Is Ventura a good game manager?

[Marty34]

I think it is more then just Robin's fault. Yes, he has made some (a lot) of in game mistakes. There have been many of times I am screaming at my TV "why the f*** are you doing this!!!" I have thrown the remote so many times, that now my dog thinks it is a game, and runs to go fetch it, and brings it back to me. Kind of nice of him if you ask me.

 

But getting into why I think it is more then just Robin's fault. Outside of 2005, a year that every Sox fan will appreciate to the day they die, this Sox team just has been bad. I know they win the division in 2008, but that team had a lot of flaws, and only won because Hahn's son called the coin flip correctly. This is an organizational problem. From top to bottom. I understand we have made some changes, and it can not happen over night, but it seems like they are still attracted to the same, all or nothing, type hitter. I feel this organization is just out to be ok each year, and with some luck (2008), they will make the playoffs, and see what happens from there. That isn't going to work, not when Detroit isn't going anywhere for the next few years, and KC is up can coming. Being ok with hoping for luck will get you in 3rd place every year. Truthfully, I don't care if we finish 0-162 if we don't make the playoffs. What's the difference? A few thousand fans overall in attendance, and a worse draft pick? I know that rebuilding will not draw the casual fan, but those fans don't come up unless we are winning anyway. I would have no problem if we just tore it down, sucked for 5 years, and at least had a plan. I hate to say this, but something like what the Cubs are doing. Will it work for them, or any other team that tries it? Who knows. But what I do know, is this middle of the pack, average team year in and year out is not working, so you might as well try something different. Right now, IMO, the best thing that can happen is we either go on a lucky run, or we tank it. Trade off Rios, Peavy, and any other player that will fetch you something of value in return. Start the process of building a team that can win in a few years, get a top 5 pick this year.

 

I honestly think it is going to get much worse on the field, before it gets better, but if that "much worse" includes the Sox having a new direction on how to build an organization, that is something that I am ok with.

 

Sorry for my little rant, I just hate when we suck, and right now, we suck.

 

The only conclusion I can draw from the Sox being ambiguous about their direction is because they don't want criticism. It's very unfair to the fans, imo. Say this for the Cubs, they've been upfront with their fans about what they are doing.

 

[joeynach]

In this situation, with three batters to try to bring in Gillaspie, your best RBI guy is Ramirez -- BY FAR. He's also had a single on the night. So what does Ventura do? He asks Ramirez to BUNT!????

 

This is a HORRIBLE decision. First, Ramirez is a horrible bunter. I've seen him bunt into a triple play. Second, as mentioned above, Ramirez is the Sox best chance of getting a hit to bring Gillaspie home. What happens? Ramirez pops the bunt up to the catcher, one out. Gimenez grounds to second, easy out. DeAza is out, threat over. Even if Ramirez is successful bunting Gillaspie over, a pulled in infield would have prevented Gimenez's weak grounder from scoring Gillaspie. So a successful bunt was not the answer here. Having Ramirez swing away was the correct move.

 

OMG thank you. RV's bunting decisions are probably some of the worst I have ever seen. While I believe bunting in general, especially in the AL is just giving an out away, its when RV does it that drives me crazy. To me, what he does, is defaults to the "old school" baseball book in crunch times or when an executive decision one way or the other needs to be made. I believe his intuitive knowledge of the game and players around him is what pushes him towards some of these play it by the book moves. As an amateur manager last year I think we saw the same thing from RV and the team in September, he managed too tight, felt very amateur, very unforbidden territory. He was calling for Sac Bunts, steals, and hit and runs probably at a rate 5x as much in Sept than he did most of the regular season. Its 0-1 in the 3rd inning with a power, free swinging lineup and RV is calling for Sac Bunts and such in the 3rd inning, trying to setup a runner on 2nd with 1 out for low contact hitting Adam Dunn or Viciedo. Again, by the book, with no feel for the situation. Pressing, nervous, whatever you want to call it. Either way I didn't see much feel for the game or situation from RV at this point nor did I see it when he decided to make Alexei the world's worst bunter, bunt against Masterson in that 0-0 game in the 8th inning. With Connor on 2nd, he decided to trade taking three shots to get a base hit and get him in, in which he could control the "shots" with a pinch hitter if he chooses, for one attempt at a fly ball sac fly (runner on 3rd with one out) for Gimenez or a pinch hitter. Why on earth would RV or anyone think that getting Connor to 3rd with one out and Hector Giminez (or anyone on his bench) was going to come up and all of a sudden hit a nice long 300+ ft fly ball to score that run when the whole team including Gimenez had hardly hit the ball out of the infield all day on a cold windy day. Again, where is the recognition and connection to the game situation and player tendencies.

