Sox trade RP Jeff Soptic for 3B Conor Gillaspie

[knightni]

Morel debate, fairly or not, is what hops into my mind first..just because you went in so hard on that one

Is the opposite of Morel debate ImMorel debate?

[Quin]

So Gillaspie is the Manly Man and Flowers is the Girly Man?

[witesoxfan]

So Gillaspie is the Manly Man and Flowers is the Girly Man?

 

Yes.

[peteward]

He was good in the minors and has had 270 major league at-bats. Does every point really have to be made with tons of exaggeration and hyperbole?

 

Yes he has hit .205 in those 273 at-bats. The 410 at-bat figure was obviously an error in reading the column at baseball reference, but subtracting 137 at-bats still leaves him hitting the same...exactly the same .205.

 

Everyone who is a Sox fan wishes Tyler the best. However, many of us look at his numbers and are not buying into the notion that after 4 years in the big leagues, Flowers will start hitting. I am also concerned about his foibles on the base paths, and his conditioning. He needs to keep himself in the kind of shape that AJ did so he can be durable and dependable throughout the season.

 

While his fate with the Sox plays out one way or another, I'd like to see more of Phegley at catcher.

 

[Quin]

Yes.

 

I never thought I would use this.

 

 

Yes he has hit .205 in those 273 at-bats. The 410 at-bat figure was obviously an error in reading the column at baseball reference, but subtracting 137 at-bats still leaves him hitting the same...exactly the same .205.

 

Everyone who is a Sox fan wishes Tyler the best. However, many of us look at his numbers and are not buying into the notion that after 4 years in the big leagues, Flowers will start hitting. I am also concerned about his foibles on the base paths, and his conditioning. He needs to keep himself in the kind of shape that AJ did so he can be durable and dependable throughout the season.

 

While his fate with the Sox plays out one way or another, I'd like to see more of Phegley at catcher.

 

Because you look at a small sample size but can't be bothered to go back a few pages...

 

Let's recap:

 

-AJ's season wasn't an outlier because he hit 17 one time (8 years ago)

-We should have brought him back because Cubs fans hate him (all baseball fans hate him)

-Tyler Flowers is prone to weight gain because he is tall and big bodied, therefore he will suck (don't you guys remember Frank Thomas?! HE SUCKED BECAUSE HE GAINED WEIGHT!)

-Josh Phegley needs to be considered an option with his career minor league OPS of .685 (DYN-O-MITE!)

-We get to make up arbitrary numbers to defend ourselves (Flowers has 317 PAs and 107 K's; also 12 HR and 33 BB)

-AJ is a clutch hitter (though no numbers are provided to back it up)

-Tyler Flowers will never succeed in clutch situations because he is a girly man (nevermind that he hit a game winning homer last year)

-Tyler Flowers is a GIDP machine (I'd prefer he be a love machine)

-Hector Gimenez and Josh Phegley will destroy Flowers the Girly Man™ in Spring Training

-We can now count stints of 20 PA and 15 PA as full seasons (Flowers the Girly Man™ is a 4 year vet now! PAY HIM)

-Don't have to look through baseball history to see trends (though you can if you'd like)

-AJ hit .300 15 years ago in 13 ABs, so he must be a .300 hitter (but he will never hit a home run)

 

---------

 

I just facepalmed so hard I sniffed someone's butt in China

 

[ScottyDo]

Yes he has hit .205 in those 273 at-bats. The 410 at-bat figure was obviously an error in reading the column at baseball reference, but subtracting 137 at-bats still leaves him hitting the same...exactly the same .205.

 

Everyone who is a Sox fan wishes Tyler the best. However, many of us look at his numbers and are not buying into the notion that after 4 years in the big leagues, Flowers will start hitting. I am also concerned about his foibles on the base paths, and his conditioning. He needs to keep himself in the kind of shape that AJ did so he can be durable and dependable throughout the season.

 

While his fate with the Sox plays out one way or another, I'd like to see more of Phegley at catcher.

Dude. September call-ups don't count as seasons. That's been pointed out but you ignored it. You are really stretching it.

[peteward]

Dude. September call-ups don't count as seasons. That's been pointed out but you ignored it. You are really stretching it.

 

I am not stretching anything, bud.

