NBA/NFL age limits

[southsider2k5]

No once again, if you created a rule that was to prohibitive it is more likely to get attacked in court.

 

When the NBA was deciding this you had 3 leagues to base it off of, NHL, NFL and NHL.

 

2 leagues do not have a requirement of 18.

 

1 league does.

 

It makes perfect sense that both sides agreed on a year amount that would have been less than or equal to the NFL rule.

 

And also you once again are assuming you know what was being offered. What if the NBPA couldnt get much more if they agreed to 2 years instead of 1?

 

Its a complete assumption to act like either of us know the true motivation.

 

If the motivation is them not caring common sense states it would be the first thing to get given away, regardless.

 

[Soxbadger]

If the motivation is them not caring common sense states it would be the first thing to get given away, regardless.

 

No it isnt. If you know the other side wants something bad, regardless of how little it may matter to you, you hold onto it for leverage as long as possible.

 

The first thing to be given away is the thing that the you think the other side wants the least and you also want the least.

 

You hold onto your big chip for something you really really want, and usually the other party doesnt give you what you really really want on the first go around.

[southsider2k5]

No it isnt. If you know the other side wants something bad, regardless of how little it may matter to you, you hold onto it for leverage as long as possible.

 

The first thing to be given away is the thing that the you think the other side wants the least and you also want the least.

 

You hold onto your big chip for something you really really want, and usually the other party doesnt give you what you really really want on the first go around.

 

So they held on to the thing that they really really didn't want, and that is supposed to make sense? lol. OK.

[StrangeSox]

Go read up on what Kentucky basketball players get (and other similar D1 programs). They live a very nice lifestyle in college. Better with tens of millions in the bank? Sure. But not anything like their dirt-poor upbringing.

 

Above-board and within NCAA regulations? Nobody's arguing that the NCAA isn't corrupt as hell as-is, but that's a point against the "paying players will ruin the game" side.

[Soxbadger]

So they held on to the thing that they really really didn't want, and that is supposed to make sense? lol. OK.

 

Its not always about what you want, it also matters what your opponent wants.

 

If you have a valuable negotiating piece you hold onto it. Value can be determined 2 ways. 1 by what you are willing to pay for it or 2 by what someone else is willing to pay for it. Just because a ticket to the Cubs game may be worthless to me doesnt mean Ill just give it away to a Cubs fan if I think they are willing to pay $1milllion dollars for it. And if I determine that is my most valuable piece, I am going to hold onto it, regardless of what its worth is actually to me, until I get a deal that I want.

 

This is pretty common in settlements, parties often value property differently but you leverage what you have.

[southsider2k5]

Its not always about what you want, it also matters what your opponent wants.

 

If you have a valuable negotiating piece you hold onto it. Value can be determined 2 ways. 1 by what you are willing to pay for it or 2 by what someone else is willing to pay for it. Just because a ticket to the Cubs game may be worthless to me doesnt mean Ill just give it away to a Cubs fan if I think they are willing to pay $1milllion dollars for it. And if I determine that is my most valuable piece, I am going to hold onto it, regardless of what its worth is actually to me, until I get a deal that I want.

 

This is pretty common in settlements, parties often value property differently but you leverage what you have.

 

Seeing as they came to an agreement, that means the NBAPA really f***ed up in your world.

[Soxbadger]

Seeing as they came to an agreement, that means the NBAPA really f***ed up in your world.

 

No it doesnt. They gave away something they didnt want, and got something valuable in return.

 

Thats called winning.

 

Its just like in a trade where 1 team is giving up a player they dont really want, but feels the other team highly values them. They try and get as much as possible for the player, but eventually make the deal when theyve pushed as far as they can.

 

I dont know how that can be construed as f***ing up.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

No it doesnt. They gave away something they didnt want, and got something valuable in return.

 

Thats called winning.

 

Its just like in a trade where 1 team is giving up a player they dont really want, but feels the other team highly values them. They try and get as much as possible for the player, but eventually make the deal when theyve pushed as far as they can.

 

I dont know how that can be construed as f***ing up.

 

(this is basically negotiating 101)

 

Get as much as you possibly can for the things you are willing to give up.

 

Except they didn't give it away, and now they have to wait 10 years to use it, if it is even relevant in 2020.

