Would things be any different under Walker?

[caulfield12]

The Braves weren’t the most surprising victim for (Anibal) Sanchez’s feat. As David O’Brien wrote in Friday’s Atlanta Journal-Constitution about the Braves’ attitude for this season: “They were going to hit home runs. And they didn’t care if they struck out. A lot.”

 

The Braves arrived at Comerica on Friday night leading the majors with 35 homers. They were fifth in the majors in strikeouts. They’d already struck out 16 times twice this season — and they’d won both those games.

 

 

“There’s different ways of scoring runs,” said hitting coach Greg Walker, in his second season with the Braves after 8 1/2 as White Sox hitting coach. “This is what the Atlanta Braves chose to do. And I’ve coached teams like this before, and answered all the questions, and seen what works and what doesn’t work.

 

“Last year we had probably as good a combination of leadoff and No. 2 hitter as there was in baseball (leadoff man Michael Bourn and No. 2 hitter Martin Prado), especially in the first two-thirds of the season. Bourny scuffled down the stretch. We did get a lot of early leads, but we didn’t score any more runs than what we’re doing now. It’s just a different style, and we have the potential to get better in (this style).”

 

...

 

According to Fangraphs, Braves hitters have swung and missed at 11.2 percent of all pitches, the highest percentage in the NL and the second in the majors behind Houston’s 12.6. Twelve teams have swung and missed at 8.6 percent or fewer.

 

Braves hitters have made contact 75.1 percent of the times they’ve swung the bat, the lowest contact rate in the NL and second-lowest in majors ahead the Astros (72.8). Fourteen major league teams were above 80 percent.

 

The Braves’ homer pace projects to 270, six above the record by the 1997 Seattle Mariners.

 

....

 

Walker was hitting coach when the White Sox led the majors with 236 homers in 2006 and 235 in 2008, and set a franchise record with 242 in 2004.

 

But the White Sox also led the American League in sacrifice bunts and bunt hits while hitting 200 homers in their World Series championship season in 2005, and in 2006 they led the league in average with runners in scoring position (.307) while having four players with 30 or more homers.

 

The Braves rank 22nd in the majors with a .223 average with runners in scoring position.

http://www.myajc.com/news/sports/baseball/...btomyajcpremium

 

 

Other than Jeff Keppinger being acquired, have we seen any changes in the Sox approach?

 

We won another game last night largely on the strength of the home run. There's traditionally been a VERY strong correlation between Sox victories and the games in which they homer at least once.

 

Essentially, the Braves are like the current White Sox, with the exception of having the best player in baseball (for the first month) in Justin Upton.

 

Otherwise, not too many differences. Teams based on pitching first, I think the Braves' ERA was leading the NL, in the 2.6 range.

 

Four of our minor league outfielders are leading or close to leading their leagues in strikeouts (Walker, Hawkins and Mitchell....with Thompson not so far behind). Is there evidence at all in the minors of a changing or evolving philosophy, either in drafting or development?

 

Dick Allen is probably right. There's pretty much ZERO appreciable difference between what Walker and Scott Fletcher (assistant hitting coach with the Braves) and Manto are/were doing.

 

In fact, our OBP has actually gotten worse, led downward by the likes of DeAza, Dunn, Keppinger (so far), Ramirez and Viciedo.

 

Have the White Sox simply ended up "rebranding" the same exact model they've been using for the past decade, and now we're calling it "The Will to Win" all of a sudden, but it's still largely homer-based to win games for the Sox, especially at USCF?

 

Is there a clearly-defined, differentiated offensive approach now with the White Sox?

Edited April 27, 2013 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The Braves weren’t the most surprising victim for (Anibal) Sanchez’s feat. As David O’Brien wrote in Friday’s Atlanta Journal-Constitution about the Braves’ attitude for this season: “They were going to hit home runs. And they didn’t care if they struck out. A lot.”

 

The Braves arrived at Comerica on Friday night leading the majors with 35 homers. They were fifth in the majors in strikeouts. They’d already struck out 16 times twice this season — and they’d won both those games.

 

 

“There’s different ways of scoring runs,” said hitting coach Greg Walker, in his second season with the Braves after 8 1/2 as White Sox hitting coach. “This is what the Atlanta Braves chose to do. And I’ve coached teams like this before, and answered all the questions, and seen what works and what doesn’t work.

 

“Last year we had probably as good a combination of leadoff and No. 2 hitter as there was in baseball (leadoff man Michael Bourn and No. 2 hitter Martin Prado), especially in the first two-thirds of the season. Bourny scuffled down the stretch. We did get a lot of early leads, but we didn’t score any more runs than what we’re doing now. It’s just a different style, and we have the potential to get better in (this style).”

