The Wussification of America

[Y2HH]

I don't believe god exists. Feel free to point to any study showing otherwise.

 

This scene, from this underrated movie, puts this into words I simply love.

 

Forward to 2:47

 

Edited February 8, 2013 by Y2HH

[GoodAsGould]

<!--quoteo(post=2759065:date=Feb 7, 2013 -> 08:28 AM:name=BigSqwert)-->

<!--quotec-->I don't believe god exists. Feel free to point to any study showing otherwise.

 

This scene, from this underrated movie, puts this into words I simply love.

 

Forward to 2:47

 

 

Any movie that hollywoods the end of a classic book can't be underrated.

[Y2HH]

Any movie that hollywoods the end of a classic book can't be underrated.

 

It's hollywood, I've come to expect that, so I tend to overlook it.

[ptatc]

How is being something God made you a sin and how is one forgiven for it considering it’s not something one can change?

Being in a profession based on science we don't get into religious issues much at the workplace. However, there was an interesting one the other day. The topic of homosexuality came and and one of the researchers said it is an "abnormal behavior." The questions was brought up as why. She replied if all animals were meant to be homosexual there would be no species propagation and they would cease to exist. It's not wrong because there are different behaviors ion all animals but it isn't the norm.

 

I never really looked at it that way and still haven't figured out the concept in my own mind.

[ptatc]

I'm sure there are some. Duke university has years of studies that show smoking cigarettes are good for your health.

Duke is in North Carolina where the major crop is tobacco. The state probably gave them very specific parameters for a study to increase sales.

[Balta1701]

Being in a profession based on science we don't get into religious issues much at the workplace. However, there was an interesting one the other day. The topic of homosexuality came and and one of the researchers said it is an "abnormal behavior." The questions was brought up as why. She replied if all animals were meant to be homosexual there would be no species propagation and they would cease to exist. It's not wrong because there are different behaviors ion all animals but it isn't the norm.

 

I never really looked at it that way and still haven't figured out the concept in my own mind.

The real trick is getting people to associate a negative connotation with "Abnormal". People with blonde hair are abnormal. In this country, black people are abnormal.

[ptatc]

The real trick is getting people to associate a negative connotation with "Abnormal". People with blonde hair are abnormal. In this country, black people are abnormal.

Exactly. Abnormal doesn't mean negative just not the norm. Positive or negative is a judgement someone puts on something.

[TomSeaverFan]

But to the people who want to come in here and make snarky comments about how Christians behave hypocritically, remind yourself that tolerance is a two way street.

 

I do sense a double standard sometimes on TV. I think a lot of people offend religious people, especially the Catholics, and would never go anywhere near there on sexuality issues or other issues.

[Y2HH]

I do sense a double standard sometimes on TV. I think a lot of people offend religious people, especially the Catholics, and would never go anywhere near there on sexuality issues or other issues.

 

You want anti-wussification? You got it.

 

It's en vogue to offend Catholics and Scientoligists...but stay away from offending Jews and/or Muslims right now...because that'd be a career killing sin.

 

What I'm about to say may offend the religious. So consider yourself forewarned before you continue reading and get...offended, despite the fact that everything you claim to believe in...teaches forgiveness and understanding.

 

 

IMO, offend them all...constantly, and outwardly, openly and honestly. Don't hold back. Question everything, including the existence of God. Any God and all God's for that matter. If "he" exists, "he'd" want you too...it's why "he" "gave us" free will. If "he" didn't want us to question "his" existence, "he" wouldn't have done that, which uses their own absurd reasoning against them. IMO, this is because nobody can take religion as it was meant to be taken, in small, non-literal, lesson teaching doses. It was nothing more than a teaching/control mechanism. But people ALWAYS end up taking it to the extreme with nothing but nonsense and half truths, where they lean on the word "faith" so they never have to bother proving anything. They best part of this is, if you know anyone like this, I guarantee they take their religion al-la-carte, because it's convenient. And worse, the loudest of them are ALWAYS liars, cheaters, scammers and adulterers. All. f***ing. Ways. Yet, if and when you argue with them about the existence of God, their entire argument will revolve around *you* having to prove otherwise. Happened to me recently, and I had to point out that it's never the job of someone to prove non-existence...it is, however, the job of someone to prove *existence*, which is, of course, where their lazy assed faith argument will enter the equation. At that point, they don't actually feel the need to prove anything, despite the fact that they "just know they're right". This is *always* the bane of their argument. Because they have no actual arguments. They base everything on faith, but want you to base everything on imperial scientific proof. How convenient.

