The Wussification of America

[Reddy]

If you agree with all of this, why are you happy with allowing the government to have more control over anything? If the normal people currently in our government are capable of these atrocities then you should push for government de-regulation so they cannot do this type of thing.

 

i think the government does plenty of shady crap, believe me, but I also don't trust people at a local level. Hell that congressman in Kansas who prayed for the President's death - who prayed that his wife would be widowed and his kids would be fatherless - would have even MORE power. That's not acceptable either.

 

but i also don't think the world is black and white. I think there are some things the government should have their hands in, and some things they shouldn't. guns are certainly one of those things the government should be involved in. When it comes to the welfare of the majority of the people (guns, civil rights, etc), I think the government has a responsibility to do what it can to that end. And yes, you're going to say 'well what constitutes the welfare of the majority of people' and to that I'd say... that's why I vote Democrat.

 

[Jake]

I get that people who are part of the majority do not want to believe that it was just a regular guy who would become the one to flip the switch for the gas chambers, but that is the truth.

 

Even Schindler, who was one of the best towards the Jews, only did it for money to start. He was using Jews from forced labor. It was only after he saw his "workers being murdered" that he got upset because he was losing a valuable commodity.

 

Most humans accept speciesism. Whether its okay to kill a fly, a mouse, a chicken, whatever. Most people have a point where they think "its okay to kill that" or "its okay to test on that" or "its okay to work it to death." In Nazi Germany it became acceptable that Jews were less than Human. So normal human rights did not apply.

 

They did not think they were doing anything wrong. If Germany would have won, would all of those poor unfortunate Germans have freed the Jews? Would they have stopped killing Jews?

 

No. They wanted the Jews eradicated. It wasnt just Hitler or a handful of people.

 

Germany wasn't the only place that was anti-Semitic.

 

Opinion polls, even after the discovery of concentration camps in post-war Germany, in the USA people were rather strongly against allowing Jews to immigrate into the USA, refugees or otherwise. During the war, before the full breadth of extermination came to light, foreign Jewish immigrants were indisputably an unwelcome proposition.

 

Would Americans have been pro-Holocaust? No, but unfortunately there was a pervasive atmosphere worldwide that allowed this sort of thing to be ignored. While I wouldn't want to say that bad government and genocide can't happen again in the Western world, it seems far less likely since it happened on such a large, public scale.

[ptatc]

i think the government does plenty of shady crap, believe me, but I also don't trust people at a local level. Hell that congressman in Kansas who prayed for the President's death - who prayed that his wife would be widowed and his kids would be fatherless - would have even MORE power. That's not acceptable either.

 

but i also don't think the world is black and white. I think there are some things the government should have their hands in, and some things they shouldn't. guns are certainly one of those things the government should be involved in. When it comes to the welfare of the majority of the people (guns, civil rights, etc), I think the government has a responsibility to do what it can to that end. And yes, you're going to say 'well what constitutes the welfare of the majority of people' and to that I'd say... that's why I vote Democrat.

I agree with your comments in theory. But the "where does it stop" that scares me. If we can guarantee what the politician can change and what they can't it would be different. You have to have the belief that they will do the right thing. However, as stated earlier if you think that anyone can commit the atrocities like Germany did, this should really give you pause that they will do the right thing.

Edited January 20, 2013 by ptatc

[Reddy]

I agree with your comments in theory. But the "where does it stop" that scares me. If we can guarantee what the politician can change and what they can't it would be different.

unfortunately even if we were to make limits like that, they - just like the 2nd amendment - would eventually become obsolete. our government and the documents used to rule NEED to be malleable because as circumstance change and as the world changes, the law needs to change with it.

 

we're at a point in history where one such law needs changing. that's the way it works.

[Reddy]

I agree with your comments in theory. But the "where does it stop" that scares me. If we can guarantee what the politician can change and what they can't it would be different. You have to have the belief that they will do the right thing. However, as stated earlier if you think that anyone can commit the atrocities like Germany did, this should really give you pause that they will do the right thing.

 

I don't think simply anyone can do what Hitler did, but I DO believe that when put into a situation like those grunts were, normal, every day, good people are capable of horrible things.

