Alexei called most underrated SS in AL

[Marty34]

I've given up on thinking that age matters for PK. I expect him not to be worthless for half the season and spend virtually the whole season approaching at bats like Juan Pierre. What he might lose to age (get slower?), I think he gains with a fancy new wrist. He'll also be seeing more time at DH this year which would help ameliorate some concerns about his age.

 

37 y.o. players get hurt, decline. I can see the early May newspaper stories now about how Konerko is defying his age then looking at his year in September and say he really didn't.

 

[Marty34]

That is two straight. His 2009 OPS was .723, which means 2010 was up, not down.

 

You're right, three out of four.

[Steve9347]

Please explain, using some facts, how Ramirez has declined 4 straight seasons.

I am busy at work and didn't get to this ASAP.

 

By OPS three straight.

 

2010: 744

2011: 727

2012: 651

But thankfully Marty has access to that new-fangled Google website.

 

And that's not just a decline - it's a DRASTIC decline.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Steve9347

[caulfield12]

What has given anyone reason to believe that Beckham has turned the corner?

[caulfield12]

I am busy at work and didn't get to this ASAP.

 

 

But thankfully Marty has access to that new-fangled Google website.

 

And that's not just a decline - it's a DRASTIC decline.

 

 

Look at it month by month.

 

He showed tremendous improvement after the first two atrocious months....then tailed off with the rest of the offense in September.

 

If he was declining based on age, his first half would have been strong and he would have faded from June-September, like Rios in 2010, but that was certainly not the case. Nor was that kind of season indicative of any type of future performance for Rios, other than his weird "bad year/good year" thing repeating itself.

 

How many AL shortstops drove in 70+ runs hitting from the bottom 3 of the order for more than half the season?

 

I bet the answer to that is 0.

[Leonard Zelig]

I am busy at work and didn't get to this ASAP.

 

 

But thankfully Marty has access to that new-fangled Google website.

 

And that's not just a decline - it's a DRASTIC decline.

 

Sorry, that doesn't fit your claim of 4 straight years of decline. I will wait for some numbers that do.

[Steve9347]

Sorry, that doesn't fit your claim of 4 straight years of decline. I will wait for some numbers that do.

My apologies. How about 4 straight years he has failed to match his rookie season, with drastic decline over the past three.

 

The f***. He had an OPS of .650 last year and people try to say "oh, well, if you ignore the first three months... and the last month... he was good!". Yeah, that's half the f***ing season, and every game counts.

 

God, the desire to phallate Ramirez around here because of a good glove is ridiculous. The guy has been increasingly disappointing, but my apologies for saying 4 years of straight decline. Let's just look at the overall numbers.

 

OPS by Year

.792

.723

.744

.727

.651

 

Dude hit 140 OPS points below his rookie season. Dude has 711 OPS over the last four years. Dude's also 32 this year. Yup, guys leaving their prime tend to improve!

 

But don't worry! He's pretty good for an AL shortstop! Oh, wait. Alexei ranked 10th out of 12 AL starting shortstops last year that qualified for the batting title, and 17th overall out of 20 that qualified for the batting title across all of baseball.

 

f*cking statistics of f*cking shortstops ranked by OPS 2012

 

But keep telling me that he's the "best shortstop in the AL" or "underrated". I hope that these numbers satisfy your urge and were worth the wait. Alexei Ramirez sucks, and RBI are not a statistic to tell anyone otherwise. Imagine if there were a productive player in that slot - how many runs would have been knocked across the plate.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Steve9347

[Marty34]

Sorry, that doesn't fit your claim of 4 straight years of decline. I will wait for some numbers that do.

 

Owing him $27M over the next three years when his OPS has been in decline three of the last four years is not a good spot to be in. Some of his batter comps through age 30 on Baseball Reference are Pat Meares, Jason Bartlet, Julio Lugo, and Mark Ellis. Scary.

[ScottyDo]

The four straight years of decline are accurate if you consider 2008 to be the baseline value (his highest OPS at .792) against which each other year is compared.

 

If you campare year-over-year OPS, Alexei has declined in two straight years, not four.

 

Either way, a career OPS graph has a decidedly downward slope

[Leonard Zelig]

My apologies. How about 4 straight years he has failed to match his rookie season, with drastic decline over the past three.

 

The f***. He had an OPS of .650 last year and people try to say "oh, well, if you ignore the first three months... and the last month... he was good!". Yeah, that's half the f***ing season, and every game counts.

 

God, the desire to phallate Ramirez around here because of a good glove is ridiculous. The guy has been increasingly disappointing, but my apologies for saying 4 years of straight decline. Let's just look at the overall numbers.