 

...

 

According to Fangraphs, Braves hitters have swung and missed at 11.2 percent of all pitches, the highest percentage in the NL and the second in the majors behind Houston’s 12.6. Twelve teams have swung and missed at 8.6 percent or fewer.

 

Braves hitters have made contact 75.1 percent of the times they’ve swung the bat, the lowest contact rate in the NL and second-lowest in majors ahead the Astros (72.8). Fourteen major league teams were above 80 percent.

 

The Braves’ homer pace projects to 270, six above the record by the 1997 Seattle Mariners.

 

....

 

Walker was hitting coach when the White Sox led the majors with 236 homers in 2006 and 235 in 2008, and set a franchise record with 242 in 2004.

 

But the White Sox also led the American League in sacrifice bunts and bunt hits while hitting 200 homers in their World Series championship season in 2005, and in 2006 they led the league in average with runners in scoring position (.307) while having four players with 30 or more homers.

 

The Braves rank 22nd in the majors with a .223 average with runners in scoring position.

http://www.myajc.com/news/sports/baseball/...btomyajcpremium

 

 

Other than Jeff Keppinger being acquired, have we seen any changes in the Sox approach?

 

We won another game last night largely on the strength of the home run. There's traditionally been a VERY strong correlation between Sox victories and the games in which they homer at least once.

 

Essentially, the Braves are like the current White Sox, with the exception of having the best player in baseball (for the first month) in Justin Upton.

 

Otherwise, not too many differences. Teams based on pitching first, I think the Braves' ERA was leading the NL, in the 2.6 range.

 

Four of our minor league outfielders are leading or close to leading their leagues in strikeouts (Walker, Hawkins and Mitchell....with Thompson not so far behind). Is there evidence at all in the minors of a changing or evolving philosophy, either in drafting or development?

 

Dick Allen is probably right. There's pretty much ZERO appreciable difference between what Walker and Scott Fletcher (assistant hitting coach with the Braves) and Manto are/were doing.

 

In fact, our OBP has actually gotten worse, led downward by the likes of DeAza, Dunn, Keppinger (so far), Ramirez and Viciedo.

 

Have the White Sox simply ended up "rebranding" the same exact model they've been using for the past decade, and now we're calling it "The Will to Win" all of a sudden, but it's still largely homer-based to win games for the Sox, especially at USCF?

 

Is there a clearly-defined, differentiated offensive approach now with the White Sox?

 

I think Hahn wants more guys on base in front of our HR hitters. We just know he's got too many of one type but as his regime broadens it will become more clearly defined. If anything maybe Hahn will be more aggressive in this regard since I have no idea what he thought or how strong his input was in the hiring of Manto.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I feel like I'm the only one who watched last season. Walker being no longer associated with this team was a godsend. Dick Allen was proven more than wrong.

 

This year will be interesting though. I don't think we've been this offensively talentless on paper since 1999. Hard to prove anything with the lineups we are sending out.

[elrockinMT]

I think our hitting woes are all caused by the weather. At least that is wehat everyone says - wait for it to warm up. I will get back to you on that

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Sox offense would be even worse if Walker was still here. For one, Rios would still be using that ridiculous stance...

[Balta1701]

Sox offense would be even worse if Walker was still here. For one, Rios would still be using that ridiculous stance...

This.

[caulfield12]

So Rios has been the one big "success" story for Manto, admittedly.

 

Dunn turning things around last season at least seemed to be partially attributable to Manto working with him.

 

 

If you look at Braves' hitters over the last 7 months, are there any who have dramatically improved?

Heyward has definitely gone backwards. McCann has been beset by injuries, so hard to say what effect, if any, Walker has had there.

 

BJ Upton is in a horrendous slump, although I'm not sure we can blame Walker there any more than we can give credit for Justin's season so far.

 

Freeman? Uggla's always been a three outcome hitter, so his approach hasn't changed a bit. Simmons has also been struggling in the early going. And Gattis has come seemingly out of nowhere, and HAS hit after not playing anywhere for 4 years, which is kind of a baseball miracle.

 

Hard to draw any hard conclusions.

 

 

With Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers, it's a mixed bag for both Walker and Manto.

 

Gillaspie's the other early season success story for the Sox, from a hitting standpoint. But, once again, crediting Manto there is like blaming Manto for DeAza, Keppinger, Dunn, Viciedo, Wise, etc., struggling so far out of the gate this season.

 

Other than Dunn, it's hard to say anyone in our line-up is dramatically underachieving, other than some of the names just listed.

