well this guy did testing/mechanic work for Lotus, so it's a bit different

[iamshack]

You get unemployment insurance for a number of weeks (was extended to 99, not sure if it's still in place) when you lose your job. UEI is based on what you were making (60% or something like that).

 

 

 

I'm going to tell you I haven't seen anything to indicate that this is the case for a significant portion or that it makes more sense than pointing to the overall high levels of unemployment and meager job growth we've had for years now. I'm sure glad I graduated when I did and not a few years later.

 

 

 

Do we have an epidemic of unfilled table-waiting jobs? Should these grads move half-way across the country to take some crappy manufacturing job paying $12/hour? I'm still not seeing a "personal responsibility" problem here.

The last bit gave me a chuckle.

 

Funny that you posted that article about law schools and lawyers...I graduated from law school in May of '07, right before stuff got pretty rough...I applied for numerous jobs to which I was told I was "overqualified." I ended up taking a job with a startup company for $0/hr and working for 8 months and getting paid absolutely nothing, ever. I then moved all the way across the country to take a job in an industry I knew nothing about. In fact, before hearing about the position I ultimately took, I didn't even know such a job existed. Five years later, I have more than doubled my salary and am one of the youngest managers in my company.

 

So yes, I suppose I could have sat around and waited for a more efficient distribution of my legal skills...and I'd probably be haggling in traffic court right now, but instead I chose to do what I had to do at the time and am better for it.

Edited January 21, 2013 by iamshack

[Y2HH]

I think the bottom line is that this is a multi-faceted issue, and in some ways, people lean on excuses instead of accepting their current station in life, how they got there, and what they can do to move forward. I'm not saying everyone falls in this category, my posts are specifically speaking of those that do.

[StrangeSox]

The last bit gave me a chuckle.

 

Funny that you posted that article about law schools and lawyers...I graduated from law school in May of '07, right before stuff got pretty rough...I applied for numerous jobs to which I was told I was "overqualified." I ended up taking a job with a startup company for $0/hr and working for 8 months and getting paid absolutely nothing, ever. I then moved all the way across the country to take a job in an industry I knew nothing about. So basically, I put my legal training on hold, moved across the country, and took a job in a field I knew absolutely nothing about. In fact, before hearing about the position I ultimately took, I didn't even know such a job existed. Five years later, I have more than doubled my salary and am one of the youngest managers in my company.

 

So yes, I suppose I could have sat around and waited for a more efficient distribution of my legal skills...and I'd probably be haggling in traffic court right now, but instead I chose to do what I had to do at the time and am better for it.

 

Was that job paying $12/hour after you went through several months of additional training?

 

edit: can't find it again, but there was some legal firm that was offering paid internships--as in you pay them to job-shadow.

Edited January 21, 2013 by StrangeSox

[iamshack]

I think the bottom line is that this is a multi-faceted issue, and in some ways, people lean on excuses instead of accepting their current station in life, how they got there, and what they can do to move forward. I'm not saying everyone falls in this category, my posts are specifically speaking of those that do.

I think a very general point we can make is that human beings are blessed with very capable minds, that allow them to do many, many other things when focusing on immediate survival needs is not necessary. The standard of living for many Americans has reached a level where for a few generations, immediate survival needs were usually not a concern. This has created a sense of comfort and a lack of awareness of just how hard some of our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents worked to put us in this position. Now that many of us have been accustomed to not worrying about food, shelter, etc, we have been blessed with the luxury of worrying about being famous, or wealthy, or powerful. There isn't necessarily an appreciation just to have a roof over our heads or to know where our next meals are coming from.

 

This doesn't equate to a "moral failing" or even necessarily outright laziness. It's just a level of comfort that has always been there for many in our times.

Edited January 21, 2013 by iamshack

[Reddy]

Well this guy did testing/mechanic work for Lotus, so it's a bit different

haha DAMNIT!

[Reddy]

I think a very general point we can make is that human beings are blessed with very capable minds, that allow them to do many, many other things when focusing on immediate survival needs is not necessary. The standard of living for many Americans has reached a level where for a few generations, immediate survival needs were usually not a concern. This has created a sense of comfort and a lack of awareness of just how hard some of our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents worked to put us in this position. Now that many of us have been accustomed to not worrying about food, shelter, etc, we have been blessed with the luxury of worrying about being famous, or wealthy, or powerful. There isn't necessary an appreciation just to have a roof over our heads or to know where our next meals are coming from.

 

This doesn't equate to a "moral failing" or even necessarily outright laziness. It's just a level of comfort that has always been there for many in our times.