 

In a nutshell, this is how they want it: If/when something good happens to you, praise be to God. Ignoring the fact that if you sat on your ass and put fourth no effort, it never would have happened. But, despite that, when something good occurs, be sure to credit "him" for it. But if/when something bad happens to you, it's because God has a plan. Oh, well...that's sound logic. And to that, I say, if that's the case...that petulant child can go f*** "himself". Because the fact that "he" has innocent 6 month old children suffering in 3rd world countries, or even in first world countries of incurable diseases...that tells me that "he" doesn't give a flying f*** about us. Therefore, "he" shouldn't care that I don't give a flying f*** about "him", either.

 

 

Oh, and I enjoyed going back to exploit my excessive use of ""'s.

 

...and may God forgive me for my moment of doubt. But the longer I see the world the way it is, the more impossible it becomes to believe in anything other than the real.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Y2HH

[kapkomet]

You want anti-wussification? You got it.

 

It's en vogue to offend Catholics and Scientoligists...but stay away from offending Jews and/or Muslims right now...because that'd be a career killing sin.

 

What I'm about to say may offend the religious. So consider yourself forewarned before you continue reading and get...offended, despite the fact that everything you claim to believe in...teaches forgiveness and understanding.

 

 

IMO, offend them all...constantly, and outwardly, openly and honestly. Don't hold back. Question everything, including the existence of God. Any God and all God's for that matter. If "he" exists, "he'd" want you too...it's why "he" "gave us" free will. If "he" didn't want us to question "his" existence, "he" wouldn't have done that, which uses their own absurd reasoning against them. IMO, this is because nobody can take religion as it was meant to be taken, in small, non-literal, lesson teaching doses. It was nothing more than a teaching/control mechanism. But people ALWAYS end up taking it to the extreme with nothing but nonsense and half truths, where they lean on the word "faith" so they never have to bother proving anything. They best part of this is, if you know anyone like this, I guarantee they take their religion al-la-carte, because it's convenient. And worse, the loudest of them are ALWAYS liars, cheaters, scammers and adulterers. All. f***ing. Ways. Yet, if and when you argue with them about the existence of God, their entire argument will revolve around *you* having to prove otherwise. Happened to me recently, and I had to point out that it's never the job of someone to prove non-existence...it is, however, the job of someone to prove *existence*, which is, of course, where their lazy assed faith argument will enter the equation. At that point, they don't actually feel the need to prove anything, despite the fact that they "just know they're right". This is *always* the bane of their argument. Because they have no actual arguments. They base everything on faith, but want you to base everything on imperial scientific proof. How convenient.

 

In a nutshell, this is how they want it: If/when something good happens to you, praise be to God. Ignoring the fact that if you sat on your ass and put fourth no effort, it never would have happened. But, despite that, when something good occurs, be sure to credit "him" for it. But if/when something bad happens to you, it's because God has a plan. Oh, well...that's sound logic. And to that, I say, if that's the case...that petulant child can go f*** "himself". Because the fact that "he" has innocent 6 month old children suffering in 3rd world countries, or even in first world countries of incurable diseases...that tells me that "he" doesn't give a flying f*** about us. Therefore, "he" shouldn't care that I don't give a flying f*** about "him", either.

 

 

Oh, and I enjoyed going back to exploit my excessive use of ""'s.

 

...and may God forgive me for my moment of doubt. But the longer I see the world the way it is, the more impossible it becomes to believe in anything other than the real.

 

Humanity has free will for a reason.

 

I guess I better not even say anything other then that.

[Y2HH]

Humanity has free will for a reason.

 

I guess I better not even say anything other then that.

 

I.E., more nonsense. Explain everything whilst explaining nothing at all.

[kapkomet]

I.E., more nonsense. Explain everything whilst explaining nothing at all.

 

 

You have to listen to something other then your own opinion, to which you're not equipped.

[Y2HH]

You have to listen to something other then your own opinion, to which you're not equipped.