Edited April 27, 2013 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Things would have been pretty much the same most likely. The big difference on this board is while the Sox srtill aren't scoring runs, its not blamed on the hitting coach anymore.

 

If you really want a better offense, you need better players. If hitting coaches made the difference in every hitter some believe they do, they would be making $25 million a year. They would be far more valuable than any player.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Dick Allen

[kitekrazy]

I think the job of a hitting coach is always temporary. They also need new players to coach. It's not unusual to seem them make a big difference their first year.

At the major league level it has to be very difficult. Most of the players have habits that are hard to change at this level. The ones that can break them usually self coached.

 

When guys like Walker, Hawkins and Mitchell and Thompson are brought up, the logic tells me trading for prospects will be a dead end. It appears the scouting and instruction sucks. Why are they always drafting these outfielders? This organization doesn't seem to have a scout that can find a good catcher. It could also be kids don't want to play that position anymore.

 

I think the future is beyond bleak. As long as JR is calling the shots it will be nothing but bleak. This team needs new ownership. So far nothing really stands out about Hahn either.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I think the job of a hitting coach is always temporary. They also need new players to coach. It's not unusual to seem them make a big difference their first year.

At the major league level it has to be very difficult. Most of the players have habits that are hard to change at this level. The ones that can break them usually self coached.

 

When guys like Walker, Hawkins and Mitchell and Thompson are brought up, the logic tells me trading for prospects will be a dead end. It appears the scouting and instruction sucks. Why are they always drafting these outfielders? This organization doesn't seem to have a scout that can find a good catcher. It could also be kids don't want to play that position anymore.

 

I think the future is beyond bleak. As long as JR is calling the shots it will be nothing but bleak. This team needs new ownership. So far nothing really stands out about Hahn either.

 

 

Our minor league system has always been known for developing pitching (McCarthy, Hudson, Gio, Richard, etc.), just like Cooper has been known as Dr. Fix-It at the big league level.

 

Recently, it's bullpen arms and identifying guys like Quintana, Floyd, Humber, Danks, Sergio Santos, Jenks, Nathan Jones, Reed or developing Santiago with low draft picks....then you have the up-and-coming group of Beck/Johnson/Snodgress passing "so-so" prospects who were overhyped simply because there had to be someone ranked in our Top 10 like Rienzo, Castro and Molina.

 

Until about a month ago, most scouts would have said the one area of depth we had was those four minor league outfielders....and the possibility of Sanchez being a nifty little player.

 

Nothing pretty much at catcher, no impact hitters on the infield corners, Sanchez/Semien/DiMichele/Johnson at middle infield (none of them considered future stars)....that's it. And all those potential relief arms.

 

[kitekrazy]

Our minor league system has always been known for developing pitching (McCarthy, Hudson, Gio, Richard, etc.), just like Cooper has been known as Dr. Fix-It at the big league level.

 

Recently, it's bullpen arms and identifying guys like Quintana, Floyd, Humber, Danks, Sergio Santos, Jenks, Nathan Jones, Reed or developing Santiago with low draft picks....then you have the up-and-coming group of Beck/Johnson/Snodgress passing "so-so" prospects who were overhyped simply because there had to be someone ranked in our Top 10 like Rienzo, Castro and Molina.

 

Until about a month ago, most scouts would have said the one area of depth we had was those four minor league outfielders....and the possibility of Sanchez being a nifty little player.

 

Nothing pretty much at catcher, no impact hitters on the infield corners, Sanchez/Semien/DiMichele/Johnson at middle infield (none of them considered future stars)....that's it. And all those potential relief arms.

 

Part of the problem is drafting by who are their agents. Better players will get better agents. The strength is pitching but it doesn't seem to last long. Coop's results are not long term. The last time I seen Sale pitch makes me wonder if he will have arm problems from throwing junk instead of a fastball. I did not see a pitch clock past 92.

 

[caulfield12]

Part of the problem is drafting by who are their agents. Better players will get better agents. The strength is pitching but it doesn't seem to last long. Coop's results are not long term. The last time I seen Sale pitch makes me wonder if he will have arm problems from throwing junk instead of a fastball. I did not see a pitch clock past 92.

 

 

Hence, the big long discussion between Harrelson and Steve Stone about why Joe Maddon hates the cutter...because it leads to gradual loss of velocity over time.

 

Claimed that was the biggest reason the Rays ditched Shields, because their organizational philosophy has always been to teach the repetition of good fastballs and building up arm strength, change-up #2 always, then overhand curve #3...and that they would live with the slider but absolutely hate fastball pitchers losing velocity over time throwing too many cutters.