I do not respond to every comment by every anonymous poster, especially if they lack substance, do not appear to be from a genuine Sox fan or are otherwise rude or mean spirited.

 

The fact is that Flowers has hit for a low average and that has not only been during September call-ups.

Of course, teams that are out of the Division race call up minor league pitching so what information

would a .200 average against that level of pitching tell you?

 

You come off like I am the only Sox fan that is concerned that Flowers may not be able to cut down on his strike-outs, make contact and hit for a decent average given what we have seen from him over time. Or you like to pick straw man arguments with some anonymous "dude." Sorry, I'm not biting.

Carry on.

 

 

Flowers splits

Edited March 1, 2013 by southside_hitman

[Chicago White Sox]

Yes he has hit .205 in those 273 at-bats. The 410 at-bat figure was obviously an error in reading the column at baseball reference, but subtracting 137 at-bats still leaves him hitting the same...exactly the same .205.

 

Everyone who is a Sox fan wishes Tyler the best. However, many of us look at his numbers and are not buying into the notion that after 4 years in the big leagues, Flowers will start hitting. I am also concerned about his foibles on the base paths, and his conditioning. He needs to keep himself in the kind of shape that AJ did so he can be durable and dependable throughout the season.

 

While his fate with the Sox plays out one way or another, I'd like to see more of Phegley at catcher.

You're really basing your expectations of a player on 273 ABs over the course of 4 seasons? Honestly, that's not even enough ABs to count as one full season as a starting catcher. Judging a young player based on sporadic and limited playing time is foolish, especially when that player has serious contact issues. He may not fare better in a starting role, but more times than not, guys who strikeout a lot perform better with consistent playing, at least IMO.

 

No one is saying you can't be concerned about Flowers, but try to use reason and logic in your counter-argument. Point out his 36% K rate last year, which has to improve for him to be a long-term answer at catcher for the Sox. But don't pretend AJ has suddenly found the fountain of youth or that Josh Phegley doesn't suck while at the same time bashing Flowers. Just be more objective in the future and people won't attack you in masses, because right now your argument reaks of bias.

[hogan873]

I am not stretching anything, bud.

I do not respond to every comment by every anonymous poster, especially if they lack substance, do not appear to be from a genuine Sox fan or are otherwise rude or mean spirited.

 

The fact is that Flowers has hit for a low average and that has not only been during September call-ups.

Of course, teams that are out of the Division race call up minor league pitching so what information

would a .200 average against that level of pitching tell you?

 

You come off like I am the only Sox fan that is concerned that Flowers may not be able to cut down on his strike-outs, make contact and hit for a decent average given what we have seen from him over time. Or you like to pick straw man arguments with some anonymous "dude." Sorry, I'm not biting.

Carry on.

 

 

Flowers splits

So, the only pitchers Flowers has faced are September call-ups? Come on. None of us know how Flowers is going to perform with consistent playing time. However, history has shown that a hitter's performance cannot be judged on sporadic opportunities. Flowers' ability to work pitch counts and his power potential point to him being at least somewhat better with consistent at bats. I don't think anyone here is saying Flowers is going to hit .300, but there's a better chance that he hits .250 with 25 HRs than .200 with 200 Ks.

[ScottyDo]

I am not stretching anything, bud.

I do not respond to every comment by every anonymous poster, especially if they lack substance, do not appear to be from a genuine Sox fan or are otherwise rude or mean spirited.

 

The fact is that Flowers has hit for a low average and that has not only been during September call-ups.

Of course, teams that are out of the Division race call up minor league pitching so what information

would a .200 average against that level of pitching tell you?

 

You come off like I am the only Sox fan that is concerned that Flowers may not be able to cut down on his strike-outs, make contact and hit for a decent average given what we have seen from him over time. Or you like to pick straw man arguments with some anonymous "dude." Sorry, I'm not biting.

Carry on.

 

 

Flowers splits

In what way is that a strawman argument? I am attacking the evidence YOU are providing to prove your point. Very directly. That's a regular-man argument.

 

You are certainly not the only Sox fan concerned about Flowers, but your evidence is extremely flawed. You can't take his ~30 at bats from 2009 and 2010 out of the total -- that would be cherry-picking -- but you also can't characterize those unbelievably brief sniffs of the major leagues as "seasons". Every decent prospect in every organization gets the call in September, but you don't call them 3-year vets the first year they finally stick.