 

It's a good thing you bothered making a point I could "listen too", then. Oh, wait, you didn't bother, because you know you have none that you can defend in any kind of rational way. So attack the man, not his statements or opinions. Which is fine, as matter of fact, it's exactly what I expected. As I already said, explain everything whilst explaining nothing, and demand we all accept that as fact.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Y2HH

[vandy125]

It's a good thing you bothered making a point I could "listen too", then. Oh, wait, you didn't bother, because you know you have none that you can defend in any kind of rational way. So attack the man, not his statements or opinions. Which is fine, as matter of fact, it's exactly what I expected. As I already said, explain everything whilst explaining nothing, and demand we all accept that as fact.

 

IMO, it can all be a path that starts out with the basic question, "is/are there a god(s) or not?" At that point, you need to define what the word "god" actually means. My thoughts are that we often observe and interact with creatures or beings that cannot observe us or what we are doing. We can influence them without them understanding what is going on. Do we believe that we have the ability to do this, but that there is not another being(s) that is able to do the same to us? IMO, that is an arrogant belief to have, but we've already hit a point where we start getting into philosophical discussions.

 

That is why I call it a path. If you have the view that there is something with the ability to interact with us that we are unable to observe, then you start asking questions about whether or not that being or being(s) would try to interact with us in a way that we actually can understand that they are there, and if they do so, what would it look like? Would it show up in the form of "miracles" that challenge our understanding of how we can observe things working, but are simply another form of the way that everything truly is around us that we do not yet comprehend? Would it show up in the form of a revelation such as "thus saith thus being"? How would it look? Then you start looking to see what you can find and rationally observe. What fits in, what does not fit in, etc.

 

Of course, it is your own choice whether or not you decide to follow such a path, but I wish more people took the time to study a bit of philosophy to take a look at their own beliefs. IMO, the search for and attempt to understand what "truth" is along with our baseline assumptions that we carry with us into our views of "truth" is fascinating.

[Y2HH]

IMO, it can all be a path that starts out with the basic question, "is/are there a god(s) or not?" At that point, you need to define what the word "god" actually means. My thoughts are that we often observe and interact with creatures or beings that cannot observe us or what we are doing. We can influence them without them understanding what is going on. Do we believe that we have the ability to do this, but that there is not another being(s) that is able to do the same to us? IMO, that is an arrogant belief to have, but we've already hit a point where we start getting into philosophical discussions.

 

That is why I call it a path. If you have the view that there is something with the ability to interact with us that we are unable to observe, then you start asking questions about whether or not that being or being(s) would try to interact with us in a way that we actually can understand that they are there, and if they do so, what would it look like? Would it show up in the form of "miracles" that challenge our understanding of how we can observe things working, but are simply another form of the way that everything truly is around us that we do not yet comprehend? Would it show up in the form of a revelation such as "thus saith thus being"? How would it look? Then you start looking to see what you can find and rationally observe. What fits in, what does not fit in, etc.

 

Of course, it is your own choice whether or not you decide to follow such a path, but I wish more people took the time to study a bit of philosophy to take a look at their own beliefs. IMO, the search for and attempt to understand what "truth" is along with our baseline assumptions that we carry with us into our views of "truth" is fascinating.

 

I have no issues with this line of thought, it's not only more realistic, but it's something I can wrap my mind around. What I do not like is written religion that have arbitrarily changing rules over the years, which require constant heaping praise for God for all that is good, whatever/whoever that God may be, while NEVER blaming that same God for anything bad. If you want to liken God to that like which humans are to a colony of ants, that's fine...but I also don't demand the ants praise me for all that is good in their lives, while dismissing my negative actions as 'well, he has a plan, accept that' when I decide to pour lighter fluid on their colony and burn it to the ground...just because. If/when I decide to kill ants because they're 'in the way', I'd not only expect them to question me for it, I'd expect some of them to hate me, too. Of course, the ones that continue to love me regardless of my actions may continue to do so...since I really don't care, either way. And I doubt God, if one exists in that same manner, cares either.

