2013-2014 NFL Thread

[HuskyCaucasian]

A little something I created (cleaned up my previous version)...

[Jenksismyhero]

What system doesn't have deep passes as an important play or at least important to be a credible threat?

 

Um, this one? Also, can McCown make 30-40 yard passes? Yes. See the Jeffrey catch last night.

 

 

You're not following.

 

The entire offense didn't have time to adjust to the new system. The entire rest of the offense has kept playing, even with Cutler down. Everyone else on the field is more experienced in that offense. The two rookie linemen have gained immensely valuable experience. Alshon Jeffrey has gone from being a pretty good developing WR2 to a highlight reel machine. That's all really independent of Cutler or McCown personally having experience with the system.

 

McCown has performed pretty well so far. "Immensely" better? No, not really, and he's not putting up any more points than Cutler was.

 

But that still makes no sense when looking at it on a game by game basis. In the middle of the Washington game McCown came in with the same offense and played immensely better than Cutler. Same thing in the Lions game. Also, at some point you have to acknowledge that the guy with the ball calling plays for the last 7-8 games (when the entire offense got better) has some role in the offense getting better. I see a guy who is in more control of the offense, calls better audibles, makes better decisions with the ball, etc.

[Soxbadger]

Most Bears fans have a deep, subconscious desire to want a mediocre QB and to always, always root for the backup. It's all they know from decades of suffering.

 

Not true at all. I just dont think Cutler is a great fit for this system. If the Bears had Drew Brees we wouldnt be having this discussion.

 

Jay Cutler has never had a season with a QB rating over 90. You guys are just hyping him beyond belief because of his "big arm". And prior to this year his best statistical season came in 2007.

 

Right now Cutler is ranked 12th for QB rating. To me that is exceedingly mediocre when 5 Qbs have ratings over 106.

 

That is right 5 Qbs have +20 rating better than Cutler and thats not counting Foles or McCown. Sam Bradford has a better rating than Cutler. Everyone always made excuses for Cutler, now those are excuses are gone.

 

 

Who are you crapping?

 

 

 

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

What about based on the game where they played the same opponent with the same team?

 

Redskins:

 

J. McCown 14/20 204 10.2 1 0 1-7 94.6 119.6

J. Cutler 3/8 28 3.5 0 1 1-6 0.1 8.3

 

Detroit:

 

Game 1

 

J. Cutler 27/47 317 6.7 2 3 3-31 36.6 65.6

 

Game 2

 

J. Cutler 21/40 250 6.3 1 1 1-9 47.2 69.8

 

J. McCown 6/9 62 6.9 1 0 1-3 93.3 123.4

 

 

But you are right, lets give Cutler a blank check, because what if he is good.

 

What I find funny is that people are making excuses for a guy who is going to want $100mil + at age 31 with stats that are worse than a journeyman. And you guys are just lining up to pay him.

 

His entire career up to this point doesn't count because X, Y, Z................. he's got a cannon for an arm dammit! We must pay for him!

[RockRaines]

Um, this one? Also, can McCown make 30-40 yard passes? Yes. See the Jeffrey catch last night.

 

 

 

 

But that still makes no sense when looking at it on a game by game basis. In the middle of the Washington game McCown came in with the same offense and played immensely better than Cutler. Same thing in the Lions game. Also, at some point you have to acknowledge that the guy with the ball calling plays for the last 7-8 games (when the entire offense got better) has some role in the offense getting better. I see a guy who is in more control of the offense, calls better audibles, makes better decisions with the ball, etc.

Cutler wasnt good while hurt. Good point. Its pretty obvious you are stuck on McCown coming into his own as a QB this year. I just would rather go with the safer bet with the better upside. To each his own.

[RockRaines]

Not true at all. I just dont think Cutler is a great fit for this system. If the Bears had Drew Brees we wouldnt be having this discussion.

 

Jay Cutler has never had a season with a QB rating over 90. You guys are just hyping him beyond belief because of his "big arm". And prior to this year his best statistical season came in 2007.

 

 

 

 

Who are you crapping?

McCown has never had a season with a QB rating over 74.9 So great point.

[Soxbadger]

Remember when NE let Brady go after Cassel had that good season and proved it was really just the system and the QB didn't matter?

 

Are you seriously comparing Brady to Cutler?