[Kyyle23]

I am not stretching anything, bud.

I do not respond to every comment by every anonymous poster, especially if they lack substance, do not appear to be from a genuine Sox fan or are otherwise rude or mean spirited.

 

The fact is that Flowers has hit for a low average and that has not only been during September call-ups.

Of course, teams that are out of the Division race call up minor league pitching so what information

would a .200 average against that level of pitching tell you?

 

You come off like I am the only Sox fan that is concerned that Flowers may not be able to cut down on his strike-outs, make contact and hit for a decent average given what we have seen from him over time. Or you like to pick straw man arguments with some anonymous "dude." Sorry, I'm not biting.

Carry on.

 

 

Flowers splits

 

Your argument is the very definition of stretching it and straw man, "dude". You are telling us that his 273(almost 150 less than you previously stated) major league at bats define him because it happened over 4 seasons, and at the same time telling us that those numbers matter because as a september call up he was only facing other september call ups. Give me a break.

 

Look, you want to say "I dont feel Flowers has a good chance at the major league level because his contact rate has never been that good", fine. Whatever. But dont float these bogus facts at us and then tell us that we are stupid because we dont buy into them and tell you that it is wrong.

[southsider2k5]

Yes he has hit .205 in those 273 at-bats. The 410 at-bat figure was obviously an error in reading the column at baseball reference, but subtracting 137 at-bats still leaves him hitting the same...exactly the same .205.

 

Everyone who is a Sox fan wishes Tyler the best. However, many of us look at his numbers and are not buying into the notion that after 4 years in the big leagues, Flowers will start hitting. I am also concerned about his foibles on the base paths, and his conditioning. He needs to keep himself in the kind of shape that AJ did so he can be durable and dependable throughout the season.

 

While his fate with the Sox plays out one way or another, I'd like to see more of Phegley at catcher.

 

You realize the guy managing our team was probably hitting pretty close to .205 after his first 270 ABs, right? I think he turned out pretty OK.

 

[TaylorStSox]

This thread is so full of lawlz. Thank you, Soxtalk.

 

Flowers will be fine. Everyone's focused on offense in this thread. I'd like to add that AJ was absolutely embarrassing behind the plate last year. He threw more guys out, but struggled at every other part of being a catcher. I certainly don't want him behind the plate. After a couple months, the Rangers won't either.

[witesoxfan]

I am not stretching anything, bud.

I do not respond to every comment by every anonymous poster, especially if they lack substance, do not appear to be from a genuine Sox fan or are otherwise rude or mean spirited.

 

The fact is that Flowers has hit for a low average and that has not only been during September call-ups.

Of course, teams that are out of the Division race call up minor league pitching so what information

would a .200 average against that level of pitching tell you?

 

You come off like I am the only Sox fan that is concerned that Flowers may not be able to cut down on his strike-outs, make contact and hit for a decent average given what we have seen from him over time. Or you like to pick straw man arguments with some anonymous "dude." Sorry, I'm not biting.

Carry on.

 

 

Flowers splits

 

You mean like where, as an obviously pro-Flowers guy, I stated he is absolutely the biggest question mark on this team? In this very thread?

 

There is concern there, and there's certainly potential for him to bust, but there's also potential for him to be an incredibly valuable player, moreso than Pierzynski ever was. Flowers absolutely destroyed minor league pitching and was very good in the second half last year and I'm hopeful that he finally grew acclimated to major league pitching and he will be able to be be a force offensively. I absolutely realize there's a chance he can bust, but at some point in time, you need to let Flowers sink or swim. There really is no better year than this year.

 

And stop using the Phegley argument. He's terrible. Look at his minor league numbers beyond his batting average. He is a bad singles hitter (.260) who doesn't walk a lot, and there are far greater concerns regarding his long-term health than there are Flowers. I like Phegley and think he can make it in this league, but if he is starting for the White Sox at any point this year for an extended period of time, they're in trouble.

[Cali]

I'm way more concerned about a catchers handling of the staff than his offense right now.

 

From everything I've read or heard the Sox pitchers love throwing to Tyler. That's good enough for me. As long as he can block pitches in the dirt, call a good game behind the plate and keep base runners honest, he's good in my book.

