The Wussification of America

[DukeNukeEm]

Plenty of people in s***ty situations are hard-working and responsible people. Plenty of people in great situations work no harder than them. I think understanding why is important and that blaming it on lazy poors is just a reflexive defense of privileges you've been given in life.

At what point do poor people be put at fault for being poor in your eyes? What do they have to do? Can it ever be their fault?

 

(I know I'm parroting shack, but you are dodging this question)

[Balta1701]

Honestly, you and Balta are the ones that are always assigning blame to some larger cause, rather than actually expecting people to show some kind of responsibility on their own.

If we had a safety net that was actually somewhat adequate, if the weak safety net of 20 years ago hadn't been being slowly dismantled since then...then you might have a point. But with as weak as our safety net actually is, when people start saying how wasteful it is, or how it makes people lazy and should be cut further, then yes, I'm always going to be on the side of pointing out how we haven't addressed the larger issues.

 

When I weight things like "people having to choose between housing costs and health care costs" versus "people need to be coddled less by their parents", I find the former to be a much more serious, systemic problem, and I find that people who focus on the latter do so because they are finding excuses not to deal with the real societal issue that would take time and money and effort to fix. They're, to borrow a term..."Wussing out" from attacking the real problem and focusing on the one that takes no effort or sacrifice from them to correct.

[StrangeSox]

I don't view poverty as some sort of moral failing. If you want to go to an individual, case-by-case level, sure, you can probably find examples. But the problem of poverty as a whole? Never.

 

edit: here's an interview I've found that gets into the difference in the framing of poverty being individualistic or systematic.

http://newsframes.wordpress.com/2012/12/06...ty-framing-jrf/

Edited January 21, 2013 by StrangeSox

[iamshack]

Plenty of people in s***ty situations are hard-working and responsible people. Plenty of people in great situations work no harder than them. I think understanding why is important and that blaming it on lazy poors is just a reflexive defense of privileges you've been given in life.

I love how you guys have grabbed this "lazy poors" thing the last few weeks and run with it. I don't think anyone ever used that phrase, I know I certainly did not.

 

There is a distinguishable difference between some of the attitudes in here, such as that of the OP and those who agree with him, and those of us who aren't crying out that the sky is falling, but do see a lack of personal responsibility in today's society. Sometimes, things get comfortable, and people get a sense of entitlement. I am certain there are times when I felt I was entitled for something I didn't work for. Then someone pointed this out to me and took the thing I felt entitled to away. It was then that I had to make a decision to get off my ass and work hard to get what I wanted, or work at a convenience store my entire life and always be barely scraping by.

 

Now your response will inevitably be "there are plenty of people out there who would love to work at a convenience store all their lives so they can barely get by."

 

And what that does is obfuscate the point some are trying to make here. There are always those that are going to have it pretty s***ty in life...that is just the way of the world. Ceaselessly pointing that out instead of focusing on actual addressable problems and issues would seem to be, at worst, at least as good a course to take as that which you and Balta seem to constantly advocate.

[DukeNukeEm]

I love how you guys have grabbed this "lazy poors" thing the last few weeks and run with it. I don't think anyone ever used that phrase, I know I certainly did not.

 

I do.

 

[iamshack]

I don't view poverty as some sort of moral failing. If you want to go to an individual, case-by-case level, sure, you can probably find examples. But the problem of poverty as a whole? Never.

 

edit: here's an interview I've found that gets into the difference in the framing of poverty being individualistic or systematic.

http://newsframes.wordpress.com/2012/12/06...ty-framing-jrf/

I couldn't agree with you more. I am not so naive to believe that all those below the poverty line just happen to be all the people that suck the most at life. And I also understand the concepts of generational poverty, and how drug and alcohol addiction significantly lower your ability to escape poverty. I understand that access to quality nutrition and education are limited. I understand all that.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I love how you guys have grabbed this "lazy poors" thing the last few weeks and run with it. I don't think anyone ever used that phrase, I know I certainly did not.

 

If poverty really is the result of individual moral failings, then that's an accurate-but-critical portrayal of what's been said repeatedly in this thread. If you're going to attribute poverty to a lack of personal responsibility, you're just saying "lazy poors" in nicer language. At least, that's my view of things.