[vandy125]

I have no issues with this line of thought, it's not only more realistic, but it's something I can wrap my mind around. What I do not like is written religion that have arbitrarily changing rules over the years, which require constant heaping praise for God for all that is good, whatever/whoever that God may be, while NEVER blaming that same God for anything bad. If you want to liken God to that like which humans are to a colony of ants, that's fine...but I also don't demand the ants praise me for all that is good in their lives, while dismissing my negative actions as 'well, he has a plan, accept that' when I decide to pour lighter fluid on their colony and burn it to the ground...just because. If/when I decide to kill ants because they're 'in the way', I'd not only expect them to question me for it, I'd expect some of them to hate me, too. Of course, the ones that continue to love me regardless of my actions may continue to do so...since I really don't care, either way. And I doubt God, if one exists in that same manner, cares either.

 

I could explain that view and its consistency to you if you'd like, but that is much farther down the path (and quite a different one) than the one that you are on in your beliefs from what I can see. Of course it is non-sensical to you. If you view God as a human does a colony of ants, then matter of factly, it doesn't matter at all what we do. It is all meaningless. So, there would be no point to giving praise for anything. What point would there actually be in anything we do if God is indeed like that?

 

If there is no God, we are at the same point in my opinion. We can live for our family or for generations on down the line or for ourselves, but none of it is going to last. You and them will eventually be forgotten just like me and my family and everyone else's. We can live a "moral" life (whatever we define that as), make "good" decisions (again whatever we define that as), etc, but we all die. We are just an asteroid strike (nuclear war, etc) away from the collapse of everything. So, I would ask, what is the point?

 

This question is actually explored really well by many people who attempt to make a point of life (with God, without God, with many gods, etc). To some, there is no point to existence.

 

If you are fine with where you are at in these questions, then that is up to you. However, you could take a look in a different direction to see why people are where they are instead of lumping them in with the ants under a cynical being's magnifying glass. Sure, some have just followed what is around them and are where they are without giving it any thought (I pity them when someone comes along with tough, or just deeper, questions), but there are many who have thought philosophically about another being who they do give praise to that being regardless of what happens in their lives here. I'd rather try to understand why or how that happened before throwing someone in a category and saying "I dislike all of them".

 

Also, to your point about arbitrarily changing rules, I would again hope that you are not lumping everyone into the same boat as again there are many viewpoints where the rules do not change. An example of one such rule that you even cited for a group is to praise God no matter what happens while here.

[Y2HH]

I could explain that view and its consistency to you if you'd like, but that is much farther down the path (and quite a different one) than the one that you are on in your beliefs from what I can see. Of course it is non-sensical to you. If you view God as a human does a colony of ants, then matter of factly, it doesn't matter at all what we do. It is all meaningless. So, there would be no point to giving praise for anything. What point would there actually be in anything we do if God is indeed like that?

 

If there is no God, we are at the same point in my opinion. We can live for our family or for generations on down the line or for ourselves, but none of it is going to last. You and them will eventually be forgotten just like me and my family and everyone else's. We can live a "moral" life (whatever we define that as), make "good" decisions (again whatever we define that as), etc, but we all die.[/s] We are just an asteroid strike (nuclear war, etc) away from the collapse of everything. So, I would ask, what is the point?

 

This question is actually explored really well by many people who attempt to make a point of life (with God, without God, with many gods, etc). To some, there is no point to existence.

 

If you are fine with where you are at in these questions, then that is up to you. However, you could take a look in a different direction to see why people are where they are instead of lumping them in with the ants under a cynical being's magnifying glass. Sure, some have just followed what is around them and are where they are without giving it any thought (I pity them when someone comes along with tough, or just deeper, questions), but there are many who have thought philosophically about another being who they do give praise to that being regardless of what happens in their lives here. I'd rather try to understand why or how that happened before throwing someone in a category and saying "I dislike all of them".

 

Also, to your point about arbitrarily changing rules, I would again hope that you are not lumping everyone into the same boat as again there are many viewpoints where the rules do not change. An example of one such rule that you even cited for a group is to praise God no matter what happens while here.

 

That IS the point. There is a point to existence, and it's everything you went over...to live while you have the opportunity to do so, whether you want to spend that time having a family, raising children, reading, teaching, being an artist, whatever, it doesn't matter...that in and of itself, is the point. So long as it's not destructive. Though you could argue that point to a fair degree, too.

