Axelrod v Santiago

[Feeky Magee]

As someone who is a bit of an outsider to baseball (second full year of following the sport), I could be talking through my arse here, but I was surprised to see Axelrod handed the role of 5th starter ahead of Santiago. Granted Axelrod's minor league stats are better, but in the majors Santiago has looked comfortably the better pitcher to me. I always thought that given Santiago was stretched out, any delay in Danks' recovery would see him as 5th starter. Is this primarily about Axelrod having the ability to go deeper in games? And therefore saving the bullpen a bit?

[Buehrle>Wood]

Everyone had it Santiago vs. Quintana for the fifth spot. Instead Santiago can't even grab the sixth spot. I don't think anyone likes this move.

[southsider2k5]

Axe had a better spring, and they probably would rather have Santiago stay in the role they want him to be in for the season. It keeps the entire pen stable.

[flavum]

I'd like to see a bit of a 6-man rotation in April while Danks is away. Maybe Santiago can get a few starts in that 20-day stretch if they don't get rained out.

 

My hope is Sale, Peavy, and Floyd can make 18 starts before the break, and 14 starts after the break.

Edited March 28, 2013 by flavum

[witesoxfan]

I really don't mind it. Axelrod is a bit of a smoke and mirrors pitcher, but he's a good pitcher nonetheless, and he was relatively effective as a starter last year.

 

 

[pettie4sox]

What is a smoke and mirrors pitcher?

[Jake]

What is a smoke and mirrors pitcher?

 

Axelrod

[pettie4sox]

Axelrod

 

Emphasis on "what"...

 

 

[witesoxfan]

What is a smoke and mirrors pitcher?

 

Short answer is that he's deceptive, not great stuff but good command

 

----

 

Long answer

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_and_mirrors

 

Gavin Floyd is a mediocre pitcher who gets by because he has great stuff. On a good day, he blows you away with a 94 MPH fastball, a hammer curve, and a change that falls off the table. He has decent control within the strikezone but no command, which is why he tends to give up a lot of home runs. He'll get a curveball up, it'll hang up in the zone, and a hitter will destroy it.

 

Dylan Axelrod can barely touch 90, has a slow, a mediocre slider, and a solid but not great changeup (he can also take a little off the slider and throw a curve instead, but does this rarely). He has good control and good command of the strikezone. He will generally work a hitter into being uncomfortable by alternating fastball and slider and to keep you honest the curveball and change up. He will simply not blow anyone away but can get guys out by forcing ground balls and making guys swing at pitchers' pitches. He too is prone to the long ball because his stuff is not that good.

 

---

 

One more way to think about it

 

 

Gavin Floyd:Dylan Axelrod::Chris Sale:Mark Buehrle

Edited March 28, 2013 by witesoxfan

[CyAcosta41]

What is a smoke and mirrors pitcher?

 

A pitcher whose success is predicated on cunning, guile, deception, location -- or, the "pitcher" part of the pitcher versus thrower continuum.

 

I've been an Axelrod booster since Day #1 with the Sox organ-I-zation. Changing speeds, changing eye levels, hitting spots, and generally making batters feel uncomfortable goes a long way towards pitching success. Talk to anyone who has played any advanced level of baseball (I played "club" at a a Division 1 school back in the stone-age; probably could have played at the D3 level), almost all hitters would rather hit against a guy with good velocity who had little clue about pitching (kind of human pitching machines) versus a highly competitive dude with inferior pure "stuff" who would do anything it takes to get you out. Axelrod has had some excellent starts against some tough hitting lineups in the past. Sure, when he's not on, he'll get rocked -- and big time -- but, overall, he can be an effective inning eating #4 or #5, and every once in a while will throw a gem.

 

That's not to say that I'm not a Santiago fan either. Love him. Love his makeup and love his plus stuff. But, until he gets more consistent with his breaking pitches (including throwing strikes with his freaky scroogie), he's going to give up a lot of home runs. I think the Sox believe that 2013 Axe is a better fit for this rotation and US Comiskular than 2013 Hector.

[witesoxfan]

A pitcher whose success is predicated on cunning, guile, deception, location -- or, the "pitcher" part of the pitcher versus thrower continuum.

 

I've been an Axelrod booster since Day #1 with the Sox organ-I-zation. Changing speeds, changing eye levels, hitting spots, and generally making batters feel uncomfortable goes a long way towards pitching success. Talk to anyone who has played any advanced level of baseball (I played "club" at a a Division 1 school back in the stone-age; probably could have played at the D3 level), almost all hitters would rather hit against a guy with good velocity who had little clue about pitching (kind of human pitching machines) versus a highly competitive dude with inferior pure "stuff" who would do anything it takes to get you out. Axelrod has had some excellent starts against some tough hitting lineups in the past. Sure, when he's not on, he'll get rocked -- and big time -- but, overall, he can be an effective inning eating #4 or #5, and every once in a while will throw a gem.

 

That's not to say that I'm not a Santiago fan either. Love him. Love his makeup and love his plus stuff. But, until he gets more consistent with his breaking pitches (including throwing strikes with his freaky scroogie), he's going to give up a lot of home runs. I think the Sox believe that 2013 Axe is a better fit for this rotation and US Comiskular than 2013 Hector.

 

Wimpy, I love it when you analyze

[justBLAZE]

Robin has said they will use them both depending on matchups.