 

Flowers is all I need with the bat: Low BA with some good pop. He'll strike out but also walk? With defense? On the cheap? Sign me up.

[The Ginger Kid]

Can't wait to see Flowers get regular AB's day in and day out. I think he's going to lead the league in HR's by catchers. My concern? He's a big dude, hasn't played a full season at C in a while. I hope he doesn't wear out.

[elrockinMT]

You realize the guy managing our team was probably hitting pretty close to .205 after his first 270 ABs, right? I think he turned out pretty OK.

 

And went something like 0-41 also. I think he turned out pretty good for sure. Yes, Tyler strikes out too much, but he was a role player and not getting steady playing time can affect your timing at the plate. I loved AJP and wish he were still here, but Tyler is the catcher now and there is no doubt in my mind that he will work his tail off to improve.

 

[DirtySox]

You mean like where, as an obviously pro-Flowers guy, I stated he is absolutely the biggest question mark on this team? In this very thread?

 

There is concern there, and there's certainly potential for him to bust, but there's also potential for him to be an incredibly valuable player, moreso than Pierzynski ever was. Flowers absolutely destroyed minor league pitching and was very good in the second half last year and I'm hopeful that he finally grew acclimated to major league pitching and he will be able to be be a force offensively. I absolutely realize there's a chance he can bust, but at some point in time, you need to let Flowers sink or swim. There really is no better year than this year.

 

And stop using the Phegley argument. He's terrible. Look at his minor league numbers beyond his batting average. He is a bad singles hitter (.260) who doesn't walk a lot, and there are far greater concerns regarding his long-term health than there are Flowers. I like Phegley and think he can make it in this league, but if he is starting for the White Sox at any point this year for an extended period of time, they're in trouble.

 

Adding to this, Phegley is brutal defensively other than throwing out runners. I'm not sure why anyone would be optimistic about his future with the Sox.

[NorthSideSox72]

Every time you bring this up, you fail to give a reason. Why do you think he's terrible at baseball, as you have said repeatedly? What is your reasoning?

 

Take a look at Flowers' offensive numbers during his minor league career, and compare them to AJ's. At each level along the way, Flowers had an OPS at least 100 points higher. Flowers struck out more, but had much more power and got on base far more often. Flowers had a down year in 2010, his first mostly full year in AAA, but still posted a .768 OPS. AJ also struggled in AAA, putting up a .709 OPS in parts of 3 seasons (much like Flowers was at AAA for parts of 3 seasons, but his OPS at that level was 100+ points higher). Offensively, Flowers' minor league profile looks a lot better than AJ's.

 

When AJ finally got a full time job in the majors, he made a leap, as he got more playing time. Similarly, Flowers started to get better late last year with, again, more playing time.

 

All this is not even to mention that Flowers is, right now, much better defensively than AJ. And that the pitchers like working with Flowers.

 

And, oh yeah, the $7M the Sox saved meant they could acquire Keppinger and Lindstrom, to address significant holes.

 

Let's hear your argument.

*crickets*

 

[southsider2k5]

I'm way more concerned about a catchers handling of the staff than his offense right now.

 

From everything I've read or heard the Sox pitchers love throwing to Tyler. That's good enough for me. As long as he can block pitches in the dirt, call a good game behind the plate and keep base runners honest, he's good in my book.

 

Flowers is all I need with the bat: Low BA with some good pop. He'll strike out but also walk? With defense? On the cheap? Sign me up.

 

Yeah, I really feel like the defensive upgrade is going to outweigh any potential offensive shortfall. My optimistic side has a feeling that Flowers will out OPS AJ this year.

[Quin]

Is this dude serious?

[peteward]

Your argument is the very definition of stretching it and straw man, "dude". You are telling us that his 273(almost 150 less than you previously stated) major league at bats define him because it happened over 4 seasons, and at the same time telling us that those numbers matter because as a september call up he was only facing other september call ups. Give me a break.

Look, you want to say "I dont feel Flowers has a good chance at the major league level because his contact rate has never been that good", fine. Whatever. But dont float these bogus facts at us and then tell us that we are stupid because we dont buy into them and tell you that it is wrong.

