Trade Possibility with Cardinals

[Balta1701]

We'd definitely lose quite a bit defensively and I'm not sure how much we'd really gain offensively. Yes, Alexei sucked last year, but his walk rate completely plummeted and he lost most of his power. I just didn't see anything physically to suggest he's going to be that bad of a player going forward. Worst case scenario, I think he'll rebound with the bat to some extent this year.

We wouldnt' gain enough offensively to offset what we've lost. That means we need to get something legit back in the deal, major league ready, to make it worth our while.

[Marty34]

We wouldnt' gain enough offensively to offset what we've lost. That means we need to get something legit back in the deal, major league ready, to make it worth our while.

 

Getting that contract off the books would be more important than the return.

[Chicago White Sox]

Getting that contract off the books would be more important than the return.

At the expense of punting this season? Do you really think we have no chance to compete this year?

[Marty34]

At the expense of punting this season? Do you really think we have no chance to compete this year?

 

Ramirez isn't the difference between this team "competing" and not "competing". Personally, I think this is a slightly below .500 team. Certainly not in the same class as the Tigers.

[Andy the Clown]

We'd definitely lose quite a bit defensively and I'm not sure how much we'd really gain offensively. Yes, Alexei sucked last year, but his walk rate completely plummeted and he lost most of his power. I just didn't see anything physically to suggest he's going to be that bad of a player going forward. Worst case scenario, I think he'll rebound with the bat to some extent this year.

 

Gillispie >>>>>>> than Alexi offensively.

[Andy the Clown]

Getting that contract off the books would be more important than the return.

 

Absolutely, he has turned into a terrible offensive player, and he is entering the decline phase of his career. He is easily the worst contract on the team.

[Andy the Clown]

Ramirez isn't the difference between this team "competing" and not "competing". Personally, I think this is a slightly below .500 team. Certainly not in the same class as the Tigers.

 

+1

 

You're hitting all the right notes, Marty.

[Lillian]

I agree that the Sox should be not simply be dumping the contract, but looking for something worthwhile in return. My suggestion was one of the Cardinal's many RHP.

[Chicago White Sox]

Ramirez isn't the difference between this team "competing" and not "competing". Personally, I think this is a slightly below .500 team. Certainly not in the same class as the Tigers.

Anything can be the difference between competing and not competing. Everything adds up in the end and if you weaken yourself at SS and proceed to lose the division by a game, guess what? That move is one of the reasons you lost the division.

[Marty34]

Anything can be the difference between competing and not competing. Everything adds up in the end and if you weaken yourself at SS and proceed to lose the division by a game, guess what? That move is one of the reasons you lost the division.

 

Ramirez will not be the SS on the next Sox postseason team.

 

[Lillian]

The scouting report on Sanchez is that he is very good at short or second. That skill translates immediately, and won't take time to develop, as hitting does.

He is supposedly very good at handling the bat, and I'm still not convinced that he couldn't be an effective number 2 hitter, even now.

You have to be impressed with this article:

 

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=2...;vkey=news_milb

 

Anytime you start comparing a player to Roberto Alomar, I'm sold!!!

[Andy the Clown]

The scouting report on Sanchez is that he is very good at short or second. That skill translates immediately, and won't take time to develop, as hitting does.

He is supposedly very good at handling the bat, and I'm still not convinced that he couldn't be an effective number 2 hitter, even now.

You have to be impressed with this article:

 

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=2...;vkey=news_milb

 

Anytime you start comparing a player to Roberto Alomar, I'm sold!!!

 

I mean really, how much worse could he be as a hitter than Alexi? Lexi is now one of the worst offensive players in baseball.

[Marty34]

I mean really, how much worse could he be as a hitter than Alexi? Lexi is now one of the worst offensive players in baseball.

 

I've said before they should put him on waivers and if anyone wants to take that contract let them. It's going to be a long three years waiting for his contract to end.

[Lillian]

Apparently you have never heard of the great Pete Kozma

 

You mean the same Pete Kozma who has produced an OBP of .287 over his last 845 at bats in the Pacific Coast League?

[chitownsportsfan]

I've said before they should put him on waivers and if anyone wants to take that contract let them. It's going to be a long three years waiting for his contract to end.

 

Congrats your post was so ignorant it compelled me to make my first post here in years. The value of a win is about $4 million. The Sox are going to be paying Ramirez 26.5 million over the next 3 years with an AAV of 8.9 million. Even with his career worst year at the plate last year due to the paucity of legit MLB caliber shortstops and his solid glove, bWAR had Ramirez for 2.2 wins and fWAR had him down for 1.8. That means he was basically worth his salary (note he only made 7 million in 2012).

 

I will concede that the arc of Ramirez's career is not promising, but thanks to regression to the mean all the projection systems have Ramirez somewhere around a wOBA of .300, which would add about half a win over his 2012 numbers -- assuming his glove grades out about the same.