 

So basically I agree I dont think he is a very good game manger, and I believe his amateurishness truly has an effect here.

Edited April 21, 2013 by joeynach

[Paint it Black]

I think it is more then just Robin's fault. Yes, he has made some (a lot) of in game mistakes. There have been many of times I am screaming at my TV "why the f*** are you doing this!!!" I have thrown the remote so many times, that now my dog thinks it is a game, and runs to go fetch it, and brings it back to me. Kind of nice of him if you ask me.

 

But getting into why I think it is more then just Robin's fault. Outside of 2005, a year that every Sox fan will appreciate to the day they die, this Sox team just has been bad. I know they win the division in 2008, but that team had a lot of flaws, and only won because Hahn's son called the coin flip correctly. This is an organizational problem. From top to bottom. I understand we have made some changes, and it can not happen over night, but it seems like they are still attracted to the same, all or nothing, type hitter. I feel this organization is just out to be ok each year, and with some luck (2008), they will make the playoffs, and see what happens from there. That isn't going to work, not when Detroit isn't going anywhere for the next few years, and KC is up can coming. Being ok with hoping for luck will get you in 3rd place every year. Truthfully, I don't care if we finish 0-162 if we don't make the playoffs. What's the difference? A few thousand fans overall in attendance, and a worse draft pick? I know that rebuilding will not draw the casual fan, but those fans don't come up unless we are winning anyway. I would have no problem if we just tore it down, sucked for 5 years, and at least had a plan. I hate to say this, but something like what the Cubs are doing. Will it work for them, or any other team that tries it? Who knows. But what I do know, is this middle of the pack, average team year in and year out is not working, so you might as well try something different. Right now, IMO, the best thing that can happen is we either go on a lucky run, or we tank it. Trade off Rios, Peavy, and any other player that will fetch you something of value in return. Start the process of building a team that can win in a few years, get a top 5 pick this year.

 

I honestly think it is going to get much worse on the field, before it gets better, but if that "much worse" includes the Sox having a new direction on how to build an organization, that is something that I am ok with.

 

Sorry for my little rant, I just hate when we suck, and right now, we suck.

 

In short, they're in baseball hell. Not good enough to make the playoffs but not bad enough for higher draft picks / rebuild mode. It's weird. I mean, I was born in 1987 and ever since I can remember (about 1994) this team was in the middle of the pack (outside of a few years better and a few years worse, but you get my point). There is something to be said (good and bad) about consistently being middle of the pack.

 

I wonder if this team financially can't do the full rebuild because 7 people will attend each game.

[Paint it Black]

The only conclusion I can draw from the Sox being ambiguous about their direction is because they don't want criticism. It's very unfair to the fans, imo. Say this for the Cubs, they've been upfront with their fans about what they are doing.

 

I'm probably going to take s*** for this, but I don't think the fan base would get it anyway (hell a lot of Cub fans don't either). Of course the die hards will understand and ultimately stick by this franchise, but I think a large part of the fan base still is pissed about the f***ing white flag trade.

 

I'm pretty envious about what the Cubs are doing, as much as it pains me to say that.

[Marty34]

I wonder if this team financially can't do the full rebuild because 7 people will attend each game.

 

Their payroll would be at least $30M lower in a rebuild and the lease guarantees them something like 1.5M in ticket sales.

[southsider2k5]

I'm probably going to take s*** for this, but I don't think the fan base would get it anyway (hell a lot of Cub fans don't either). Of course the die hards will understand and ultimately stick by this franchise, but I think a large part of the fan base still is pissed about the f***ing white flag trade.

 

I'm pretty envious about what the Cubs are doing, as much as it pains me to say that.

