Soxbadger Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:04 PM) So your example that you decided to post when we are discussing kids being screwed or not by the system and losing potential millions because he was forced to stay in school was a player who chose to stay in school, got drafted 12th overall, and banked $12 million. Did I say he was being screwed? Did I say it was an example of being screwed? No. I was using him as an example of an injury working out, to show that even in that situation I dont think he made the right decision. It was very specific and I had to use an example of a player who chose to stay and got injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:01 PM) How is that any different than college athletics today? ^^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:06 PM) Did I say he was being screwed? Did I say it was an example of being screwed? No. I was using him as an example of an injury working out, to show that even in that situation I dont think he made the right decision. It was very specific and I had to use an example of a player who chose to stay and got injured. It makes it completely pointless to post what you did when making your argument. On the contrary, it shows (just like with Noel who will easily still go top 5 next year), that if a player who has tremendous upside gets hurt in college, a team will still draft him based on that upside even if he gets injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:01 PM) How is that any different than college athletics today? Oh I agree, that's why college football is awful. Basketball is still an outlier though. Every decade you have a handful of mid-level teams that come out of no where and despite the money/facility difference, can still recruit well and be succesful and build up the program. Butler and VCU are recent examples, Gonzaga going back ten years or so. But I think it'd get even worse, and again, we're forgetting that college sports would basically become football and basketball and perhaps a fringe sport like baseball IF the program is good enough for it. Otherwise the school wouldn't have any money to fund those sports. Oh, and then schools get sued for violating Title IX when they get rid of all of their womens programs. So yeah, giant snowball. Edited February 14, 2013 by Jenksismybitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Guys have alternatives to going to college, kids just don't use them. A bunch of people mentioned Europe. Granted there are a bunch of reasons not to do it, but it's an option that has been done. Brandon Jennings chose to go to Europe for a year because he didn't qualify at Arizona. He ended up as the 10th pick in the draft. There was actually a high school JUNIOR named Jeremy Tyler that went this route and was later drafted in the second round. However, here's a more pertinent one: the D-League DOES allow high schoolers. Latavious Williams didn't qualify at Memphis and went straight to the D-League. He was picked in the second round of the NBA draft the following year. So they're not 100% "forced" to go to college, but it's the most popular choice for a variety of reasons. Especially with the D-League, I would imagine it's because there's far less fame and prestige involved than if you're playing for Kentucky, possibly a less profitable alternative too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:08 PM) It makes it completely pointless to post what you did when making your argument. On the contrary, it shows (just like with Noel who will easily still go top 5 next year), that if a player who has tremendous upside gets hurt in college, a team will still draft him based on that upside even if he gets injured. No it makes absolute sense if you actually understand the argument. You are looking at things from "prepare for the best, dont worry about the worst." I am looking at things from "prepare for the worst, hope for the best." Just because Lee Evans worked out, doesnt mean that another player will. That is the point. The point is that even when a player voluntarily makes the decision to stay, it could still be a dumb decision. But at least in Lee Evans scenario, he had the option to make his dumb decision. That is the point, that these kids/players deserve the option to make mistakes. That they shouldnt be forced into a position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 yeah I guess I don't really have an issue with the NBA's rule to protect themselves for their own dumb GM's, I have a problem with the NCAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:09 PM) Oh I agree, that's why college football is awful. Basketball is still an outlier though. Every decade you have a handful of mid-level teams that come out of no where and despite the money/facility difference, can still recruit well and be succesful and build up the program. Butler and VCU are recent examples, Gonzaga going back ten years or so. But I think it'd get even worse, and again, we're forgetting that college sports would basically become football and basketball and perhaps a fringe sport like baseball IF the program is good enough for it. Otherwise the school wouldn't have any money to fund those sports. Oh, and then schools get sued for violating Title IX when they get rid of all of their womens programs. So yeah, giant snowball. Football teams would have a budget, just as they do now. Athletes could be compensated from that budget without touching the funding for other sports. Or you could allow boosters to do it, which would also leave the other programs untouched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:09 PM) Oh I agree, that's why college football is awful. Basketball is still an outlier though. Every decade you have a handful of mid-level teams that come out of no where and despite the money/facility difference, can still recruit well and be succesful and build up the program. Butler and VCU are recent examples, Gonzaga going back ten years or so. But I think it'd get even worse, and again, we're forgetting that college sports would basically become football and basketball and perhaps a fringe sport like baseball IF the program is good enough for it. Otherwise the school wouldn't have any money to fund those sports. Oh, and then schools get sued for violating Title IX when they get rid of all of their womens programs. So yeah, giant snowball. Jenks, Its already this way. Wisconsin has no baseball program because it has a Hockey program. I think the best way to prevent this is to allow kids to go to the NBA at 18. Then you can have really strict NCAA rules about payments etc, because you can argue that the kid chose to. The problem is the NCAA doesnt even really want to enforce their rules. They just want to have some semblance of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:12 PM) yeah I guess I don't really have an issue with the NBA's rule to protect themselves for their own dumb GM's, I have a problem with the NCAA. The problem is both of them working in concert. Both the NCAA and NBA want the best players in the NCAA getting as little money as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I dunno, does the NBA really care if NCAA athletes are allowed to receive compensation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:06 