 

There is a distinguishable difference between some of the attitudes in here, such as that of the OP and those who agree with him, and those of us who aren't crying out that the sky is falling, but do see a lack of personal responsibility in today's society. Sometimes, things get comfortable, and people get a sense of entitlement. I am certain there are times when I felt I was entitled for something I didn't work for. Then someone pointed this out to me and took the thing I felt entitled to away. It was then that I had to make a decision to get off my ass and work hard to get what I wanted, or work at a convenience store my entire life and always be barely scraping by.

 

Now your response will inevitably be "there are plenty of people out there who would love to work at a convenience store all their lives so they can barely get by."

 

I don't know what you're saying here.

 

And what that does is obfuscate the point some are trying to make here. There are always those that are going to have it pretty s***ty in life...that is just the way of the world. Ceaselessly pointing that out instead of focusing on actual addressable problems and issues would seem to be, at worst, at least as good a course to take as that which you and Balta seem to constantly advocate.

 

Ceaselessly ignoring the structural causes of poverty and talking only about "personal responsibility" means you're not focusing on the actual problems that need to be addressed. Especially when plenty of poor people are hard-working and responsible.

Edited January 21, 2013 by StrangeSox

[iamshack]

If poverty really is the result of individual moral failings, then that's an accurate-but-critical portrayal of what's been said repeatedly in this thread. If you're going to attribute poverty to a lack of personal responsibility, you're just saying "lazy poors" in nicer language. At least, that's my view of things.

 

 

 

I don't know what you're saying here.

 

 

 

Ceaselessly ignoring the structural causes of poverty and talking only about "personal responsibility" means you're not focusing on the actual problems that need to be addressed. Especially when plenty of poor people are hard-working and responsible.

We haven't had a thread on poverty, SS. We've had a thread on the life expectancy of Americans and the "wussification" of America. Neither of those, in my opinion, are subjects which require a discussion of the structural causes of poverty.

[Y2HH]

If poverty really is the result of individual moral failings, then that's an accurate-but-critical portrayal of what's been said repeatedly in this thread. If you're going to attribute poverty to a lack of personal responsibility, you're just saying "lazy poors" in nicer language. At least, that's my view of things.

 

 

 

I don't know what you're saying here.

 

 

 

Ceaselessly ignoring the structural causes of poverty and talking only about "personal responsibility" means you're not focusing on the actual problems that need to be addressed. Especially when plenty of poor people are hard-working and responsible.

 

That's the thing...we aren't attributing ALL poverty to lack of personal responsibility. We are ONLY talking about that which is caused by lack of personal responsibility in today's society. I, at least, am talking about a micro level component here, and you are expanding it to a very macro level. Nothing ever gets solved by trying to take a macro level look at something...not everyone has the same opportunities, not everyone has the same station in life. This post went from my discussing job opportunities with people and trying to enter that market with a useful skillset to somehow becoming something of a discussion of poverty...I wasn't discussing poverty in the first place. I was merely discussing job opportunities...and the fact that they exist IF you do something the world needs.

[iamshack]

If poverty really is the result of individual moral failings, then that's an accurate-but-critical portrayal of what's been said repeatedly in this thread. If you're going to attribute poverty to a lack of personal responsibility, you're just saying "lazy poors" in nicer language. At least, that's my view of things.

 

 

 

I don't know what you're saying here.

 

And honestly, the intellectual elitism is just dripping off your fingers right now...for some of you folks that are always out to save those less-fortunate than you...well, I will just leave it at this: it's pretty f***ing ironic.

[Balta1701]

That's the thing...we aren't attributing ALL poverty to lack of personal responsibility. We are ONLY talking about that which is caused by lack of personal responsibility in today's society. I, at least, am talking about a micro level component here, and you are expanding it to a very macro level. Nothing ever gets solved by trying to take a macro level look at something...not everyone has the same opportunities, not everyone has the same station in life. This post went from my discussing job opportunities with people and trying to enter that market with a useful skillset to somehow becoming something of a discussion of poverty...I wasn't discussing poverty in the first place. I was merely discussing job opportunities...and the fact that they exist IF you do something the world needs.

1. What gets solved by the lecture about how people need to buck up and take more responsibility?

 

2. It's worth pointing out this graph...of job openings versus applicants, to note that thanks to the destruction of the economy, we still have more than 2x as many applicants per job as there was before the implosion.