 

Fans still hold white flag against the team, which is exactly why the White Sox can't do a full rebuild. Attendance was down in a season where we were in first place for all of the season except the last week or so. Can you imagine what would happen in a full blown sell off? Sox fans are the ones who have made a full rebuild impossible.

[joeynach]

I wonder if this team financially can't do the full rebuild because 7 people will attend each game.

 

I have tried to make this point in the past. The White Sox are a franchise that understands their fan and revenue base quite well. The cubs can get away with the tear down, stock high draft picks, develop talent, rebuild process, the White Sox can not. Demand for Cubs brand in general is much more inelastic (to performance) than the White Sox. The White Sox are highly dependent upon on field performance in order to drive interest, revenue, tickets, viewership, etc. The Cubs are not. If the White Sox tore it down to rebuild for half a decade you would see Miami Marlin like payroll, attendance, viewership, attention, interest, etc etc. The franchise would essentially become an afterthought in a huge market, so they will never do it, for better or for worse. Its pretty obvious the White Sox value 78-85 win seasons differently than we do as fans. Those are exactly what an earlier poster is talking about, season outlooks that with a little luck turn into 90 win seasons and playoff berths, without, turn into medicore record wise, but successful seasons financially (the Sox made a lot of $$ last year with 85 wins). So they have very little incentive to go all in every year Angels or Dodgers spending style, nor do they have incentive to tear it down and go into the cellar for half a decade. So they middle it, we all know this, it's no secret.

Edited April 21, 2013 by joeynach

[Marty34]

I have tried to make this point in the past. The White Sox are a franchise that understands their fan and revenue base quite well. The cubs can get away with the tear down, stock high draft picks, develop talent, rebuild process, the White Sox can not. Demand for Cubs brand in general is much more inelastic (to performance) than the White Sox. The White Sox are highly dependent upon on field performance in order to drive interest, revenue, tickets, viewership, etc. The Cubs are not. If the White Sox tore it down to rebuild for half a decade you would see Miami Marlin like payroll, attendance, viewership, attention, interest, etc etc. The franchise would essentially become an afterthought in a huge market, so they will never do it, for better or for worse. Its pretty obvious the White Sox value 78-85 win seasons differently than we do as fans. Those are exactly what an earlier poster is talking about, season outlooks that with a little luck turn into 90 win seasons and playoff berths, without, turn into medicore record wise, but successful seasons financially (the Sox made a lot of $$ last year with 85 wins). So they have very little incentive to go all in every year Angels or Dodgers spending style, nor do they have incentive to tear it down and go into the cellar for half a decade. So they middle it, we all know this, it's no secret.

 

I get the distinct impression that people tired of the 78-85 win teams last year. They'd rather see a 70-win team that has promise than whatever is out there now.

[Balta1701]

I get the distinct impression that people tired of the 78-85 win teams last year. They'd rather see a 70-win team that has promise than whatever is out there now.

"They" = "Marty".

[Marty34]

Fans still hold white flag against the team, which is exactly why the White Sox can't do a full rebuild. Attendance was down in a season where we were in first place for all of the season except the last week or so. Can you imagine what would happen in a full blown sell off? Sox fans are the ones who have made a full rebuild impossible.

 

Blaming the fans is silly. The fans didn't hire a minor league director who was actively looking for players who wouldn't make it to the big leagues so that he could embezzle from the organization. Besides a rebuild means a lower payroll which means larger profit. If you want to make the case they aren't going to rebuild because Chairman Reinsdorf is getting along in years and wants to wuin another World Series I wouldn't argue with you.

[Balta1701]

Blaming the fans is silly. The fans didn't hire a minor league director who was actively looking for players who wouldn't make it to the big leagues so that he could embezzle from the organization. Besides a rebuild means a lower payroll which means larger profit. If you want to make the case they aren't going to rebuild because Chairman Reinsdorf is getting along in years and wants to wuin another World Series I wouldn't argue with you.

Not if revenue decreases more. There are substantial costs associated with running the team other than payroll. If you slash payroll by 50%, you don't slash "Total expenses" by 50%.

[Marty34]

Not if revenue decreases more. There are substantial costs associated with running the team other than payroll. If you slash payroll by 50%, you don't slash "Total expenses" by 50%.