[StrangeSox]

No it doesnt. They gave away something they didnt want, and got something valuable in return.

 

Thats called winning.

 

Its just like in a trade where 1 team is giving up a player they dont really want, but feels the other team highly values them. They try and get as much as possible for the player, but eventually make the deal when theyve pushed as far as they can.

 

I dont know how that can be construed as f***ing up.

Which is why when it becomes public that a team really, really wants to unload a player, they can't get as much for them.

[Soxbadger]

Except they didn't give it away, and now they have to wait 10 years to use it, if it is even relevant in 2020.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Players used to be able to enter the NBA at any age, now its after 1 year. How did they not give that to the NBA???

[StrangeSox]

count me as confused, too.

[southsider2k5]

What are you talking about?

 

Players used to be able to enter the NBA at any age, now its after 1 year. How did they not give that to the NBA???

 

The NBA wanted 3 or 4 years, not one.

[StrangeSox]

Nbpa ostensibly wanted no restrictions, sounds like a compromise was reached.

[Rex Hudler]

They're forced to take unpaid jobs that generate billions of dollars for others or to leave the country for at least a year.

 

Or get a job digging ditches, what's your point? They have choices, just because you don't like the choices, doesn't make them wrong.

[southsider2k5]

Nbpa ostensibly wanted no restrictions, sounds like a compromise was reached.

 

Except they didn't care about this one, supposedly, so why compromise? Give it away to get anything else.

 

[Rex Hudler]

If the NFL allowed teams to draft 18 year olds, don't you think they'd develop a minor league system (either in conjunction with the AFL or independently or otherwise) and that they'd expand the draft? Increase it to 20 rounds and allow for like 47 man rosters for the NFML

 

No, because minor league sports, outside of the established baseball model, have proven not to be economically feasible. Call it the developmental league, the minor league or whatever, franchises need to rent facilities, sell tickets, make money, etc. It makes no sense for franchises to invest millions developing players who may or may not pan out. The cost of that would be passed along elsewhere, whether that be lower player salaries, higher ticket prices, etc.

[Rex Hudler]

So why can't the NBA draft "grown men" (is a 19 year old college superstar a "grown man"? I know I was still immature as hell my sophomore year) without a hard rule against the occasional HS draftee?

 

They're not being paid to go to school, they're getting a full scholarship for a year and then, if they were good enough to be drafted right out of HS, they'll be gone. They're not there for the classes, and if they are injured to the point that their NBA career is gone, then they'll be losing their athletic scholarship as well. If they were actually being paid appropriately for the revenue they generate, that'd be different.

 

Your stance on that makes me want to puke. It is so far off of reality, I'm not even goint to argue the point.

[Quin]

I just want to point out that someone mentioned that you either need a genius front office that makes bold moves and cited the Thunder and Spurs OR a superstar in the draft.

 

Yes, the Spurs front office is run by geniuses, but, um, Tim Duncan is the reason they have 4 Championships. That was a luck into superstar draft.

 

Same with OKC.

[ZoomSlowik]

I just want to point out that someone mentioned that you either need a genius front office that makes bold moves and cited the Thunder and Spurs OR a superstar in the draft.

 

Yes, the Spurs front office is run by geniuses, but, um, Tim Duncan is the reason they have 4 Championships. That was a luck into superstar draft.

 

Same with OKC.

 

Or be the Lakers or Heat.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Your stance on that makes me want to puke. It is so far off of reality, I'm not even goint to argue the point.

Cool.

[StrangeSox]

Or get a job digging ditches, what's your point? They have choices, just because you don't like the choices, doesn't make them wrong.

That the ncaa is s***?

[ptatc]

Some listen, some dont. But whether or not they listen, isnt dependent on whether they went to college. Some of the people who listen best to advice are those who didnt go to college. Some of the people who are the worst, have graduate degrees.

 

Many smart people dont listen to advice, because they think they are so smart that no one else possibly could have anything to tell them.

 

I honestly think that while we have different opinions we both are actually wanting the same thing, for these athletes to have the best chance to succeed. I just dont trust the NCAA/NBA to be making the best choices for them.

I'm not necessarily requiring college. Only the growing maturity with age. A formal minor league system would do as well. Either way you will not catch all of them but more of them will be ready for the physical and emotional/social rigor of professional sports when they are 20 vs. 18 with life experience away from home.

