Balta1701 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 06:36 PM) A team would rather pay Drew $9.5M than trade for Ramirez and pay him $27M. No, the White Sox simply won't give up an underpriced shortstop because they're trying to compete. How much do you think the Red Sox are going to spend on their SS position the next 2 years? They're going to spend more than thatn $27 million if they want to fill that hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 05:36 PM) A team would rather pay Drew $9.5M than trade for Ramirez and pay him $27M. Not really, no. That means they would be more likely to trade for a guy that can play for three years, and is locked a fairly decent contract at a position that has large amounts of scarcity at the major league level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 05:36 PM) A team would rather pay Drew $9.5M than trade for Ramirez and pay him $27M. That is assuming that the White Sox attempted to trade him to the Red Sox and the Red Sox said no and then went on to sign Drew. That is quite a leap in logic. Just because you want the White Sox to trade Ramirez does not mean the White Sox want to trade Ramirez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 05:36 PM) A team would rather pay Drew $9.5M than trade for Ramirez and pay him $27M. You can't be serious, Marty. You can't keep referring to $27m like it's over one year. They have to pay a SS for the next two years too, whether or not it's Drew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 06:02 PM) You can't be serious, Marty. You can't keep referring to $27m like it's over one year. They have to pay a SS for the next two years too, whether or not it's Drew. If Drew and Ramirez both continue to decline would you rather be obligated to pay Ramirez $20M over 2014 and 2015 or Drew $0 over the same time frame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 06:53 PM) If Drew and Ramirez both continue to decline would you rather be obligated to pay Ramirez $20M over 2014 and 2015 or Drew $0 over the same time frame? If he doesn't would you rather be looking for another SS with a market shortage have one signed at a discount? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 06:53 PM) If Drew and Ramirez both continue to decline would you rather be obligated to pay Ramirez $20M over 2014 and 2015 or Drew $0 over the same time frame? Ramirez is still a top-notch defensive player, yet you continue to act like he's not. I get the concern about having too many low OBP batters in our lineup, but that doesn't mean that Ramirez doesn't have value as a plus defensive player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian26 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 If Drew and Ramirez both continue to decline would you rather be obligated to pay Ramirez $20M over 2014 and 2015 or Drew $0 over the same time frame? What??? Is this guy for real? And he's one of the "insiders" around here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 06:58 PM) If he doesn't would you rather be looking for another SS with a market shortage have one signed at a discount? It's a chance I would take given I don't think the Sox will be contenders in 2014. Or at the very best, I don't think the difference between Ramirez and his replacement will keep the Sox from contending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 07:15 PM) Ramirez is still a top-notch defensive player, yet you continue to act like he's not. I get the concern about having too many low OBP batters in our lineup, but that doesn't mean that Ramirez doesn't have value as a plus defensive player. We view where the Sox are at differently. I don't think they're a contender so I'd rather not be locked in to a 30+ y.o. shortstop for $27M who may be in decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 07:42 PM) We view where the Sox are at differently. I don't think they're a contender so I'd rather not be locked in to a 30+ y.o. shortstop for $27M who may be in decline. That's fine, but you're arguing he has no value across the league. That is what everyone is getting worked up about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 07:45 PM) That's fine, but you're arguing he has no value across the league. That is what everyone is getting worked up about. It's an argument you kind of agreed with by saying Boston would have taken on his contract, but probably not give much in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 06:53 PM) If Drew and Ramirez both continue to decline would you rather be obligated to pay Ramirez $20M over 2014 and 2015 or Drew $0 over the same time frame? QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 06:58 PM) If he doesn't would you rather be looking for another SS with a market shortage have one signed at a discount? This^ Ramirez is an above average SS. They cost more than $7m on the market. If you have one year of Drew for $9m, you have to pay market price for a SS the next tw years too, which is more than $7m. I don't understand how you don't get this. Here's another way to put it: Over Alexei's five year career, he's been worth 14.3 WAR, which averages out to be ~2.9 WAR per season. Over the past several seasons, the average price paid on the open market per WAR has been about $5m. So, an average season by Alexei Ramirez (2.9 WAR) would be worth $14.5m on the open market. You can argue whether or not he's worth that much, but the fact of the matter is that on the free agent market, that's what a 3-win player has been going for. So if you have a 3-win player for $7m a year, you have substantial surplus value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 07:50 PM) It's an argument you kind of agreed with by saying Boston would have taken on his contract, but probably not give much in return. Right now, coming off the season he had offensively, I don't think they'd give up much for him. However, that doesn't mean Boston wouldn't give us a low level pitching prospect or two for him and assume his entire contract. Buying low and assuming some financial risk if often a smart move. KW did it multiple and more often than not it worked out well. Let's just say this, if Alexei gets back to where he was from 2009 to 2011 a lot of teams will wish they made a play for him, although I doubt the Sox have any interest in moving him given how valuable his defense is to our pitching staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 If 80 games of Stephen Drew and a .650 ops is worth $9.5 million, isn't 150 games of alexei and a .675 ops worth $16 million? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 07:33 PM) It's a chance I would take given I don't think the Sox will be contenders in 2014. Or at the very best, I don't think the difference between Ramirez and his replacement will keep the Sox from contending. You were talking about someone else acquiring Ramirez. They would have more need for a SS than the Sox would if they were looking to get him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 08:02 PM) Let's just say this, if Alexei gets back to where he was from 2009 to 2011 a lot of teams will wish they made a play for him, although I doubt the Sox have any interest in moving him given how valuable his defense is to our pitching staff. Fair enough. I hope he does return to the 715+ OPS player he has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 This whole logic is predicated on eitehr Carlos Sanchez or Gordon Beckham playing SS at the same value or level as Ramirez over those next three years. If they can't play, and you have to replace him externally, then the entire case becomes moot....we've sold a player for below market value before waiting on a rebound and we have to go back into the FA market or trade market and pay a Nick Swisher for Gio/DeLosSantos/Sweeney price. So we'd either end up gutting our minor league system again or paying even more money to a new SS, in the same way we overpaid for Dunn because we didn't have a LH-hitting equivalent in the minors to replace Thome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max power Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 07:33 PM) It's a chance I would take given I don't think the Sox will be contenders in 2014. Or at the very best, I don't think the difference between Ramirez and his replacement will keep the Sox from contending. I think i am going to utilize the ignore function for the fist time ever. You have no idea who is even on this team or what happened in an entire year of baseball throughout the entire organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (MAX @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 09:39 PM) I think i am going to utilize the ignore function for the fist time ever. You have no idea who is even on this team or what happened in an entire year of baseball throughout the entire organization. You can ignore me, but do you have to announce it? It hurts my ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) So basically, who do you want to keep, besides Konerko? Chris Sale? Why not trade him too, as he just signed an extremely team-friendly contract, before he gets injured? By the time that the team has been rebuilt to your liking, Sale will probably be injured or his salary will be too high for your tastes. Is there ANYONE IN THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION you actually like and want to keep around for 2014 and 2015? Who are you going to build around? Oh, that's right, the solution was to go out and pay huge money to Josh Hamilton and Greinke. Okay. And, since every scout in baseball agrees with your assessment that Viciedo won't make any continued progress at all as a hitter or fielder, we can't trade him for BJ Upton, either. Edited March 16, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 10:11 PM) So basically, who do you want to keep, besides Konerko? Chris Sale? Why not trade him too, as he just signed an extremely team-friendly contract, before he gets injured? By the time that the team has been rebuilt to your liking, Sale will probably be injured or his salary will be too high for your tastes. Is there ANYONE IN THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION you actually like and want to keep around for 2014 and 2015? Who are you going to build around? Oh, that's right, the solution was to go out and pay huge money to Josh Hamilton and Greinke. Okay. And, since every scout in baseball agrees with your assessment that Viciedo won't make any continued progress at all as a hitter or fielder, we can't trade him for BJ Upton, either. Uh oh. Caulfield mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 15, 2013 -> 08:59 PM) This whole logic is predicated on eitehr Carlos Sanchez or Gordon Beckham playing SS at the same value or level as Ramirez over those next three years. If they can't play, and you have to replace him externally, then the entire case becomes moot....we've sold a player for below market value before waiting on a rebound and we have to go back into the FA market or trade market and pay a Nick Swisher for Gio/DeLosSantos/Sweeney price. So we'd either end up gutting our minor league system again or paying even more money to a new SS, in the same way we overpaid for Dunn because we didn't have a LH-hitting equivalent in the minors to replace Thome. Nick Swisher was sold earlier than he normally would have because of personality conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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