 

you and I are capable of horrible things - we just don't believe it because we've never been in that circumstance where it's do ______ or you die. More than that, do ______ or we murder your family in front of you THEN you die.

 

what choice did those enlisted german soldiers HAVE if they signed up before the war? Have you seen A Few Good Men? Soldiers follow orders, end of story.

[ptatc]

unfortunately even if we were to make limits like that, they - just like the 2nd amendment - would eventually become obsolete. our government and the documents used to rule NEED to be malleable because as circumstance change and as the world changes, the law needs to change with it.

 

we're at a point in history where one such law needs changing. that's the way it works.

This is a difference of opinion but I just think that most of it should be at the more local level and not someone in Washington who hasn't even been to the areas making the decision. People who know the situation should have more say.

 

This is all separate from the previous discussion of how "normal" people can do the things that the Nazi's did. If you read the books on the Nazi's and the Occult it gives you even more insight as to why they did many of the things they did. The power structure was run by people who weren't normal and they handpicked the deathsquad members (as I'm sure people like Hussein in Iraqi did) who committed most of the atrocities. Normal people can be racist, bullies, mean and many other things. They cannot stand there a willingly murder millions.

[Soxbadger]

For this part, I guess we disagree on the definition of normal. This does happen throughout history. What Stalin did to his own people is nothing compared to what Hitler did to the Jews. However, anyone who can do this to people, even the bully in the school who beats on other kids for fun, I do not consider normal.

 

Then we disagree on normal. I consider the normal human capable of bullying, capable of being mean, capable of creating cliques, capable of creating hypocritical rules for their own favor. I think the normal human is capable of committing crimes, capable of scams, capable of lying.

 

I think that anyone who claims that they are not capable of that would be abnormal or a liar.

 

Historically speaking, war is the natural state of humans. Peace is a new phenomenon. Less than 500 years ago it would have been extremely acceptable to kill someone for being a different religion, race etc.

 

It would be nice to believe that this relatively peaceful time is "normal" but based on the normal use of that term, it just cant be. War is more normal.

 

Again I'm not saying that none of the German agreed with him. He happened to catch a country that was ripe for this type of thing. They were in extreme poverty caused by other countries putting sanctions on them and making them pay for the previous war they had just lost. The entire country blamed the other countries around them for their problems. So with his friends and backing along with his extraordinary oratory skills (I hope I spelled that right) Germany was in a unique position for someone like him to come along.

 

This is the classic argument, everything is always unique. You are right, there will never be another time that is exactly 1920's Germany. Never again. So I guess we shouldnt really think about it critically, because its a fact, it will never ever happen again.

 

The problem is, that if you look at it in the broader picture "minority being massacred by majority" and "minority being used as scapegoat for ills of majority" there are innumerable examples of it in history, basically every single country has experienced.

 

So I guess I dont think its very unique.

 

Therein lies the key. Forced labor, slavery all of that while horrible does not come near to what Hitler and some of the SS death squad who were mostly deposed aristocracy) did. These were a select few who needed to blame someone for theie problems. Once Hitler came along with his "philosophy" the selceted group jumped on it.

 

And the people followed. The facts are not in dispute, except for German/Nazi apologists.

 

When the Nazi's were retreating, did the regular German's free the concentration camps? Did they help the Jews? Did they even tell the allies that a bunch of people were being murdered?

 

The answer is no.

 

When the Nazis fled concentration camps, they either killed everyone or they locked them in and left them to die.

 

Lets call a spade a spade. They were complicit. This is not some "every German was forced to kill millions of people by gunpoint" they gladly joined in, because they were all going to become rich and powerful. Thats human nature, greed.

 

If you agree with all of this, why are you happy with allowing the government to have more control over anything? If the normal people currently in our government are capable of these atrocities then you should push for government de-regulation so they cannot do this type of thing.

 

If I thought that humans were good, I would agree that there should be no govt.

 

But unfortunately I think like Hobbes that life without govt would cruel and short. I agree with Locke that we have to give up some rights, and I agree with John Stuart Mill that the rights we give up should be based on utility (if I dont harm you, you dont harm me.)