 

I don't have a problem with all religious people, or all religions, I only have a problem with some of them, and some aspects of them. I have a problem that religion, in general, is abused, used, and excused, especially by those that follow it. More people have died in the name of God than for any other reason. Brutal wars are STILL being waged after 2000 years in areas of this world for one reason and one reason alone: religion. That's the people and the part of religion I dislike. I dislike it's inherent hypocrisy, in that nobody can follow the rules set fourth by these controlling, man made religions, and worse, MOST don't even try...hence my point of taking their religion al-la-carte, because it's convenient. Sure, I'm Catholic, but I break commandments with regularity, because it'd be impossible to not. Or the age old, praise God for all that is good, but blame him for nothing that is bad...and why? Because he "has a plan", so don't dare question him. Some feel I should be thankful because I wasn't born into extreme poverty and starvation, like many in the world currently are, so what of them? Should they thank God that they were? Should I thank that same God that it was them and not me? Oh, wait...I know...he "has a plan" for them, right? Wrong. Because if that's the case, and part of that plan constitues extreme suffering, and a slow miserable existence and an even slower more miserable death, then like I said above, that God represents nothing I could love, or even want to understand. And if he doesn't want to explain why, then I feel I have every right to question him, his motives, and his actions...and more, outright blame him for them. Or, being more realistic, I can simply say that God had nothing to do with it...because if God exists, he doesn't care...and if he did care, there is no rational excuse for the suffering he allows across all walks of life...other than the fact he's a dick.

 

I can't get behind any God that allows the continued suffering of the innocent that I see every day in this world...I'm not equipped to understand why, because if he exists, he didn't equip me to do so.

 

What I can do, however, is question exactly what I see...and I can question him in the face of those that tell me to have faith.

 

I'm the sheep that got lost...because God opened the gate when he gave me free will to question everything...including him.

[StrangeSox]

And so the endless circle of life comes to an end. Meaningless and grim. Why did they live? And why did they die? No reason.

[Jake]

Just another day in the 'Buster

[vandy125]

That IS the point. There is a point to existence, and it's everything you went over...to live while you have the opportunity to do so, whether you want to spend that time having a family, raising children, reading, teaching, being an artist, whatever, it doesn't matter...that in and of itself, is the point. So long as it's not destructive. Though you could argue that point to a fair degree, too.

 

I don't have a problem with all religious people, or all religions, I only have a problem with some of them, and some aspects of them. I have a problem that religion, in general, is abused, used, and excused, especially by those that follow it. More people have died in the name of God than for any other reason. Brutal wars are STILL being waged after 2000 years in areas of this world for one reason and one reason alone: religion. That's the people and the part of religion I dislike. I dislike it's inherent hypocrisy, in that nobody can follow the rules set fourth by these controlling, man made religions, and worse, MOST don't even try...hence my point of taking their religion al-la-carte, because it's convenient. Sure, I'm Catholic, but I break commandments with regularity, because it'd be impossible to not. Or the age old, praise God for all that is good, but blame him for nothing that is bad...and why? Because he "has a plan", so don't dare question him. Some feel I should be thankful because I wasn't born into extreme poverty and starvation, like many in the world currently are, so what of them? Should they thank God that they were? Should I thank that same God that it was them and not me? Oh, wait...I know...he "has a plan" for them, right? Wrong. Because if that's the case, and part of that plan constitues extreme suffering, and a slow miserable existence and an even slower more miserable death, then like I said above, that God represents nothing I could love, or even want to understand. And if he doesn't want to explain why, then I feel I have every right to question him, his motives, and his actions...and more, outright blame him for them. Or, being more realistic, I can simply say that God had nothing to do with it...because if God exists, he doesn't care...and if he did care, there is no rational excuse for the suffering he allows across all walks of life...other than the fact he's a dick.

 

I can't get behind any God that allows the continued suffering of the innocent that I see every day in this world...I'm not equipped to understand why, because if he exists, he didn't equip me to do so.

 

What I can do, however, is question exactly what I see...and I can question him in the face of those that tell me to have faith.

 

I'm the sheep that got lost...because God opened the gate when he gave me free will to question everything...including him.

 

I do get your point. I really do. You have to realize that it is the short-sighted view of history and time however. If this is all that there is, if there is nothing more, then time is short and it can be incredibly brutal. It can be painful, and it can be very unjust. If this is all that there is and there is a God ruling over it, how could anyone want anything to do with that being? That would be ridiculous.