 

Job opportunities do exist...but you can have a ton of great skills, marketable ones, and still have extreme difficulty in this economy.

[Y2HH]

1. What gets solved by the lecture about how people need to buck up and take more responsibility?

 

2. It's worth pointing out this graph...of job openings versus applicants, to note that thanks to the destruction of the economy, we still have more than 2x as many applicants per job as there was before the implosion.

 

Job opportunities do exist...but you can have a ton of great skills, marketable ones, and still have extreme difficulty in this economy.

 

And if you look out your window right now, the sky is blue.

[StrangeSox]

We haven't had a thread on poverty, SS. We've had a thread on the life expectancy of Americans and the "wussification" of America. Neither of those, in my opinion, are subjects which require a discussion of the structural causes of poverty.

 

I view the framing of the eating/exercise habits discussion in a similar manner, though I do believe personal agency is more important there. But if we're going to look at issues in our society that are that broad, I'm going to reject the 'direct causation'/"personal responsibility/failings" angle in favor of a systematic approach. You're right that I can sometimes derail s*** with hobby-horses, though.

[iamshack]

1. What gets solved by the lecture about how people need to buck up and take more responsibility?

 

2. It's worth pointing out this graph...of job openings versus applicants, to note that thanks to the destruction of the economy, we still have more than 2x as many applicants per job as there was before the implosion.

 

Job opportunities do exist...but you can have a ton of great skills, marketable ones, and still have extreme difficulty in this economy.

Perhaps people will buck up and take responsibility?

 

Maybe someone will stop sitting on their ass trying to get their dream job and instead take the job that is open until they actually have a shot at their dream job?

[StrangeSox]

And honestly, the intellectual elitism is just dripping off your fingers right now...for some of you folks that are always out to save those less-fortunate than you...well, I will just leave it at this: it's pretty f***ing ironic.

 

One of the big pitfalls with regular American liberalism is falling into a high-brow paternalism.

[StrangeSox]

Perhaps people will buck up and take responsibility?

 

Maybe someone will stop sitting on their ass trying to get their dream job and instead take the job that is open until they actually have a shot at their dream job?

Is this a situation that actually represents a meaningful number of people?

[Y2HH]

Is this a situation that actually represents a meaningful number of people?

 

I think it does.

[StrangeSox]

I am skeptical that there's a meaningful number of people sitting on their asses trying to get their "dream job" and don't take any other work.

[DukeNukeEm]

Is this a situation that actually represents a meaningful number of people?

It describes a vast amount of the mid-early 20's unemployed.

[StrangeSox]

Cite/source?

[iamshack]

One of the big pitfalls with regular American liberalism is falling into a high-brow paternalism.

Yeah, it was more the bs comment "I don't know what you are saying here."

 

 

[Y2HH]

I am skeptical that there's a meaningful number of people sitting on their asses trying to get their "dream job" and don't take any other work.

 

Don't be.

 

I bet every last person here knows a 20 something that's not working BECAUSE they can't find the job THEY WANT. They can find jobs...just not the exact job or pay they're looking for...so they CHOOSE to not work instead.

 

I'm one person and I can produce 5 people I know doing this right now.

 

I'd bet you could name a few yourself...and so can everyone else here.

 

So please, let's not pretend otherwise.

[Balta1701]

Don't be.

 

I bet every last person here knows a 20 something that's not working BECAUSE they can't find the job THEY WANT. They can find jobs...just not the exact job or pay they're looking for...so they CHOOSE to not work instead.

 

I'm one person and I can produce 5 people I know doing this right now.

 

I'd bet you could name a few yourself...and so can everyone else here.

 

So please, let's not pretend otherwise.

And do you know how many 20somethings I can name who are working their asses off in school or in positions where they are way underpaid because that's all that they could get?

[Y2HH]

Cite/source?

 

Because people who can find jobs they don't want like to admit it...

 

This can't be cited or sourced because if they admitted it, they'd lose their unemployment benefits.

[Y2HH]

And do you know how many 20somethings I can name who are working their asses off in school or in positions where they are way underpaid because that's all that they could get?

 

I bet a few...but that wasn't the question now was it?