 

Felt Shields was a big influence in the clubhouse and didn't want him to influence any more of their young/up-and-coming pitchers.

 

At least that's Stone's version.

 

 

FWIW, the start before, Sale was at 91-95 with the FB. I think it's just that April dead-arm period, where he's been inconsistent...pacing himself, and the bad weather for some of his starts, especially the one in CLE where he got hammered.

 

 

[greg775]

Things would have been pretty much the same most likely. The big difference on this board is while the Sox srtill aren't scoring runs, its not blamed on the hitting coach anymore.

 

If you really want a better offense, you need better players. If hitting coaches made the difference in every hitter some believe they do, they would be making $25 million a year. They would be far more valuable than any player.

 

Great post. I liked yours too, Caufield. But I believe Dick has it right. The Sox have the same hitting philosophy basically and similarly streaky results. The difference as Dick points out, is Manto is not getting any blame. Walker was despised.

[Andrew]

We staff our ballclub with PATHETIC OBP players...year in, year out. When we OVERPAY for OBP, they turn to crap as soon as they wear the uniform (including and ESPECIALLY - Greg Walker days).

 

I don't know what to say - have seen it over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again.....

 

If you don't get on base, you'll be a BAD hitting team.

 

It's a fact.

 

Runners rattle pitchers - we all learned this in little league...

 

Yet the A's and Rays and all these no-$ teams draft and play smart while we flounder without a single .300 hitter and one guy (who is a complete flake) OBP'ing over .350....(won't last)

 

Joke.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Andrew

[caulfield12]

FLUKE?

 

Greene, Rios and Gillaspie are all over 350 OBP right now.

 

I'm assuming you are referring to Gillaspie.

 

 

As far as the Walker years go, when you have the likes of Durham, Thomas, Ordonez, C-Lee/El Caballo, Valentin, Rowand, Crede, Thome, Dye, AJ, Quentin and Konerko in the line-up....well, that's a LONG list of good to great hitters for their positions.

 

"Talent is as talent does."

 

Missing Beckham, Viciedo and Keppinger now, there's no way we could legitimately expect to be even an average offense...and flipping Flowers for AJ.

 

It's pretty obvious that the big payoff of having Keppinger at 3B (now 2B) for the full season (instead of Morel/Hudson/Youk) isn't having the dramatic effect YET on the line-up that some predicted.

 

If anything, we might have overestimated what Kepp and Konerko would provide this year, and underestimated Beckham's defense at 2B as well as the lack of another RH bat to balance the attack with Viciedo on the sidelines.

Edited April 30, 2013 by caulfield12

[Andrew]

FLUKE?

 

Greene, Rios and Gillaspie are all over 350 OBP right now.

 

I'm assuming you are referring to Gillaspie.

 

 

As far as the Walker years go, when you have the likes of Durham, Thomas, Ordonez, C-Lee/El Caballo, Valentin, Rowand, Crede, Thome, Dye, AJ, Quentin and Konerko in the line-up....well, that's a LONG list of good to great hitters for their positions.

 

"Talent is as talent does."

 

Missing Beckham, Viciedo and Keppinger now, there's no way we could legitimately expect to be even an average offense...and flipping Flowers for AJ.

 

It's pretty obvious that the big payoff of having Keppinger at 3B (now 2B) for the full season (instead of Morel/Hudson/Youk) isn't having the dramatic effect YET on the line-up that some predicted.

 

If anything, we might have overestimated what Kepp and Konerko would provide this year, and underestimated Beckham's defense at 2B as well as the lack of another RH bat to balance the attack with Viciedo on the sidelines.

 

Right - Good luck with all this; from placing stats on call ups/fill ins to your explanation of "decision making."

 

My favorite part - "...might have overestimated what Kepp and Konerko would provide this year..."....

Yeah - no s***.

 

Keppinger was a throw away from a better team than us, and Konerko...come on man..... How long did you REALLY think he would last?

 

Lastly - where do you get off talking about Viciedo??? Might be the only POSSIBLE bright spot on this team, and he's been COMPLETELY mishandled over the last year and 1/2 and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a real Sox fan who would disagree with that.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Andrew

[caulfield12]

Right - Good luck with all this; from placing stats on call ups/fill ins to your explanation of "decision making."

 

My favorite part - "...might have overestimated what Kepp and Konerko would provide this year..."....

Yeah - no s***.

 

Keppinger was a throw away from a better team than us, and Konerko...come on man..... How long did you REALLY think he would last?