PM) The coaches couldn't generate s*** without the players on the field, who get nothing. Why should one side be allowed to make millions of dollars while the other side is forbidden from making a single penny? I posted an article that had several proposals a couple of posts up. But what mid-level school has a chance to compete with the bigger schools now? The best schools with the best (highly paid!) coaches and best facilities get the best recruits as it is. Picking NW and Illinois was a bad example, I'm sure a ton of NW alums have deep pockets. There are other ways of compensating student athletes for the billions in revenue they generate besides "anything goes! hookers and blow all around!" How many D-rose college jerseys were sold the year he played? Why shouldn't he receive anything from the people that are making money by printing his name on a jersey and selling it for $50+ a piece? The fallacy of your argument is that players get "nothing." They get a marketing hype machine for free. They get publicity for free. They get the opportunity to play on a national stage, for free. Me being a baller on a recreational league court doesn't mean crap if I can't market myself to the world and scouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:11 PM) No it makes absolute sense if you actually understand the argument. Yes, clearly this is my fault and it's not the fact that your argument sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:14 PM) Both the NCAA and NBA want the best players in the NCAA getting as little money as possible. The NBA wouldn't care one bit if the NCAA decided to pay players - they just want to ensure their best possible on-court product for marketing, ratings, and attendance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Yes your very clever "I want the NBA to be good so I dont care what happens to people as long as I get a good NBA product" is such a mighty argument that I am not sure how I can respond. Come on now, you just are taking the most selfish perspective possible, even though we both know that if you were 18 and projected to be the #1 pick, youd be furious that you couldnt get drafted and would have to wait a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:15 PM) The fallacy of your argument is that players get "nothing." They get a marketing hype machine for free. They get publicity for free. They get the opportunity to play on a national stage, for free. Me being a baller on a recreational league court doesn't mean crap if I can't market myself to the world and scouts. That "marketing hype machine" only exists because said machine is making $$$$ off of these athletes, $$$$ which the athletes get none of. Why should various entities get to make a bunch of money by selling jerseys with my name on it and TV and radio contracts to watch me play while I can't even get a free lunch from my (millionaire) coach? (BTW being wrong about a premise isn't a fallacy, it's just being wrong /pedantry) Edited February 14, 2013 by StrangeSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) The NBA wouldn't care one bit if the NCAA decided to pay players - they just want to ensure their best possible on-court product for marketing, ratings, and attendance. No the NBA would care. Because they would then have to play NBA players more. If a college kid is making $10mil a season, then a NBA player has to make $10mil +. If LSU is going to pay Shaq $50mil to stay 1 more year, how much does the Magic have to offer to get him to leave? So it could very well impact the NBA salary ranges, which the NBA is trying to deflate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:19 PM) No the NBA would care. Because they would then have to play NBA players more. If a college kid is making $10mil a season, then a NBA player has to make $10mil +. If LSU is going to pay Shaq $50mil to stay 1 more year, how much does the Magic have to offer to get him to leave? So it could very well impact the NBA salary ranges, which the NBA is trying to deflate. How the hell are schools going to be able to pay guys $10 million a year? A lot of them run in the red as it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:17 PM) Yes your very clever "I want the NBA to be good so I dont care what happens to people as long as I get a good NBA product" is such a mighty argument that I am not sure how I can respond. But that's just it and that's how the NBA thinks. It's their private league and they can do with it what they want. You made a point about age discrimination - they are private. There are clubs out there that still don't allow African Americans. The US government age discriminates for the presidency. You can do what you want. The NBA, of course, does not discriminate against black people anymore because they do care about marketing reasons. Sex discrimination is illegal, but the NBA doesn't allow women to play. They have their own set of rules and don't answer to you, to the NCAA, or to Nerlens Noel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:13 PM) Jenks, Its already this way. Wisconsin has no baseball program because it has a Hockey program. I think the best way to prevent this is to allow kids to go to the NBA at 18. Then you can have really strict NCAA rules about payments etc, because you can argue that the kid chose to. The problem is the NCAA doesnt even really want to enforce their rules. They just want to have some semblance of control. Nothing is preventing them from going an alternate route today. But they know that college is the best way to propel themselves into the NBA, even if it's at the "cost" of having to be "just" a college star without the paycheck to match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 You know, it wouldn't even have to be salary from the school or from boosters. You could just let these kids sign endorsement deals like pro athletes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:21 PM) How the hell are schools going to be able to pay guys $10 million a year? A lot of them run in the red as it is... In this fantasy world where NCAA is allowing payment, I presume you can find that type of money. How much is a player like Rose worth to a school for 1 year? It would be interesting if its open season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:21 PM) You know, it wouldn't even have to be salary from the school or from boosters. You could just let these kids sign endorsement deals like pro athletes. That would make the most sense, which of cousre means it's not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:19 PM) No the NBA would care. Because they would then have to play NBA players more. If a college kid is making $10mil a season, then a NBA player has to make $10mil +. If LSU is going to pay Shaq $50mil to stay 1 more year, how much does the Magic have to offer to get him to leave? So it could very well impact the NBA salary ranges, which the NBA is trying to deflate. You are the king of unrealistic examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I just want to say this is a fascinating thread to read, and lets try and keep tempers down if we are gonna argue for many more pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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