 

Here was Brady's stats

 

TEAM GP CMP ATT CMP% YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM QBR RAT

 

2007 NE 16 398 578 68.9 4,806 8.32 50 69 8 4 87.1 117.2

 

Here were Cassels the next years:

 

2008 16 327 516 63.4 3,693 7.16 21 76 11 5 61.7 89.4

 

Notice that Cassel is more Cutler and Tom Brady is more Tom Brady.

 

So yah if you think Cutler is a HOF Qb and as good as Brady, give him $15mil.

 

I dont think Cutler is that good, not even close.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Um, this one?

 

Good point! Deep passes are never considered a threat with Trestman. Wait....

 

Also, can McCown make 30-40 yard passes? Yes. See the Jeffrey catch last night.

 

Oh, so deep passes are important? Whoops.

 

McCown has had a couple of deep passes. He is nowhere near the deep threat that Cutler is. And it's not just depth, but longer throws across the field or harder throws to get into tighter windows. Cutler can make those throws while McCown can't.

 

 

But that still makes no sense when looking at it on a game by game basis. In the middle of the Washington game McCown came in with the same offense and played immensely better than Cutler. Same thing in the Lions game. Also, at some point you have to acknowledge that the guy with the ball calling plays for the last 7-8 games (when the entire offense got better) has some role in the offense getting better. I see a guy who is in more control of the offense, calls better audibles, makes better decisions with the ball, etc.

 

 

He left earlier in the game. No, he wasn't playing well and yes McCown stepped in and did.

 

How is McCown "in more control of the offense"? What does that mean?

 

What is the evidence that he's calling better audibles? How do you know when he's calling audibles?

[BigSqwert]

McCown has never had a season with a QB rating over 74.9 So great point.

 

Except in 2013 when it will be over 100.

Edited December 10, 2013 by BigSqwert

[Soxbadger]

McCown has never had a season with a QB rating over 74.9 So great point.

 

And im saying to pay McCown $2-3mil.

 

Remember, this isnt about McCown. This is about why cutler isnt worth $15mil per season.

 

And so far no one wants to address that. They just want to make asinine comparisons to Tom Brady (117 qb rating).

[RockRaines]

Except in 2103 when it will be over 100.

Right what an improvement, which is why I would like to see what this system can do with a QB with much more upside.

[BigSqwert]

Right what an improvement, which is why I would like to see what this system can do with a QB with much more upside.

I've seen more than a handful of games with Cutler under center this year and he seemed pretty good at best.

[Jenksismyhero]

Thanks for bringing up the stat, which is exactly the point. That TD:INT ratio doesn't tell the whole story about whether a player is making smart decisions with the ball. If McCown throws it right to the DB 50 times but they always drop it, wouldn't it be pretty silly to talk about how he always makes great decisions?

 

 

Actually, he had the longest gap between red zone interceptions until earlier this year with that tipped ball. He hadn't thrown one since 2010.

 

Nobody is arguing that Cutler doesn't make dumb decisions, though. Just that how "smart" McCown is is overstated by seven games worth of TD:INT.

 

I have no idea what you're arguing anymore. You're pointing to bad throws by QB's as some kind of sign that they're not smart. Ok? Peyton Manning has some dropped interceptions too. NOT A HALL OF FAMER.

 

No one is claiming McCown is Peyton Manning. No one is claiming McCown can keep up this pace. The argument is whether Cutler is 5 times the QB since that's going to be the cost the Bears have to consider in keeping him.

[Harry Chappas]

I'll laugh at whoever signs Josh McCown as their starter in the offseason, and if its the Bears i'll laugh in shame.

 

Nobody is signing him to anything. This season proves that the system works and works well. The play calling and OL design help to protect the quarterback and lead to QB numbers that can be impressive.

 

The question is, what is Jay Cutler worth. Can Matt Schaub work in this system? Is there a draftee that can work in this system? Those are the organizational decisions. is there a guy that can be plugged in that can get you what Jay gets you.

 

Jay is not young so epic turnarounds in how he manages a team is not happening.

 

[RockRaines]

And im saying to pay McCown $2-3mil.

 

Remember, this isnt about McCown. This is about why cutler isnt worth $15mil per season.

 

And so far no one wants to address that. They just want to make asinine comparisons to Tom Brady (117 qb rating).

LOLWhat? Several people in this thread has said yes pay him. Less Risk, Higher upside. Its a NO BRAINER.

 

unless you have a better QB option, tell me. Otherwise its McCown vs Cutler and its not even a debate IMO.

