The Wussification of America

[Y2HH]

That's why this whole home mortgage debate is interesting.

 

Nobody (well, almost nobody) takes the side of either the government or the bank.

 

However, you're also not going to get any type of agreement on the "greedy" individuals involved having the right to be bailed out the situations they got themselves into...because some are legitimately preyed upon by predatory lenders, and a large majority knew what they were getting into and just got too greedy.

 

In that sense, it's "wussification" that government operates in such a way that those responsible got golden parachutes and almost no repercussions for their criminal acts....whereas all those homeowners are still stuck well underwater. That there's no accountability or responsibility on the side of either the government or the private lending institutions or the ratings agencies....that all three were able to conspire together and the main result is that they're even further encouraged that they will be bailed out in the future, the whole "too big to fail" argument.

 

And I don't disagree blame was to be shared in that, it's unfortunate only one side was punished for this behavior.

[Y2HH]

absolutely, but there's a statistic that says 75% of parents of obese kids don't REALIZE their child is overweight.

 

how crazy is that?

 

parents these days have rose colored glasses like you wouldn't believe, and this whole "protect our kids at all cost" mentality really doesn't prepare them for the real world. I dunno. Just my opinion.

 

I agree that a balance is optimal

 

Agreed.

[Balta1701]

In my actual career path, first job I accepted was a non-paying IT internship at city hall, downtown Chicago. Note I said NON paying.

Great. Serious question in reply. How did you afford that? Savings? Parents helping?

 

The ability to take an unpaid internship and still survive, be able to afford to have a roof over your head and food in your stomach without a paycheck, is a serious benefit that a lot of the people being lectured about being wussies...simply don't have.

 

What would have happened to you if you'd gotten sick? Did you have health insurance at the time?

[Y2HH]

Great. Serious question in reply. How did you afford that? Savings? Parents helping?

 

The ability to take an unpaid internship and still survive, be able to afford to have a roof over your head and food in your stomach without a paycheck, is a serious benefit that a lot of the people being lectured about being wussies...simply don't have.

 

What would have happened to you if you'd gotten sick? Did you have health insurance at the time?

 

This was when I was still in school, so I was still living with my parents at the time. I was still quite young when this occurred (I think around 19 or 20). Along with that internship, I was still working my two part time jobs (osco at night during the week) and dunkin donuts on weekends. So, in essence, I was working 3 jobs (one unpaid), and going to school full time. Needless to say, I didn't have much time to "play".

 

By the time I was getting ready to graduate, I had accepted that tech support job, and upon graduating, I stayed with the company getting a raise to 31,200 a year (it was my real first out of school job). I was promoted to Jr. System Administrator. Coming out of college, I could have made ~45-50, as many of my graduating class were accepting jobs and making...but I chose to stay where I was and accept lesser money, because it was on the cutting edge of my profession. I made some sacrifices back then, and I won't pretend I wasn't "helped out" by others, namely my parents. But when others I knew were going off to school, living in dorms and having huge parties/the time of their lives, I was studying, working job after job, and nothing but.

 

It paid off in the end.

 

From my own observations, many people have such opportunities, but turn them down because they don't want to have to tell girls they still live with their parents...or they don't want to be around their parents, because they want to party. As I said, I won't pretend I wasn't given opportunities, but I took those opportunities, when it would have been just as easy to refuse them...because partying and girls were more important. While many of my friends rented a house together, I stayed home. I know...I'm super lame like that.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

For a lot of people, the options aren't "stay at a (stable) home with parents" or "go party in college"

[Y2HH]

For a lot of people, the options aren't "stay at a (stable) home with parents" or "go party in college"

 

Then they have other choices to make, don't they. That's not a question, it's a statement. I made the most of my opportunities, when I could have just as easily squandered them. Some people have it better, some people have it worse. And life isn't fair, but it goes on with or without your excuses, or your permission.

 

If you wan't your kids to have better opportunities than you had, then sacrifice for them, like my father did for me. It's not like were talking about some guy that had everything handed to him. He was an immigrant from Germany, during WWII...you know, when everyone LOVED German people who could barely speak English in the United States. He was such a beloved figure here, that when he arrived, they threw high paying jobs at him. Oh, wait...they didn't.