 

this is something i agree with, and we're entering a period - potentially - where many kids like us are going to get a rude awakening when they realize they can't just rely on that college degree the way they had expected to.

[iamshack]

Was that job paying $12/hour after you went through several months of additional training?

 

edit: can't find it again, but there was some legal firm that was offering paid internships--as in you pay them to job-shadow.

No, it paid $57k and a 15% potential bonus. It certainly wasn't a terrible compensation package. However, I did have to spend 6 months just learning about the industry before I could actually perform the job I was hired to do. I did give up the life I had in Chicago and all my friends and family and move clear across the country where I knew essentially no one. I did put the $100k education (which I took out school loans for, mind you) on hold to take a job in an entirely different field which I knew virtually nothing about.

 

Now I could have sat at home on my parents' couch and complained that I couldn't get a job as an attorney making a salary commensurate with my level of education. And I could have scoffed at the notion of taking a job making $40k, because "that is what I could have been making coming out of undergrad!" But I applied for all sorts of jobs in retail and the food and beverage industry, making essentially the same $36k I was making before I went back to undergrad, but was told I was overqualified. I took an unpaid job in a startup company. Ultimately, I realized the opportunities seemed few and far between and took the first good one I had, even though I had to move all the way across the country for it.

 

I realize there are plenty of people doing these things today, too. What I did, and what others did, is not some Herculean effort or anything. It is called taking responsibility for your lot in life. We'd like to see a lot of others do it too, instead of complaining so much, that's all.

Edited January 21, 2013 by iamshack

[StrangeSox]

I think a very general point we can make is that human beings are blessed with very capable minds, that allow them to do many, many other things when focusing on immediate survival needs is not necessary. The standard of living for many Americans has reached a level where for a few generations, immediate survival needs were usually not a concern. This has created a sense of comfort and a lack of awareness of just how hard some of our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents worked to put us in this position. Now that many of us have been accustomed to not worrying about food, shelter, etc, we have been blessed with the luxury of worrying about being famous, or wealthy, or powerful. There isn't necessary an appreciation just to have a roof over our heads or to know where our next meals are coming from.

 

This doesn't equate to a "moral failing" or even necessarily outright laziness. It's just a level of comfort that has always been there for many in our times.

 

I guess where I'm coming from in these discussions is for the significant number of Americans who aren't at that level and do have to worry about survival day-to-day or week-to-week, and that there's a lack of awareness of just how hard many Americans right now have to work just to keep their heads above water. When the conversation focuses on "personal responsibility" or "laziness," it misses an overwhelming majority of the people in poverty and unfairly frames their position as one of their own failures.

[iamshack]

I guess where I'm coming from in these discussions is for the significant number of Americans who aren't at that level and do have to worry about survival day-to-day or week-to-week, and that there's a lack of awareness of just how hard many Americans right now have to work just to keep their heads above water. When the conversation focuses on "personal responsibility" or "laziness," it misses an overwhelming majority of the people in poverty and unfairly frames their position as one of their own failures.

I understand there are people in poverty that do not include recent college grads refusing to work at the local Applebee's because it is beneath them. But that is a separate argument than the one being made in this thread. At least as far as I understand it.

 

The OP's original point seemed to be targeting those individuals that were of "average" income or above the poverty line. Maybe I was mistaken.

[StrangeSox]

No, it paid $57k and a 15% potential bonus. It certainly wasn't a terrible compensation package. However, I did have to spend 6 months just learning about the industry before I could actually perform the job I was hired to do. I did give up the life I had in Chicago and all my friends and family and move clear across the country where I knew essentially no one. I did put the $100k education (which I took out school loans for, mind you) on hold to take a job in an entirely different field which I knew virtually nothing about.

 

Now I could have sat at home on my parents' couch and complained that I couldn't get a job as an attorney making a salary commensurate with my level of education. And I could have scoffed at the notion of taking a job making $40k, because "that is what I could have been making coming out of undergrad!" But I applied for all sorts of jobs in retail and the food and beverage industry, making essentially the same $36k I was making before I went back to undergrad, but was told I was overqualified. I took an unpaid job in a startup company. Ultimately, I realized the opportunities seemed few and far between and took the first good one I had, even though I had to move all the way across the country for it.

 

I realize there are plenty of people doing these things today, too. What I did, and what others did, is not some Herculean effort or anything. It is called taking responsibility for your lot in life. We'd like to see a lot of others do it too, instead of complaining so much, that's all.

 

Ok, so it wasn't really comparable to a job paying less than half of that and that likely didn't offer any benefits. There's little incentive to undertake substantial changes in your life for a $12/hour job with a limited ceiling and that's always on the brink of being outsourced.