[StrangeSox]

I haven't seen any of the McCown boosters address the cupcake defense thing yet.

[RockRaines]

Nobody is signing him to anything. This season proves that the system works and works well. The play calling and OL design help to protect the quarterback and lead to QB numbers that can be impressive.

 

The question is, what is Jay Cutler worth. Can Matt Schaub work in this system? Is there a draftee that can work in this system? Those are the organizational decisions. is there a guy that can be plugged in that can get you what Jay gets you.

 

Jay is not young so epic turnarounds in how he manages a team is not happening.

Cutler is worth 1 year as a franchise player and if you draft or bring in a young guy in the meantime, more power to you. I need to see Cutler in this system for at least one more year.

[Jenksismyhero]

Remember when NE let Brady go after Cassel had that good season and proved it was really just the system and the QB didn't matter?

 

Lol. Wow. That's an awesome comparison to this situation. 2013 Cutler and 2008 Brady had equal careers.

[RockRaines]

Lol. Wow. That's an awesome comparison to this situation. 2013 Cutler and 2008 Brady had equal careers.

Pretty sure he was comparing Cassel and McCown there.

[StrangeSox]

I have no idea what you're arguing anymore. You're pointing to bad throws by QB's as some kind of sign that they're not smart. Ok? Peyton Manning has some dropped interceptions too. NOT A HALL OF FAMER.

 

I understand that you're not following the argument, but it's not that complicated. If we want to talk about QBs making good decisions, you can't look only at the number of INTs they have. It misses all of the times that they made really poor decisions but were lucky with them.

 

Nobody has said anything close to what you're trying to parody here.

 

No one is claiming McCown is Peyton Manning. No one is claiming McCown can keep up this pace.

 

Many, including you, are arguing that he can keep up pretty phenomenal and completely unprecedented (for him) pace.

 

The argument is whether Cutler is 5 times the QB since that's going to be the cost the Bears have to consider in keeping him.

 

That's not the argument because that's not how football/economics works e.g. you might have to pay twice as much to get 10% better production.

 

 

[Soxbadger]

I haven't seen any of the McCown boosters address the cupcake defense thing yet.

 

You mean the stats I showed against the Redskins and Lions?

 

or what about Vikings:

 

Cutler 27 38 292 71.1 7.68 34 3 2 59.4 97.7

 

McCown 23 36 355 63.9 9.86 80 2 0 66.5 114.9

 

The only games where Cutler and McCown had similar opponents and McCown did astronomically better?

 

Not sure what else I can point out. Unless its the Vikings/Redkins/Lions all jobbed to McCown to trick us.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Nobody is signing him to anything. This season proves that the system works and works well. The play calling and OL design help to protect the quarterback and lead to QB numbers that can be impressive.

 

The question is, what is Jay Cutler worth. Can Matt Schaub work in this system? Is there a draftee that can work in this system? Those are the organizational decisions. is there a guy that can be plugged in that can get you what Jay gets you.

 

Jay is not young so epic turnarounds in how he manages a team is not happening.

 

 

Come on now, we are seeing it happen with McCown right now.

[Soxbadger]

Pretty sure he was comparing Cassel and McCown there.

 

No he implied that letting Cutler walk would be the equivalent of picking Cassel over Brady.

 

Which is absurd as the year before Brady put up 117 rating over a full season.

 

[StrangeSox]

You mean the stats I showed against the Redskins and Lions?

 

Two games Cutler left because of injuries? One of which he was clearly injured the entire time? Yeah, that's a pretty horrible comparison.

 

or what about Vikings:

 

Cutler 27 38 292 71.1 7.68 34 3 2 59.4 97.7

 

McCown 23 36 355 63.9 9.86 80 2 0 66.5 114.9

 

The only games where Cutler and McCown had similar opponents and McCown did astronomically better?

 

Not sure what else I can point out. Unless its the Vikings/Redkins/Lions all jobbed to McCown to trick us.

Yep McCown played better against the Vikings. And if we're going to keep talking about his (half) season numbers, we need to keep in mind that he's been putting them up against garbage defenses.

[Soxbadger]

That's not the argument because that's not how football/economics works e.g. you might have to pay twice as much to get 10% better production.

 

And thats silly if you can use that money to fix other positions.

 

If the Bears had no other holes and had money to burn, sure spend it on Cutler, all things being equal (money) he probably is the safer bet.

 

But if you are living in a world where you have fixed income, you cant always spend your money on luxuries.