 

He could have leaned on lame ass excuses, too. But he didn't. Somehow, he made it, without all the opportunities he afforded me. Someone eventually has to stop making excuses and recognize they will only get so far...but perhaps they can enable their children to make it a bit farther. And so on down the line.

 

Or...f*** it, let's just make excuses, instead. Because it's easier.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

Then they have other choices to make, don't they. That's not a question, it's a statement. I made the most of my opportunities, when I could have just as easily squandered them. Some people have it better, some people have it worse. And life isn't fair, but it goes on with or without your excuses, or your permission.

But this entire thread is taking it a step further.

 

Yes, some people get more opportunities and squander them. You know what? That doesn't make them wussies. That doesn't mean society is going down the toilet.

 

You think there weren't 20-somethings who made bad decisions in the 20's, 30's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and so on (omission intentional)? That somehow "OMG we're all doomed because people are making bad choices early in their lives" is a new phenomenon?

[Y2HH]

But this entire thread is taking it a step further.

 

Yes, some people get more opportunities and squander them. You know what? That doesn't make them wussies. That doesn't mean society is going down the toilet.

 

You think there weren't 20-somethings who made bad decisions in the 20's, 30's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and so on (omission intentional)? That somehow "OMG we're all doomed because people are making bad choices early in their lives" is a new phenomenon?

 

I never said it makes them wussies. But if you squander opportunities, it's your own fault.

[Balta1701]

I never said it makes them wussies. But if you squander opportunities, it's your own fault.

Very true.

 

But you know another thing that also makes us better people and makes us a better country?

 

When people squander opportunities...they can get more. Oh sure it can cost them dearly, and it does so. Sometimes people go pretty far down the rabbit hole before they come back. Sometimes people are lost forever down it.

 

But we're all better off when a person can spend 20 years as an addict, as a lost soul, and still come back and become a productive member of society once they deal with their demons. Or when a person who decides to live with his or her friends after college is given the chance to figure out what is important to them.

 

That's not making excuses. That's life. And it is not an indictment of the American system, it's not making people wussies, it is a strength.

[StrangeSox]

Then they have other choices to make, don't they. That's not a question, it's a statement. I made the most of my opportunities, when I could have just as easily squandered them. Some people have it better, some people have it worse. And life isn't fair, but it goes on with or without your excuses, or your permission.

 

If you wan't your kids to have better opportunities than you had, then sacrifice for them, like my father did for me. It's not like were talking about some guy that had everything handed to him. He was an immigrant from Germany, during WWII...you know, when everyone LOVED German people who could barely speak English in the United States. He was such a beloved figure here, that when he arrived, they threw high paying jobs at him. Oh, wait...they didn't.

 

He could have leaned on lame ass excuses, too. But he didn't. Somehow, he made it, without all the opportunities he afforded me. Someone eventually has to stop making excuses and recognize they will only get so far...but perhaps they can enable their children to make it a bit farther. And so on down the line.

 

Or...f*** it, let's just make excuses, instead. Because it's easier.

 

It's easier to imagine that everyone is a "wussy" who made bad choices if they're in a s***ty spot in life than to actually try to dig down and understand social structures, opportunities, privileges, generational poverty, etc. and that the experiences of immigrants from 50+ years ago are relevant to today's opportunities for the poor and middle class.

 

There's nothing wrong with making the most of the opportunities you've been presented with. It's just that, for a lot of people, those opportunities are still pretty s***. And because the path to those opportunities is much more perilous, it's much easier to have one minor misstep result in them being squandered.

[Y2HH]

Very true.

 

But you know another thing that also makes us better people and makes us a better country?

 

When people squander opportunities...they can get more. Oh sure it can cost them dearly, and it does so. Sometimes people go pretty far down the rabbit hole before they come back. Sometimes people are lost forever down it.

 

But we're all better off when a person can spend 20 years as an addict, as a lost soul, and still come back and become a productive member of society once they deal with their demons. Or when a person who decides to live with his or her friends after college is given the chance to figure out what is important to them.

 

That's not making excuses. That's life. And it is not an indictment of the American system, it's not making people wussies, it is a strength.