 

It's probably fair to project Ramirez for about 7 WAR over the next 3 seasons -- at 4 million per win he'll be making...about exactly what he "should be".

 

The idea that Ramirez's contract is some albatross hanging over the Sox is ludicrous. You'd rather rush a 20 year old to the bigs (and starting his arb clock no less) that projects a worse WAR just so you can jettison a 2 WAR player (aka a solid starter) that is being paid a fair salary.

 

I've held back, but seriously? GTFO with such non-sense.

[caulfield12]

The scouting report on Sanchez is that he is very good at short or second. That skill translates immediately, and won't take time to develop, as hitting does.

He is supposedly very good at handling the bat, and I'm still not convinced that he couldn't be an effective number 2 hitter, even now.

You have to be impressed with this article:

 

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=2...;vkey=news_milb

 

Anytime you start comparing a player to Roberto Alomar, I'm sold!!!

 

 

Alomar and Bill Mazeroski were the two best 2B of all-time. Let's not get carried away with hyperbole.

 

I'll just go back to Brian Anderson in 2006. If we did trade Ramirez, and stuck Carlos Sanchez in that position and the offense was really struggling (not inconceivable that we'll have to rely more on pitching to beat the Tigers), then there would be pressure to send him down if the White Sox were falling behind in the standings.

 

You have to give him one more year...or at least 4 months, to develop with his hitting at the highest levels without all the pressure.

 

Trading Ramirez sends the signal to the team and fanbase that the team has already given up on 2013. In that case, why sign Peavy? It would make ZERO sense.

 

If the team's 15-20 games back at the ASB, sure, go ahead and look at ALL options, including Konerko as well.

 

The only tool Sanchez has right now that is better than Alexei is plate discipline/OBP/making contact, but he's not ready quite yet from a hitting standpoint...if Carlos Sanchez tore up the Arizona Fall League or in spring training, but even then it would be a stretch.

 

Not only that, but Beckham's going to be given his final 3-4 more months (at least) to make a statement that he belongs or he doesn't. But you could still advocate for playing ANGEL Sanchez there instead of forcing Carlos Sanchez up too early and stunting his development.

 

Finally, you're in a position of selling low or close to dumping Alexei. Looking at his career, there's no reason to think he's not due for a hot streak that will elevate his value...there's a greater chance that he will improve offensively, compared to mitigating any downside risk.

 

Not to mention the fact that he has a thin, wiry frame which tends to stand up in your 30's more than someone who's carrying more weight.

Edited March 8, 2013 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

Congrats your post was so ignorant it compelled me to make my first post here in years. The value of a win is about $4 million. The Sox are going to be paying Ramirez 26.5 million over the next 3 years with an AAV of 8.9 million. Even with his career worst year at the plate last year due to the paucity of legit MLB caliber shortstops and his solid glove, bWAR had Ramirez for 2.2 wins and fWAR had him down for 1.8. That means he was basically worth his salary (note he only made 7 million in 2012).

 

I will concede that the arc of Ramirez's career is not promising, but thanks to regression to the mean all the projection systems have Ramirez somewhere around a wOBA of .300, which would add about half a win over his 2012 numbers -- assuming his glove grades out about the same.

 

It's probably fair to project Ramirez for about 7 WAR over the next 3 seasons -- at 4 million per win he'll be making...about exactly what he "should be".

 

The idea that Ramirez's contract is some albatross hanging over the Sox is ludicrous. You'd rather rush a 20 year old to the bigs (and starting his arb clock no less) that projects a worse WAR just so you can jettison a 2 WAR player (aka a solid starter) that is being paid a fair salary.

 

I've held back, but seriously? GTFO with such non-sense.

 

I don't have as much faith in the projection systems as you do. I'd rather have the cash value of Ramirez contract.

[caulfield12]

Congrats your post was so ignorant it compelled me to make my first post here in years. The value of a win is about $4 million. The Sox are going to be paying Ramirez 26.5 million over the next 3 years with an AAV of 8.9 million. Even with his career worst year at the plate last year due to the paucity of legit MLB caliber shortstops and his solid glove, bWAR had Ramirez for 2.2 wins and fWAR had him down for 1.8. That means he was basically worth his salary (note he only made 7 million in 2012).

 

I will concede that the arc of Ramirez's career is not promising, but thanks to regression to the mean all the projection systems have Ramirez somewhere around a wOBA of .300, which would add about half a win over his 2012 numbers -- assuming his glove grades out about the same.

 

It's probably fair to project Ramirez for about 7 WAR over the next 3 seasons -- at 4 million per win he'll be making...about exactly what he "should be".

 

The idea that Ramirez's contract is some albatross hanging over the Sox is ludicrous. You'd rather rush a 20 year old to the bigs (and starting his arb clock no less) that projects a worse WAR just so you can jettison a 2 WAR player (aka a solid starter) that is being paid a fair salary.