 

I just dont think that guns being legal or illegal has any relevance to the rise of Hitler. If anything, the type of fervent support behind it, is the exact emotion that a Hitler plays upon.

 

Ive read the books, I did the work. This was my focus in college. We are soon coming upon the days when people will start to agree with you, that it was just a few bad people, when almost anyone that actually was in Germany or was in WWII would say the exact opposite.

 

Maybe one day you will get a chance to actually know or meet someone who lived in Nazi Germany and escaped. Unfortunately the ones I knew are dead now, but it wasnt just a few "rich aristocrats". It was the German people. The regular every day Joe, was the backbone of the Nazi party. The Hitler youth, the regular people.

[Quin]

This thread no longer belongs to Soxtalk, it belongs to Soxbadger.

[ptatc]

I don't think simply anyone can do what Hitler did, but I DO believe that when put into a situation like those grunts were, normal, every day, good people are capable of horrible things.

 

you and I are capable of horrible things - we just don't believe it because we've never been in that circumstance where it's do ______ or you die. More than that, do ______ or we murder your family in front of you THEN you die.

 

what choice did those enlisted german soldiers HAVE if they signed up before the war? Have you seen A Few Good Men? Soldiers follow orders, end of story.

Regular soldiers did not commit the genocide. I agree regular soldiers can and will do things that in everyday society they wouldn't do. However, a regular soldiers does not plan for years, make massive plans to move millions of people and murder millions. That is a whole different scale than what you are talking about. The enlisted soldiers were out fighting the battles. They were not planning or executing this the slaughter of millions. Again, I'm sure there were some but they were handpicked not your everyday enlisted soldier.

[ptatc]

Then we disagree on normal. I consider the normal human capable of bullying, capable of being mean, capable of creating cliques, capable of creating hypocritical rules for their own favor. I think the normal human is capable of committing crimes, capable of scams, capable of lying.

 

I think that anyone who claims that they are not capable of that would be abnormal or a liar.

 

Historically speaking, war is the natural state of humans. Peace is a new phenomenon. Less than 500 years ago it would have been extremely acceptable to kill someone for being a different religion, race etc.

 

It would be nice to believe that this relatively peaceful time is "normal" but based on the normal use of that term, it just cant be. War is more normal.

 

 

 

This is the classic argument, everything is always unique. You are right, there will never be another time that is exactly 1920's Germany. Never again. So I guess we shouldnt really think about it critically, because its a fact, it will never ever happen again.

 

The problem is, that if you look at it in the broader picture "minority being massacred by majority" and "minority being used as scapegoat for ills of majority" there are innumerable examples of it in history, basically every single country has experienced.

 

So I guess I dont think its very unique.

 

 

 

And the people followed. The facts are not in dispute, except for German/Nazi apologists.

 

When the Nazi's were retreating, did the regular German's free the concentration camps? Did they help the Jews? Did they even tell the allies that a bunch of people were being murdered?

 

The answer is no.

 

When the Nazis fled concentration camps, they either killed everyone or they locked them in and left them to die.

 

Lets call a spade a spade. They were complicit. This is not some "every German was forced to kill millions of people by gunpoint" they gladly joined in, because they were all going to become rich and powerful. Thats human nature, greed.

 

 

 

If I thought that humans were good, I would agree that there should be no govt.

 

But unfortunately I think like Hobbes that life without govt would cruel and short. I agree with Locke that we have to give up some rights, and I agree with John Stuart Mill that the rights we give up should be based on utility (if I dont harm you, you dont harm me.)

 

I just dont think that guns being legal or illegal has any relevance to the rise of Hitler. If anything, the type of fervent support behind it, is the exact emotion that a Hitler plays upon.

 

Ive read the books, I did the work. This was my focus in college. We are soon coming upon the days when people will start to agree with you, that it was just a few bad people, when almost anyone that actually was in Germany or was in WWII would say the exact opposite.

 

Maybe one day you will get a chance to actually know or meet someone who lived in Nazi Germany and escaped. Unfortunately the ones I knew are dead now, but it wasnt just a few "rich aristocrats". It was the German people. The regular every day Joe, was the backbone of the Nazi party. The Hitler youth, the regular people.