 

Well, we agree on that. I like living in a country that will help you back onto your feet when you need it, or a country that affords our young people the opportunity "to find themselves and what they want out of life", because if they were born in the wrong country, there is no such opportunity for anything like that.

 

If used properly, the system can be your shoulder to lean on when you need it most.

 

Unfortunately, that shoulder can also become your ability to "wuss your way out", and instead of trying to get back onto your feet...simply leaning on it, because it's easier than the alternative.

[Balta1701]

Well, we agree on that. I like living in a country that will help you back onto your feet when you need it, or a country that affords our young people the opportunity "to find themselves and what they want out of life", because if they were born in the wrong country, there is no such opportunity for anything like that.

 

If used properly, the system can be your shoulder to lean on when you need it most.

 

Unfortunately, that shoulder can also become your ability to "wuss your way out", and instead of trying to get back onto your feet...simply leaning on it, because it's easier than the alternative.

Like I said earlier...If you're building a bridge...you don't decide "If I put a net beneath it, some people might jump just to see what it's like" and decide you're not putting up a safety net.

 

A good safety net is going to always have freeloaders. You can take steps to minimize it, and you should. Work requirements for TANF (which, yes, exist). etc. But you still put the net there, because you're better off if anyone who falls...gets caught before impact.

[Y2HH]

It's easier to imagine that everyone is a "wussy" who made bad choices if they're in a s***ty spot in life than to actually try to dig down and understand social structures, opportunities, privileges, generational poverty, etc. and that the experiences of immigrants from 50+ years ago are relevant to today's opportunities for the poor and middle class.

 

There's nothing wrong with making the most of the opportunities you've been presented with. It's just that, for a lot of people, those opportunities are still pretty s***. And because the path to those opportunities is much more perilous, it's much easier to have one minor misstep result in them being squandered.

 

I'm not saying that people are "wussys" because they were dealt a bad hand, either. But I will say it's better to be dealt a bad hand in this country than it is in many others. For some, life will be easy street...take for example, a person like Paris Hilton. In comparison to her, my life was hell trying to get from there to here. I worked 3 jobs, went to school full time, and lived with my parents. For someone else, MY life was easy street. So, you can throw your hands up, claim the system is rigged and give up...and make excuses all along the road to failure...or you can accept that s***ty hand you were dealt, make the best of it, and TRY to stack the deck a little for your kids, so the hand they're dealt will be just a little better than the one you had to deal with.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

Like I said earlier...If you're building a bridge...you don't decide "If I put a net beneath it, some people might jump just to see what it's like" and decide you're not putting up a safety net.

 

A good safety net is going to always have freeloaders. You can take steps to minimize it, and you should. Work requirements for TANF (which, yes, exist). etc. But you still put the net there, because you're better off if anyone who falls...gets caught before impact.

 

Agreed.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not saying that people are "wussys" because they were dealt a bad hand, either. But I will say it's better to be dealt a bad hand in this country than it is in many others. For some, life will be easy street...take for example, a person like Paris Hilton. In comparison to her, my life was hell trying to get from there to here. I worked 3 jobs, went to school full time, and lived with my parents. For someone else, MY life was easy street. So, you can throw your hands up, claim the system is rigged and give up...and make excuses all along the road to failure...or you can accept that s***ty hand you were dealt, make the best of it, and TRY to stack the deck a little for your kids, so the hand they're dealt will be just a little better than the one you had to deal with.

 

You can also work to understand and de-rig the system so that fewer people are dealt unearned s*** or unearned privilege.

[Y2HH]

You can also work to understand and de-rig the system so that fewer people are dealt unearned s*** or unearned privilege.

 

Someone DID earn it, even if it was earned "for them". I'd prefer to NOT live in a system that takes that away...yes, even from people like Paris Hilton. Believe me, time will take care of that on it's own...we don't need a "system" to take it away from people like Paris Hilton...when she'll give it away on her own. Three generations shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves.

 

I have some news for you, every system is rigged, some more so than others. But you can take your 1984 system and stuff it. Not interested. I'd rather live in the rigged system we have now than the sterile one you're wishing you had.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Every system has problems, yeah, that doesn't mean you don't work to correct or fix them. Not sure where you'd get "1984" from that, though. That was a system with rigid class structures based on a totalitarian government; reducing class, race, gender etc. socioeconomic discrepancies doesn't really require anything like that.