 

OPS by Year

.792

.723

.744

.727

.651

 

Dude hit 140 OPS points below his rookie season. Dude has 711 OPS over the last four years. Dude's also 32 this year. Yup, guys leaving their prime tend to improve!

 

But don't worry! He's pretty good for an AL shortstop! Oh, wait. Alexei ranked 10th out of 12 AL starting shortstops last year that qualified for the batting title, and 17th overall out of 20 that qualified for the batting title across all of baseball.

 

f*cking statistics of f*cking shortstops ranked by OPS 2012

 

But keep telling me that he's the "best shortstop in the AL" or "underrated". I hope that these numbers satisfy your urge and were worth the wait. Alexei Ramirez sucks, and RBI are not a statistic to tell anyone otherwise. Imagine if there were a productive player in that slot - how many runs would have been knocked across the plate.

 

LOL. Aren't you the guy who likes to bring up reading comprehension? I did not say any of that stuff about him and I didn't see anybody else claim that either.

You made a statement and it wasn't true.

 

God damn stats always mess with the actual truth

[caulfield12]

What gives ANYONE a right to believe that Carlos Sanchez is going to put up over a 700 OPS?

 

He might never do that in a single major league season....so we're campaigning to dump Alexei Ramirez, save a little bit of money that may or may not be reinvested in the future, and then what? For salary relief? And that type of trade has worked so well for the White Sox WHEN???

 

We're going to just give up on the 2013 season before it even begins?

 

If we accept this hypothesis about Ramirez, then you also have to believe that Beckham will never return to 2009 form, Flowers is likely to flop and that Dunn/Konerko/Rios/DeAza are well past their prime or past their prime and won't do anything but go downhill.

 

If that's the belief of the organization, then why in God's name would they have re-signed Peavy, signed Danks, extended Chris Sale and kept Crain/Thornton and added Lindstrom?

 

 

You can just see the future. CUE fans complaining about Ramirez being better than Carlos Sanchez defensively and at least being able to put up 15-18 homers a season and 70+ RBI's.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2013 by caulfield12

[Steve9347]

If we accept this hypothesis about Ramirez, then you also have to believe that Beckham will never return to 2009 form, Flowers is likely to flop and that Dunn/Konerko/Rios/DeAza are well past their prime or past their prime and won't do anything but go downhill.

This is actually about right - save De Aza. He should be ok.

[caulfield12]

This is actually about right - save De Aza. He should be ok.

 

 

Except for the fact that Latin players, especially speed-based ones, have been playing professionally since they were 16 and often times before that due to lying about their ages in order to sign quickly and get money to their families and agents.

 

So you get the Pods/Chone Figgins/Juan Pierre falling off a cliff in their early 30's due to the wear and tear of playing so much....and DeAza has definitely had more than his share of injuries, including the 2012 season.

 

Meaning you can't expect him to ever return to how good he was in 2011.

[ptatc]

My apologies. How about 4 straight years he has failed to match his rookie season, with drastic decline over the past three.

 

The f***. He had an OPS of .650 last year and people try to say "oh, well, if you ignore the first three months... and the last month... he was good!". Yeah, that's half the f***ing season, and every game counts.

 

God, the desire to phallate Ramirez around here because of a good glove is ridiculous. The guy has been increasingly disappointing, but my apologies for saying 4 years of straight decline. Let's just look at the overall numbers.

 

OPS by Year

.792

.723

.744

.727

.651

 

Dude hit 140 OPS points below his rookie season. Dude has 711 OPS over the last four years. Dude's also 32 this year. Yup, guys leaving their prime tend to improve!

 

But don't worry! He's pretty good for an AL shortstop! Oh, wait. Alexei ranked 10th out of 12 AL starting shortstops last year that qualified for the batting title, and 17th overall out of 20 that qualified for the batting title across all of baseball.

 

f*cking statistics of f*cking shortstops ranked by OPS 2012

 

But keep telling me that he's the "best shortstop in the AL" or "underrated". I hope that these numbers satisfy your urge and were worth the wait. Alexei Ramirez sucks, and RBI are not a statistic to tell anyone otherwise. Imagine if there were a productive player in that slot - how many runs would have been knocked across the plate.

I disagree with your assessment, somewhat. This team is going to live or die by pitching and defense. For this team his defensive his well worth his poor offense. Replacing one player in this offensive will not help as much as replacing the defense will hurt the team.