 

However, if there is an immortal soul, some piece that lives longer than this, then what is 70, 80, or 90 years in the view of eternal? It is nothing, it is but a short time. There is a long time to right the wrongs and injustices of what is happening now if the soul is indeed eternal. Buddhism talks about getting off this wheel of life. Christianity and Islam talk about life after death. Most of the religions that I have studied talk about more than just this life. So, IMO, it is short-sighted to think that all of the terrible and all of the wrongs can be waved away with a magic wand in this life. There is so much more time that will pass. Of course, especially in American culture, we want everything right now. We want things fixed right now, we don't care how it happens, but we want it right now. We have lost our ability to try and see further, to go through short-term pain for long-term gain because all we see is the here and now.

 

And I really do not want to get into the debate between whether religion or atheism has killed more people throughout time. We can talk about Stalin and his 10-20 million, Hitler and his 20 million, Mao Zedong and his 10's of millions of Chinese, the Crusades and its half a million. History is full of people killing people. The reason that it happens is because they were human. They wanted power and control, and they were willing to do whatever it took to get that regardless of religion. They used whatever excuse possible to get them more power. To lay it all at the doorstep of religion is disingenuous. Religion, or lack of it, does not cause you to kill people. People will find ways to do that regardless of what weapon they wield.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

wow, this makes me want to take a class in philosophy. seriously, I have taken religion classes in high school and college but the way you explain things is very interesting and led me to see things from a different perspective

 

I do get your point. I really do. You have to realize that it is the short-sighted view of history and time however. If this is all that there is, if there is nothing more, then time is short and it can be incredibly brutal. It can be painful, and it can be very unjust. If this is all that there is and there is a God ruling over it, how could anyone want anything to do with that being? That would be ridiculous.

 

However, if there is an immortal soul, some piece that lives longer than this, then what is 70, 80, or 90 years in the view of eternal? It is nothing, it is but a short time. There is a long time to right the wrongs and injustices of what is happening now if the soul is indeed eternal. Buddhism talks about getting off this wheel of life. Christianity and Islam talk about life after death. Most of the religions that I have studied talk about more than just this life. So, IMO, it is short-sighted to think that all of the terrible and all of the wrongs can be waved away with a magic wand in this life. There is so much more time that will pass. Of course, especially in American culture, we want everything right now. We want things fixed right now, we don't care how it happens, but we want it right now. We have lost our ability to try and see further, to go through short-term pain for long-term gain because all we see is the here and now.

 

And I really do not want to get into the debate between whether religion or atheism has killed more people throughout time. We can talk about Stalin and his 10-20 million, Hitler and his 20 million, Mao Zedong and his 10's of millions of Chinese, the Crusades and its half a million. History is full of people killing people. The reason that it happens is because they were human. They wanted power and control, and they were willing to do whatever it took to get that regardless of religion. They used whatever excuse possible to get them more power. To lay it all at the doorstep of religion is disingenuous. Religion, or lack of it, does not cause you to kill people. People will find ways to do that regardless of what weapon they wield.

 

[Texsox]

More people have died in the name of God than for any other reason. Brutal wars are STILL being waged after 2000 years in areas of this world for one reason and one reason alone: religion.

 

Really? WW1? WW2? Was it in the name of religion that atomic bombs were dropped?

 

I believe more people have died from greed than religion. Whether a desire for land (Mexican-American War), profits from slavery (Civil War), Oil (take your pick of the past 50 years. Yes, there have been religious wars, but if you study all of the circumstances, greed is usually at the root. They may wrap it in a religious tapestry, but remove it and you see greed.

[Y2HH]

Really? WW1? WW2? Was it in the name of religion that atomic bombs were dropped?

 

I believe more people have died from greed than religion. Whether a desire for land (Mexican-American War), profits from slavery (Civil War), Oil (take your pick of the past 50 years. Yes, there have been religious wars, but if you study all of the circumstances, greed is usually at the root. They may wrap it in a religious tapestry, but remove it and you see greed.

 

That's fine, too...but religion is still involved, whether driven by greed or not.

[witesoxfan]

That's fine, too...but religion is still involved, whether driven by greed or not.

 

I'm sure getting sweet, sweet smokin' neighbor ass is too, but that's neither here nor there.

[mr_genius]

i'm glad this thread is still going