Normal people are capable of those things. But not murder on a scale that the Nazi's did.

[Soxbadger]

Would Americans have been pro-Holocaust? No, but unfortunately there was a pervasive atmosphere worldwide that allowed this sort of thing to be ignored. While I wouldn't want to say that bad government and genocide can't happen again in the Western world, it seems far less likely since it happened on such a large, public scale.

 

And if you would have asked a German Jew who served for Germany in WWI if they thought in 20 years theyd be in a death camp because they were anti-German, they would have said you were crazy.

 

Desperate times cause people to cling to desperate beliefs.

[Reddy]

And if you would have asked a German Jew who served for Germany in WWI if they thought in 20 years theyd be in a death camp because they were anti-German, they would have said you were crazy.

 

Desperate times cause people to cling to desperate beliefs.

 

This. In SPADES.

[ptatc]

Then we disagree on normal. I consider the normal human capable of bullying, capable of being mean, capable of creating cliques, capable of creating hypocritical rules for their own favor. I think the normal human is capable of committing crimes, capable of scams, capable of lying.

 

I think that anyone who claims that they are not capable of that would be abnormal or a liar.

 

Historically speaking, war is the natural state of humans. Peace is a new phenomenon. Less than 500 years ago it would have been extremely acceptable to kill someone for being a different religion, race etc.

 

It would be nice to believe that this relatively peaceful time is "normal" but based on the normal use of that term, it just cant be. War is more normal.

 

 

 

This is the classic argument, everything is always unique. You are right, there will never be another time that is exactly 1920's Germany. Never again. So I guess we shouldnt really think about it critically, because its a fact, it will never ever happen again.

 

The problem is, that if you look at it in the broader picture "minority being massacred by majority" and "minority being used as scapegoat for ills of majority" there are innumerable examples of it in history, basically every single country has experienced.

 

So I guess I dont think its very unique.

 

 

 

And the people followed. The facts are not in dispute, except for German/Nazi apologists.

 

When the Nazi's were retreating, did the regular German's free the concentration camps? Did they help the Jews? Did they even tell the allies that a bunch of people were being murdered?

 

The answer is no.

 

When the Nazis fled concentration camps, they either killed everyone or they locked them in and left them to die.

 

Lets call a spade a spade. They were complicit. This is not some "every German was forced to kill millions of people by gunpoint" they gladly joined in, because they were all going to become rich and powerful. Thats human nature, greed.

 

 

 

If I thought that humans were good, I would agree that there should be no govt.

 

But unfortunately I think like Hobbes that life without govt would cruel and short. I agree with Locke that we have to give up some rights, and I agree with John Stuart Mill that the rights we give up should be based on utility (if I dont harm you, you dont harm me.)

 

I just dont think that guns being legal or illegal has any relevance to the rise of Hitler. If anything, the type of fervent support behind it, is the exact emotion that a Hitler plays upon.

Ive read the books, I did the work. This was my focus in college. We are soon coming upon the days when people will start to agree with you, that it was just a few bad people, when almost anyone that actually was in Germany or was in WWII would say the exact opposite.

 

Maybe one day you will get a chance to actually know or meet someone who lived in Nazi Germany and escaped. Unfortunately the ones I knew are dead now, but it wasnt just a few "rich aristocrats". It was the German people. The regular every day Joe, was the backbone of the Nazi party. The Hitler youth, the regular people.

True, but by that time. It was just "time to save ourselves because the enemy is coming."

 

When a country is at war people to awful things that is a given. I am not a Nazi or German apologist. The country did awful things with the war and they got what they deserved. My point is exclusive to the way Hitler came to power. (I think that's where this started anyway) and what the "normal" person will do.

 

I have met many of them. That is where I became interested in the topic. I meet more and more every year. The stories they told me about their fear and the deathsquads activities that got me researching the topic.

 

I never said anything about guns stopping Hitler. I just said he and his merry band of executioners weren't normal and you said they were.

[Soxbadger]

Normal people are capable of those things. But not murder on a scale that the Nazi's did.

 

Was the US capable of eradicating the Native Americans?

 

Was the US capable of enslaving a race of people for skin color?