[Chicago White Sox]

Lol...this is the problem with statistics. You can tell any story you want. When people start using three years of data to claim a three year trend, you know there is an issue with their logic.

 

I look at those stats and see a SS who is a .720 to .725 OPS player. His first year and this past season look like obvious outliers to me.

 

Having said that, it's definitely possible 2012 represents the player Alexei will be going forward. However, you can't use his numbers from 2009 to 2011 to draw that conclusion or to claim he's been trending downward. He was within 20 points of OPS in all three of those years, which represents extremely normal levels of fluctuation. The only argument you can make is that 2012 represents the new Alexei.

[Marty34]

I disagree with your assessment, somewhat. This team is going to live or die by pitching and defense. For this team his defensive his well worth his poor offense. Replacing one player in this offensive will not help as much as replacing the defense will hurt the team.

 

Is the difference between Ramirez and Sanchez worth $27M over the next 3 years? I say no.

[Jake]

OPS is a nice statistic, it helps me predict how many runs the player will be worth. Except it seems to suggest that Alexei wouldn't drive in >70 RBIs every year when he always does just that.

 

There seems to be wide disagreement about whether Sanchez can play SS defensively at all at the MLB level, nor is there agreement that he's even anything better than average at 2B. If he is just a singles hitter (all he's ever been), I'm not about to displace a guy that will always outvalue him on defense alone and has been one of the most consistent and durable players in the game at the position.

[Chicago White Sox]

Is the difference between Ramirez and Sanchez worth $27M over the next 3 years? I say no.

Maybe not, but that money doesn't help us right now. Something to think about next when we have a better idea of what we have in both players.

[Chicago White Sox]

OPS is a nice statistic, it helps me predict how many runs the player will be worth. Except it seems to suggest that Alexei wouldn't drive in >70 RBIs every year when he always does just that.

 

There seems to be wide disagreement about whether Sanchez can play SS defensively at all at the MLB level, nor is there agreement that he's even anything better than average at 2B. If he is just a singles hitter (all he's ever been), I'm not about to displace a guy that will always outvalue him on defense alone and has been one of the most consistent and durable players in the game at the position.

Everything I've read describes Sanchez as a plus defender at 2B. SS is still a question mark.

[Marty34]

Lol...this is the problem with statistics. You can tell any story you want. When people start using three years of data to claim a three year trend, you know there is an issue with their logic.

 

I look at those stats and see a SS who is a .720 to .725 OPS player. His first year and this past season look like obvious outliers to me.

 

Having said that, it's definitely possible 2012 represents the player Alexei will be going forward. However, you can't use his numbers from 2009 to 2011 to draw that conclusion or to claim he's been trending downward. He was within 20 points of OPS in all three of those years, which represents extremely normal levels of fluctuation. The only argument you can make is that 2012 represents the new Alexei.

 

I don't think it's a $27M risk worth taking given where I see the Sox over the next 2-3 years. Not that it matters as they are stuck with the contract.

[elrockinMT]

What has given anyone reason to believe that Beckham has turned the corner?

 

 

Call it a feeling

[Balta1701]

Is the difference between Ramirez and Sanchez worth $27M over the next 3 years? I say no.

That's not the question.

 

The question really is, is the difference between Sanchez and Beckham worth $15 million over the next 3 years.

 

If Beckham performs this year, and answers that question "Yes", then we can talk about Alexei.

[Marty34]

That's not the question.

 

The question really is, is the difference between Sanchez and Beckham worth $15 million over the next 3 years.

 

If Beckham performs this year, and answers that question "Yes", then we can talk about Alexei.

 

Let's say they have 5 guys (Beckham, Ramirez, Keppinger, Morel, and Sanchez) for second, short, and third in 2014. What would be your optimal alignment? I'd go with Becham at second, Sanchez at short, and Keppinger at third provided that the reports of Sanchez being able to play short are true.

[Balta1701]

Let's say they have 5 guys (Beckham, Ramirez, Keppinger, Morel, and Sanchez) for second, short, and third in 2014. What would be your optimal alignment? I'd go with Becham at second, Sanchez at short, and Keppinger at third provided that the reports of Sanchez being able to play short are true.

You have to tell me what Beckham does this year.

 

If he puts up another .650 OPS, then I will not pay him $5 million+ as a 2nd year arb player to be at 2b next year.

 

If Beckham repeats last year, I will non-tender him or trade him at the end of July this year and let Keppinger, Sanchez, and probably a FA signing or trade candidate fight out for 2b next year.

[Marty34]

You have to tell me what Beckham does this year.

 

That's making it too easy. As of today, what would it be.