 

I never stated that his four season define him and you misquoted me.

I corrected the total at bats he has had over four seasons by 150 but you continue to bring it up as though it makes a difference. It doesn't. I explained that the statistic was misread by me since that number is right under his total at bats at baseball reference.com. But again, it doesn't matter. Flower's batting average still averages out to .205. If you extrapolate his strikeouts over a full season, he would have about 160 Ks and that concerns me. Additionally, I have watched Flowers over the past several years as we all have so my opinions as well as others have been formed over time, not just by a quick review of his poor offensive stats.

 

I have heard all sorts of excuses for his low batting average and those are just fine, but they do not remove the concerns that many Sox fans have. And those concerns are not just based upon poor offense but his durability given his size, his weight and the fact that he has not had a full season behind the plate in the major league.

 

Trying to turn this around or having multiple IDs singling me out as though I just invented this issue is baloney.

It is not up to me or any other Sox fan to prove why we are concerned about relying on Flowers as our starting catcher when it is obvious. The fact that some "think" he will improve and hit over .250 with 25-30 home runs is fine, and I hope that is right.

I am sure thousands of other Sox fans doubt that will happen. Try to accept differing opinions graciously rather than flipping into attack/troll mode.

 

As I have said, I do not acknowledge people who do that and I will not continue to go back and forth to try to get the last word in or to engage people in a worthless, time-consuming, circular argument. In the future, if you want someone to go back and forth with, pick on someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bhawk99]

I never stated that his four season define him and you misquoted me.

I corrected the total at bats he has had over four seasons by 150 but you continue to bring it up as though it makes a difference. It doesn't. I explained that the statistic was misread by me since that number is right under his total at bats at baseball reference.com. But again, it doesn't matter. Flower's batting average still averages out to .205. If you extrapolate his strikeouts over a full season, he would have about 160 Ks and that concerns me. Additionally, I have watched Flowers over the past several years as we all have so my opinions as well as others have been formed over time, not just by a quick review of his poor offensive stats.

 

I have heard all sorts of excuses for his low batting average and those are just fine, but they do not remove the concerns that many Sox fans have. And those concerns are not just based upon poor offense but his durability given his size, his weight and the fact that he has not had a full season behind the plate in the major league.

 

Trying to turn this around or having multiple IDs singling me out as though I just invented this issue is baloney.

It is not up to me or any other Sox fan to prove why we are concerned about relying on Flowers as our starting catcher when it is obvious. The fact that some "think" he will improve and hit over .250 with 25-30 home runs is fine, and I hope that is right.

I am sure thousands of other Sox fans doubt that will happen. Try to accept differing opinions graciously rather than flipping into attack/troll mode.

 

As I have said, I do not acknowledge people who do that and I will not continue to go back and forth to try to get the last word in or to engage people in a worthless, time-consuming, circular argument. In the future, if you want someone to go back and forth with, pick on someone else.

Well said Hitman. I agree with you 100%. I too hope Flowers develops into a .250 hitter with 25 HR's but I am concerned that he will be a .210 hitter with under 20HR's and way to many K's.

 

[Balta1701]

Well said Hitman. I agree with you 100%. I too hope Flowers develops into a .250 hitter with 25 HR's but I am concerned that he will be a .210 hitter with under 20HR's and way to many K's.

Here's the thing...I took a second to actually put those numbers together. If he hits ~.210 with 20 HR's, I gave him about 25 2b (usually his 2b are close to his HR numbers) and ~55 BB in 550 PA's (could be a little low for him), those bad numbers still put him with a .674 OPS.

 

That's not great and yes it's a downgrade from AJ last year, but it's not terrifically bad either. 1/2 the teams in the league got a sub-.700 OPS from their catcher's spot. 8 teams got worse production last year than we'd hope would be worse case scenario for Flowers.

[Reddy]

Try to accept differing opinions graciously rather than flipping into attack/troll mode.

 

As I have said, I do not acknowledge people who do that and I will not continue to go back and forth to try to get the last word in or to engage people in a worthless, time-consuming, circular argument. In the future, if you want someone to go back and forth with, pick on someone else.

 

 

methinks someone may not last too long here...

 

that said - call me crazy, but I have more faith in our scouting department and Rick Hahn than I do in you armchair GMs.