 

I've held back, but seriously? GTFO with such non-sense.

 

Agreed, except for the last line, lol.

 

If there are any albatrosses right now, they are Dunn and John Danks, to name just a couple.

Chris Sale easily could become one if he suffers an injury.

 

Rios is still not going to get you anything more than salary relief unless he can prove that the Brett Saberhagen Effect hasn't set in for 2013.

[peteward]

I mean really, how much worse could he be as a hitter than Alexi? Lexi is now one of the worst offensive players in baseball.

 

He makes the plays that some other shortstops like Starlin Castro often boot.

 

 

[chw42]

Absolutely, he has turned into a terrible offensive player, and he is entering the decline phase of his career. He is easily the worst contract on the team.

 

Alexei Ramirez is a worse contract than Adam Dunn?

 

Even in the worst season of his career last year, Alexei had a higher WAR than Adam Dunn.

 

Alexei had nearly a 5 win season in 2011. He doesn't need to be a great hitter to be valuable, because he plays the second most demanding position on the field and plays it really well.

 

He sucked ass last year at the plate, but that's not a guarantee to happen again. Almost all projection systems have him putting up .270/.310/.380, which is perfectly acceptable from a very good fielding SS.

Edited March 8, 2013 by chw42

[ScottyDo]

League average OPS from the SS position was .685 last year, according to fangraphs.

 

Alexei's career OPS is .725. He plays Gold Glove calibre defense at the most important and irreplaceable position on the field.

 

He had a very poor year last year and of course the money didn't match, but he isn't even close to being an albatross on this team. Give me a break.

Edited March 8, 2013 by ScottyDo

[Quin]

Shocker: Lillian wants to get rid of a productive major leaguer for some random minor league player.

[Lillian]

Alomar and Bill Mazeroski were the two best 2B of all-time. Let's not get carried away with hyperbole.

 

I'll just go back to Brian Anderson in 2006. If we did trade Ramirez, and stuck Carlos Sanchez in that position and the offense was really struggling (not inconceivable that we'll have to rely more on pitching to beat the Tigers), then there would be pressure to send him down if the White Sox were falling behind in the standings.

 

You have to give him one more year...or at least 4 months, to develop with his hitting at the highest levels without all the pressure.

 

Trading Ramirez sends the signal to the team and fanbase that the team has already given up on 2013. In that case, why sign Peavy? It would make ZERO sense.

 

If the team's 15-20 games back at the ASB, sure, go ahead and look at ALL options, including Konerko as well.

 

The only tool Sanchez has right now that is better than Alexei is plate discipline/OBP/making contact, but he's not ready quite yet from a hitting standpoint...if Carlos Sanchez tore up the Arizona Fall League or in spring training, but even then it would be a stretch.

 

Not only that, but Beckham's going to be given his final 3-4 more months (at least) to make a statement that he belongs or he doesn't. But you could still advocate for playing ANGEL Sanchez there instead of forcing Carlos Sanchez up too early and stunting his development.

 

Finally, you're in a position of selling low or close to dumping Alexei. Looking at his career, there's no reason to think he's not due for a hot streak that will elevate his value...there's a greater chance that he will improve offensively, compared to mitigating any downside risk.

 

Not to mention the fact that he has a thin, wiry frame which tends to stand up in your 30's more than someone who's carrying more weight.

 

It may be hyperbole, but it's not my hyperbole. That is what the Sanchez' manager told K.W. He doesn't have to be Roberto Alomar to

represent an improvement, considering the money the Sox are now spending on their SS.

 

Look, I'm not saying that Alexei is terrible. I just don't think that he is a $10 million a year SS, and if they could get something of value for him, it seems to make sense to explore the possiblities, especially when they have a very promising young replacement like Sanchez.

If the Sox can't get anything of value, or if they don't think that Sanchez is ready, then perhaps it would be better to wait, and hope for a rebound season from Alexei. However, I agree with Marty, in that I don't see Alexei finishing that contract in Chicago.

[Lillian]

Shocker: Lillian wants to get rid of a productive major leaguer for some random minor league player.

 

Like a few others on this board, I throw up for discussion many ideas. However, I don't think that I've called for the dumping of a lot

of "productive major leaguers for random minor league players".

 

"Productive" is one thing, but a $10 million a year productive is quite another. Moreover, Sanchez is not some "random minor leaguer". He is the Sox fourth best prospect. Although your remark was in teal, was it really called for?

Edited March 8, 2013 by Lillian

[LittleHurt05]

You mean the same Pete Kozma who has produced an OBP of .287 over his last 845 at bats in the Pacific Coast League?

 

The same Pete Kozma with a career MLB OPS of .878. The minor leagues just bored him, he's a scrappy legend!