 

You correct that we want the same thing. We just have different ways to get there. I'm basing my opinion on experience with these guys in pro sports. The guys who spent time in minors or college are very different from the guys who don't. Of course it doesn't apply to all of them. No one rule does but it is true for most of them.

[ptatc]

This is the best argument for why the NBA rule is okay Ive seen yet.

 

At least you are saying that it some way has a tangible benefit for the players, they will receive more money later on.

This is part of the larger point. The players are more prepared to play at the pro level partly due to the physical maturity and part because they are mentally ready to handle it.

[StrangeSox]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news...1&eref=sihp

 

Bauman embodies everything for which college athletics should stand. He should be the face of the NCAA. But the NCAA wants to make sure it is the only entity that can make money off Bauman’s face. Fearing an NCAA reprisal, Minnesota officials have asked Bauman to take his name off his songs and remove his image from the videos if he wants to remain eligible to wrestle at Minnesota.

 

He has two more years of eligibility remaining, but he is willing to sacrifice his scholarship rather than go by an alias in his music. “Now that I have a message,” Bauman said Wednesday, “I’m not going to go by an alias to deliver my message. … If I stop, what would that show people? If I just made an alias, what would that show people? That I’m going to quit what I started?”

 

This is the NCAA in a nutshell. When it isn’t busy hijacking a federal bankruptcy deposition to gather dirt in defense of its flawed model of amateurism in an infractions case involving Miami, its schools use that same flawed model as the rationale to attempt to crush a young person’s non-sports career. Never mind that if Bauman were a minor league baseball player instead of a singer, the NCAA would allow him to keep his baseball earnings and still wrestle. Apparently, those 99-cent iTunes downloads of Bauman’s Ones In The Sky represent a threat to the purity of college athletics, even though Bauman has yet to make a cent of profit. “I’ve not broken even on anything I’ve done,” he said.

 

At some point, the people at the NCAA and the leaders of the universities that comprise its membership need to stop and think about what exactly they’re fighting for here. Bauman’s case is yet another example of a group of people who have their heads stuck so deep in their massive rulebook that they can’t see the bigger picture.

 

Bauman, who is just returning to the mat in practice after missing three months because of concussion issues, is hoping he can make a last-ditch effort to keep his music and his scholarship without giving up his name. “I have a plan,” he said. “I’m going to run it by our compliance department.” If he wanted to go by DJ Takedown or MC Reversal, Bauman could promote his music on YouTube and sell his songs on iTunes. But why should he have to? If Bauman’s name is the price of a wrestling scholarship, the price is too high.

 

The NCAA created this particular model of amateurism -- as well as the term "student-athlete" -- decades ago so schools could avoid paying payroll taxes on their athletes and so schools wouldn't have to pay worker's compensation claims when those athletes were injured. While not entirely above-board, that probably was the fairest, most practical solution available in an era in which college sports were a business but not a huge one. Thanks to that choice, which freed up more money, thousands of athletes got to attend college for free who otherwise wouldn't have. But now the dollar amounts paid to televise football and men's basketball at the highest levels have increased exponentially. So have the salaries of coaches, athletic directors and NCAA officials. So have the expenditures on stadiums, JumboTrons and weight rooms. The only thing that hasn't changed is the salary for the athlete, who still gets tuition, room and board.

 

As NCAA officials and university presidents take a long look in the mirror in the wake of the Miami debacle, they need to consider their real goals. I've been an advocate of the Olympic model, which wouldn't cost the schools an additional penny. Would allowing the famous few to cash in really affect competitive balance? (It wouldn't. Check the Rivals rankings. The wealthiest schools already get the top recruits.) Or would it provide a more workable system that still allows athletes in less popular sports to get a free education while also allowing the ones who bring in the real money to get a piece of the pie?

 

Because if the past week has taught us anything, it's that the current model is irretrievably broken. The NCAA should be making commercials about Bauman, not forcing Minnesota to threaten his scholarship. But that's the problem with a bloated bureaucracy that exists to defend a concept that was flawed from the start. When the NCAA's rules screw the Joel Baumans so the Johnny Manziels can't get what they already deserve, it's time to find another way.

 

This is whats wrong with the NCAA.

Edited February 21, 2013 by StrangeSox