 

The entire problem is that the good of society relies on the few in power to make good decisions for the whole. Most people will blindly believe what they are told by the follower of their choice. Poor, uneducated, the masses are easily manipulated into believing that what they are doing is "right" or "good". They do not even believe what they are doing is wrong.

 

On these boards I get called a contrarian, devils advocate, etc. I dont try to be, but when you objectively look at many things, you see how easy people get swept up in the moment, how easy emotion takes over and a normal group of people can be capable of doing the most cruel and disgusting thing.

 

Nazi's were normal people. Normal people can do terrible things. The normal people of the US allowed govt of the US to drop an atomic bomb on the normal people of Japan. The normal people of Japan were willing to fly to their own death to kill the normal people of America.

 

We all fight for our own, we all create "others". We just always need to remember that we must treat our most hated enemy, better than they would ever treat us. Because otherwise we can always justify our cruelness and terribleness as being "normal."

[ptatc]

It'd like continue this but I've got to go get ready for an early flight to San Diego sponsored by a Federal Government research grant. I don't think we'll wind up agreeing anyway.

[GoodAsGould]

Wasn't there a study in the mid 1900's or somewhere around that time frame that gathered a bunch of normal people and made half of the officers and half of them inmates for a week both knowing that everyone involved was a willing participant and it lead to the group picked as guards to severely abusing the group picked as inmates. I want to say there was another study where people thought they were shocking someone on the other side of a window and it kept becoming a stronger shock up to the participant thinking they killed someone.

 

I know those type of studies aren't allowed today in our country at least but it was pretty eye opening what a normal person is capable of when either given directions or given power.

[Soxbadger]

True, but by that time. It was just "time to save ourselves because the enemy is coming."

 

Once again, this is the German myth narrative.

 

When the Germans really lost, they started to run to the Western Front (US/UK) so that they would be captured by the Americans and not the Soviets.

 

So when they were killing Jews on there way back to Germany and the German people were lying to allies and helping the Nazis, they were doing it because they believed the Nazis could win, because they wanted the Nazis to win.

 

(edit)

 

and no I dont think we will agree, good luck on your flight.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Soxbadger

[ptatc]

Was the US capable of eradicating the Native Americans?

 

Was the US capable of enslaving a race of people for skin color?

 

The entire problem is that the good of society relies on the few in power to make good decisions for the whole. Most people will blindly believe what they are told by the follower of their choice. Poor, uneducated, the masses are easily manipulated into believing that what they are doing is "right" or "good". They do not even believe what they are doing is wrong.

 

On these boards I get called a contrarian, devils advocate, etc. I dont try to be, but when you objectively look at many things, you see how easy people get swept up in the moment, how easy emotion takes over and a normal group of people can be capable of doing the most cruel and disgusting thing.

 

Nazi's were normal people. Normal people can do terrible things. The normal people of the US allowed govt of the US to drop an atomic bomb on the normal people of Japan. The normal people of Japan were willing to fly to their own death to kill the normal people of America.

 

We all fight for our own, we all create "others". We just always need to remember that we must treat our most hated enemy, better than they would ever treat us. Because otherwise we can always justify our cruelness and terribleness as being "normal."

The difference is intent. The US wanted the land they controlled, They didn't want to give it up. They Jews in Germany were not a threat. Hitler and his group just picked on an ethnicity to blame problems on and started killing, for no real reason.

 

By the way I agree that "not normal" people can gain control in government. That is why I prefer more local control

[Soxbadger]

By the way I agree that "not normal" people can gain control in government. That is why I prefer more local control

 

On the actual gun topic we might agree.

 

My belief is I dont care if texas wants to let their citizens buy tanks, just like Chicago should be able to say that their citizens cant have guns on the street.

 

 

[flippedoutpunk]

Wasn't there a study in the mid 1900's or somewhere around that time frame that gathered a bunch of normal people and made half of the officers and half of them inmates for a week both knowing that everyone involved was a willing participant and it lead to the group picked as guards to severely abusing the group picked as inmates. I want to say there was another study where people thought they were shocking someone on the other side of a window and it kept becoming a stronger shock up to the participant thinking they killed someone.