[The Ultimate Champion]

The surprising thing is that Santiago isn't taking the spot right away, but maybe the Sox are trying to make him "earn" it. With Axelrod you know what you are going to get, and it's not a lot, but he's composed on the mound and doesn't shrink when the game gets tough. The Sox can save options on other players by going with Axelrod over another righty and I think that's probably a factor in the decision too.

 

Also there is the potential of a trade/injury insurance, where if one of the veteran relievers gets hurt or is traded by the time Danks gets back then Axe becomes the long man and Santiago takes the rotation spot permanently. By going with Axelrod Robin may be going with someone he sees as being on the team for most if not all of the season.

[Cali]

Axe had a better spring, and they probably would rather have Santiago stay in the role they want him to be in for the season. It keeps the entire pen stable.

 

Well the role they wanted for him was wrong in the first place. He should start no matter what. In Charlotte or Chicago. Not in the pen.

[Balta1701]

Well the role they wanted for him was wrong in the first place. He should start no matter what. In Charlotte or Chicago. Not in the pen.

This is still correct, but I've basically accepted it won't be happening.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The surprising thing is that Santiago isn't taking the spot right away, but maybe the Sox are trying to make him "earn" it. With Axelrod you know what you are going to get, and it's not a lot, but he's composed on the mound and doesn't shrink when the game gets tough. The Sox can save options on other players by going with Axelrod over another righty and I think that's probably a factor in the decision too.

 

Also there is the potential of a trade/injury insurance, where if one of the veteran relievers gets hurt or is traded by the time Danks gets back then Axe becomes the long man and Santiago takes the rotation spot permanently. By going with Axelrod Robin may be going with someone he sees as being on the team for most if not all of the season.

 

Maybe it's the opposite with Axe, the Sox are trying to figure out just what they have in him. I think they are fully aware of Santiago potential and figure they can always use him in the bullpen and if Axe fails and Danks doesn't come back, they can always fall back on Santiago. Might suck to sacrifice some games to find out what exactly they have in Axe but overall it's best for the organization.

 

If Axe pitches well then he becomes a valuable asset . That makes him more tradeable, makes Floyd more tradeable, makes the Sox long term plans better. He's at the age where they need to know if he can be a big league starter or just another AAAA player. Here is a Sox blog you might not be aware of that makes a case for Axelrod. http://www.grabsomebench.com/2013/march/an...se-why-not.html .I like that Axe pitched in the Frontier League as a member of thE Windy City Flyers. He's made the most of his talent so far and hope he does well.

Edited April 1, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

When's the last time a RH pitcher with an average fastball in the 86-88 MPH range got anything great back in return?

 

If we couldn't get anything for the likes of Ely, Harrell or Humber, we're not going to get much for Axelrod either.

 

 

If you have two great pitchers at the top of the rotation and a very solid 3, you can afford to have Axelrod as your 5th.

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

When's the last time a RH pitcher with an average fastball in the 86-88 MPH range got anything great back in return?

 

If we couldn't get anything for the likes of Ely, Harrell or Humber, we're not going to get much for Axelrod either.

 

 

If you have two great pitchers at the top of the rotation and a very solid 3, you can afford to have Axelrod as your 5th.

You're missing the point. If Axe somehow goes 10-3 with a 3.00 ERA and a WHIP of 1.3 then we have something. Odds of it happening aren't good but he did very well in the last 2 levels of the minors and we need as many valuable pieces as we can get if this is also a make or break year for the Sox. We got nothing for Harell because he had no major league track record. Axelrod's ERA in AAA ( 2 stops ,less than 2 full years ) was 2.28 . I doubt Harrell did that well and even if he did he still had no major league track record.

Edited March 31, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ScottyDo]

When's the last time a RH pitcher with an average fastball in the 86-88 MPH range got anything great back in return?

 

If we couldn't get anything for the likes of Ely, Harrell or Humber, we're not going to get much for Axelrod either.

 

 

If you have two great pitchers at the top of the rotation and a very solid 3, you can afford to have Axelrod as your 5th.

Although this is not your point, John Ely was the PTBNL in the Juan Pierre trade, so it's not quite fair to include him in the "got nothing for him" category. And, whether you like Pierre or not, that was a major move.

[caulfield12]

Although this is not your point, John Ely was the PTBNL in the Juan Pierre trade, so it's not quite fair to include him in the "got nothing for him" category. And, whether you like Pierre or not, that was a major move.

 

Because we had to give them SOMETHING.

 

98% of the Pierre trade was them dumping salary and getting rid of him.

[Chicago White Sox]

Because we had to give them SOMETHING.

 

98% of the Pierre trade was them dumping salary and getting rid of him.

Agree. Wasn't Pierre on the Dodgers' bench the season before we acquired him? The move might have been a big move for Ozzie, but I'm pretty sure most people saw it as a salary dump for the Dodgers and a desperation move by the Sox to find a leadoff hitter and get Ozzie some speed.

[Balta1701]

Agree. Wasn't Pierre on the Dodgers' bench the season before we acquired him? The move might have been a big move for Ozzie, but I'm pretty sure most people saw it as a salary dump for the Dodgers and a desperation move by the Sox to find a leadoff hitter and get Ozzie some speed.

Pierre was on their bench but he'd been quite successful the previous season filling in when Manroid had a 50 game suspension. But yeah, at the time, that administration was trying to cut salary due to bankruptcy/divorce proceedings and they had Manroid, Ethier, and Kemp all in the OF.