 

edit: fun tangential fact: for as often as Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm get cited by people making a conservative argument, it should be noted that Orwell was a dedicated Trotskyite.

Edited January 21, 2013 by StrangeSox

[DukeNukeEm]

You can also work to understand and de-rig the system so that fewer people are dealt unearned s*** or unearned privilege.

And that's the responsibility of the rest of us? That's our cross to bear?

 

Hell no. I would never give poor people a dime of my money because for the one that actually spends on his/her's cost of living/some form of betterment there's 99 lined up at the liquor store or crack dealer.

[iamshack]

Like I said earlier...If you're building a bridge...you don't decide "If I put a net beneath it, some people might jump just to see what it's like" and decide you're not putting up a safety net.

 

A good safety net is going to always have freeloaders. You can take steps to minimize it, and you should. Work requirements for TANF (which, yes, exist). etc. But you still put the net there, because you're better off if anyone who falls...gets caught before impact.

I'm just curious...for you and SS...is there ever anywhere you draw the line and say "ok, at some point, a human being has to take responsibility for him/herself and actually do something"? Or are there always societal or cultural factors...someone else to blame...some government or a political figure or a study to cite?

[Y2HH]

Every system has problems, yeah, that doesn't mean you don't work to correct or fix them. Not sure where you'd get "1984" from that, though. That was a system with rigid class structures based on a totalitarian government; reducing class, race, gender etc. socioeconomic discrepancies doesn't really require anything like that.

 

My point is, you don't have have to "rig" the system to "de-rig" unearned opportunity from others. Those who receive unearned opportunity eventually squander it on their own. But rigging one system to de-rig another, especially when it's unnecessary, is an absurd idea to me.

 

The proverb three generations shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves exists for a reason...and while sometimes it takes more or less than the three generations, it eventually happens. Those who gain things without having to earn them tend to squander them rather quickly. In all cultures.

[StrangeSox]

I'm just curious...for you and SS...is there ever anywhere you draw the line and say "ok, at some point, a human being has to take responsibility for him/herself and actually do something"? Or are there always societal or cultural factors...someone else to blame...some government or a political figure or a study to cite?

 

Why can't it be both individual and societal and, maybe more importantly, nothing to do with "blame" at all?

[Y2HH]

Why can't it be both individual and societal and, maybe more importantly, nothing to do with "blame" at all?

 

It already is both individual and societal. The problem is, lately, it's leaning more toward society because we are busy devaluing personal responsibility through incredibly s***ty parenting...or total lack thereof.

[iamshack]

Why can't it be both individual and societal and, maybe more importantly, nothing to do with "blame" at all?

Honestly, you and Balta are the ones that are always assigning blame to some larger cause, rather than actually expecting people to show some kind of responsibility on their own.

[StrangeSox]

My point is, you don't have have to "rig" the system to "de-rig" unearned opportunity from others. Those who receive unearned opportunity eventually squander it on their own. But rigging one system to de-rig another, especially when it's unnecessary, is an absurd idea to me.

 

The proverb three generations shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves exists for a reason...and while sometimes it takes more or less than the three generations, it eventually happens. Those who gain things without having to earn them tend to squander them rather quickly. In all cultures.

 

I'm not sure how much it's a zero-sum game, but to whatever extent that it is, you do need to remove the unearned privileges that one group or class enjoys if you're to take away the corresponding disadvantage. e.g. to whatever extend males enjoy an unearned privilege in today's society, if we're to make women truly equal, that privilege will need to be removed from men. If you're only thinking about it in terms of inherited wealth, I think you're going to miss most of the picture.

[StrangeSox]

Honestly, you and Balta are the ones that are always assigning blame to some larger cause, rather than actually expecting people to show some kind of responsibility on their own.

Plenty of people in s***ty situations are hard-working and responsible people. Plenty of people in great situations work no harder than them. I think understanding why is important and that blaming it on lazy poors is just a reflexive defense of privileges you've been given in life.