 

I know those type of studies aren't allowed today in our country at least but it was pretty eye opening what a normal person is capable of when either given directions or given power.

 

The Zimbardo prison experiment, great reference

[StrangeSox]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

 

We don't really know how we'd act if we were in 1930's Germany, or the Antebellum South, or apartheid South Africa etc.

[Reddy]

ezzactly

[Y2HH]

Sorry guys, but I have to chime in again.

 

I have quite a unique perspective on what life was like in Nazi Germany, as my dad actually lived in it, so I have been privy to what life was actually like from a person that actually lived it until his teens.

 

Like Ptac said, no, these were NOT normal people, because the time, and mostly, the situation in which they lived made them different people. In ways none of you could imagine. People were starving to death in Germany, so to quote the phrase, 'don't bite the hand that feeds you', fits more so than it would here, at this present time. If Hitler commanded one of his people to do something heinous, they did it, not only out of fear of the man that went from a being a lowly Private in WW1 to leading that entire country by WW2, but because he owned them to the point that he'd slaughter their families for disobeying. Hitler also had something pretty infamous called the SS...and THOSE were the people that carried out his most heinous orders. And again, the SS were NOT ordinary people, so please, can it.

 

That s*** wouldn't happen here. Some of you may hate Obama with every fiber of your being, but I guarantee the man would NEVER order his military to airstrike his own civilians. But again, that's Obama, in 2013. We don't know who will come into power in 2090 or what the state of the world will be like at that time...and the point is, we are a completely different people, living in a completely different world than the people who lived in Nazi Germany, following Hitlers command to the most minute detail.

 

Hitler commanded a rather small, well trained military in his time, in addition to an even smaller and super well trained to the point of being robotic SS. Our current military, by size alone, would be IMPOSSIBLE to control in the same manner. So please, let's stop pretending otherwise.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Y2HH

[Reddy]

Sorry guys, but I have to chime in again.

 

I have quite a unique perspective on what life was like in Nazi Germany, as my dad actually lived in it, so I have been privy to what life was actually like from a person that actually lived it until his teens. Also, for full disclosure, and don't hold this against me...my grandfather (my fathers father), fought in WWII on the Nazi side.

 

Like Ptac said, no, these were NOT normal people, because the time, and mostly, the situation in which they lived made them different people. In ways none of you could imagine. People were starving to death in Germany, so to quote the phrase, 'don't bite the hand that feeds you', fits more so than it would here, at this present time. If Hitler commanded one of his people to do something heinous, they did it, not only out of fear of the man that went from a being a lowly Private in WW1 to leading that entire country by WW2, but because he owned them to the point that he'd slaughter their families for disobeying. Hitler also had something pretty infamous called the SS...and THOSE were the people that carried out his most heinous orders. And again, the SS were NOT ordinary people, so please, can it.

 

That s*** wouldn't happen here. Some of you may hate Obama with every fiber of your being, but I guarantee the man would NEVER order his military to airstrike his own civilians. But again, that's Obama, in 2013. We don't know who will come into power in 2090 or what the state of the world will be like at that time...and the point is, we are a completely different people, living in a completely different world than the people who lived in Nazi Germany, following Hitlers command to the most minute detail.

 

Hitler commanded a rather small, well trained military in his time, in addition to an even smaller and super well trained to the point of being robotic SS. Our current military, by size alone, would be IMPOSSIBLE to control in the same manner. So please, let's stop pretending otherwise.

 

we're saying they were normal in the sense that most people under THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES would have done more or less the same thing. And by this I don't mean the higher ups, as I'll agree that those people were a special breed of evil - all we're saying is that people in groups are capable of really horrific things, and the circumstances of 1930's Germany lent themselves to the desensitization of the German people - thus why there were so many who were capable and willing to be a part of things like the SS.

[Jake]

I've gotten to study German cinema and it is surprising that almost 30 years passed before they're cultural products started to deal with the Nazi past. There's a reason: everyone was worthy of blame. A good movie, available on Netflix, called The Nasty Girl does an awesome job of dealing with this. Subtitled obviously, but a really great film that sheds some light on this stuff. Based on a true story too -- the real woman it is based on is not nearly as charming, I must tell you