 

The White Sox will not lose money with a $70-80M payroll. Nobody went to the games last year and they made $20M on a $100M+ payroll.

[Balta1701]

The White Sox will not lose money with a $70-80M payroll. Nobody went to the games last year and they made $20M on a $100M+ payroll.

How will you avoid further erosion of their ticket and advertising base? 1.96 million isn't nothing. "The Kids can Play" year was 1.34 million in attendance.

[Marty34]

How will you avoid further erosion of their ticket and advertising base? 1.96 million isn't nothing. "The Kids can Play" year was 1.34 million in attendance.

 

They still made money that year.

[Dick Allen]

They still made money that year.

If it is all about the profit, then why wouldn't the team risk less and have a small payroll and do this rebuild for the people who can't take 2 weeks of bad baseball without walking to the ledge. Minimum 4 or 5 years of bad baseball will do nothing but make these people moan some more. The whining on this board has been taken to a new level.

[Marty34]

If it is all about the profit, then why wouldn't the team risk less and have a small payroll and do this rebuild for the people who can't take 2 weeks of bad baseball without walking to the ledge. Minimum 4 or 5 years of bad baseball will do nothing but make these people moan some more. The whining on this board has been taken to a new level.

 

Do the posters on this board want the Sox to win a World Series or maximize profit?

[Dick Allen]

Do the posters on this board want the Sox to win a World Series or maximize profit?

Frankly, there are more than a couple people here who would far rather b**** about the White Sox than watch them win a World Series. As Frank Thomas would say, no doubt about it.

[Cali]

I for one don't really wanna accept the philosophy of being the middle of the pack team that jut hopes they catch lightning in a bottle once every 5-10 years which is what they've been doing for the past 20 years or so.

 

If the choice is complete rebuild, staying in the middle, or turning into the Yankees/Dodgers, I choose rebuild.

 

If they stay in the middle, and change NOTHING my interest in baseball is just going to drop like a rock.

 

Someone is going to have to buy this team for anything to change, either from the current ownership, or afte JR dies and his kids have no interest or whatever the breakdown is for a post-JR regime. I can't take this middle of the road s*** for much longer.

[IlliniKrush]

Having Rios steal 3rd base with 1 out and 2 strikes on Adam Dunn today...not sure where he comes up with that.

[southsider2k5]

I get the distinct impression that people tired of the 78-85 win teams last year. They'd rather see a 70-win team that has promise than whatever is out there now.

 

History shows you are wrong.

[southsider2k5]

Blaming the fans is silly. The fans didn't hire a minor league director who was actively looking for players who wouldn't make it to the big leagues so that he could embezzle from the organization. Besides a rebuild means a lower payroll which means larger profit. If you want to make the case they aren't going to rebuild because Chairman Reinsdorf is getting along in years and wants to wuin another World Series I wouldn't argue with you.

 

Call it silly all you want, but it is true. Sox fans won't stick around for a rebuild, which means it won't happen.

[southsider2k5]

Do the posters on this board want the Sox to win a World Series or maximize profit?

 

Winning a World Series is much harder when you can't keep your good players around because the stadium is empty.

[Marty34]

Call it silly all you want, but it is true. Sox fans won't stick around for a rebuild, which means it won't happen.

 

If they lose 90 games this year and keep the same cast of characters next year do you really foresee ticket sales remaining the same?

[Dick Allen]

If they lose 90 games this year and keep the same cast of characters next year do you really foresee ticket sales remaining the same?

Instead about worrying about them trading guys for middle of the road at best prospects, if you are into rbuilding, you should hope they have all of their ducks in a row for the draft. Soxtalk had a lot of wishes to come true....AJ is gone, Beckham isn't playing, and your biggest wish Viciedo is out. It hasn't translated to more runs and better results thus far.

 

And if they did lose 90, there is about as much chance they come back with the same team as there is Ozzie coming back. Zero.

[Marty34]

Winning a World Series is much harder when you can't keep your good players around because the stadium is empty.

 

The promblem has never been keeping good players it has been about acquiring good players. If Chairman Reinsdorf is not going to pay for free-agents, he needs to spend money on better scouting and development.