 

Lastly - where do you get off talking about Viciedo??? Might be the only POSSIBLE bright spot on this team, and he's been COMPLETELY mishandled over the last year and 1/2 and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a real Sox fan who would disagree with that.

 

 

If you have followed this board since the 2008-09 off-season, you'll discover a pretty consistent record of always defending and hyping Viciedo....

 

I only said his RH power bat was missed in the line-up, and there's no argument about that.

 

It's the reason Casper Wells is now on the roster, but that's only another band-aid.

 

As far as disagreeing about Viciedo, THERE ARE MANY!

 

A lot of Sox fans are more encouraged by Quintana and Santiago (well, until his last appearance) and even Gillaspie.

Edited April 30, 2013 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

No. We were good under Walker, sucked under Walker, were good under Manto, and now we suck under Manto.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Eminor3rd

[Eminor3rd]

Part of the problem is drafting by who are their agents. Better players will get better agents. The strength is pitching but it doesn't seem to last long. Coop's results are not long term. The last time I seen Sale pitch makes me wonder if he will have arm problems from throwing junk instead of a fastball. I did not see a pitch clock past 92.

 

Nearly all pitchers lose velocity every year. It's a highly pronounced trend that velocity peaks in the early twenties. Presumably, a lot of that is due to time and wear, but a lot of it is also due to trading power for command. Coop is famous, specifically, for taking guys with good stuff and giving them enough command to be effective. Naturally, those types of changes are bound to cause loss in velocity, but they are also the difference between wildness and effectiveness.

 

http://cdn.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/...Curves_All1.png

Edited April 30, 2013 by Eminor3rd

[Eminor3rd]

We staff our ballclub with PATHETIC OBP players...year in, year out. When we OVERPAY for OBP, they turn to crap as soon as they wear the uniform (including and ESPECIALLY - Greg Walker days).

 

I don't know what to say - have seen it over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again.....

 

If you don't get on base, you'll be a BAD hitting team.

 

It's a fact.

 

Runners rattle pitchers - we all learned this in little league...

 

Yet the A's and Rays and all these no-$ teams draft and play smart while we flounder without a single .300 hitter and one guy (who is a complete flake) OBP'ing over .350....(won't last)

 

Joke.

 

I don't agree with every hyperbolic detail, but I think the gist of this is true. Our team does seem to encourage free swingers that fail to get on base. There are several benefits to having runners on base outside of the fact that they must reach in order to score. For example, a substantial number of starting pitchers pitch worse from the stretch, losing both velocity AND command.

 

[Andrew]

I don't agree with every hyperbolic detail, but I think the gist of this is true. Our team does seem to encourage free swingers that fail to get on base. There are several benefits to having runners on base outside of the fact that they must reach in order to score. For example, a substantial number of starting pitchers pitch worse from the stretch, losing both velocity AND command.

 

 

"Hyperbolic"? What is hyperbolic about this team in the last 8 yrs? If anything, a dip in 07 and heading for another this year, but the rest is a straight line, my friend... NO HYPERBOLE.

 

If you prefer looking at the saber metrics, those are pretty much flat too.

 

We hit homeruns (pretty much consistent); we don't get on base, don't walk well, low is XBH...

 

I can't find ANY hyperbole, actually, in anything I said!

 

I appreciate you (sort of) agreeing, but your first sentence was the most important and you completely contradict yourself.

 

*Edit - It occurs to me that you don't know what it means to say someone's statements are "hyperbolic". In fact, I'm 100% sure you have no idea what it means.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andrew

[caulfield12]

"Hyperbolic"? What is hyperbolic about this team in the last 8 yrs? If anything, a dip in 07 and heading for another this year, but the rest is a straight line, my friend... NO HYPERBOLE.

 

If you prefer looking at the saber metrics, those are pretty much flat too.

 

We hit homeruns (pretty much consistent); we don't get on base, don't walk well, low is XBH...

 

I can't find ANY hyperbole, actually, in anything I said!

 

I appreciate you (sort of) agreeing, but your first sentence was the most important and you completely contradict yourself.

 

*Edit - It occurs to me that you don't know what it means to say someone's statements are "hyperbolic". In fact, I'm 100% sure you have no idea what it means.

 

 

Words like "pathetic," "fluke/flake" (for Gillaspie), etc.

 

Essentially, your last post is saying they've basically been average for much of the time period since 2005 (minus 2006 and 2008, when they were clearly above average, as well as 2010 and 2012).

 

If a team is usually between 78-84 wins every year, the argument is there's no need to exaggerate or use hyperbole to stress your points...that things are not QUITE so dramatic or as dire as they may seem.

 

 

[caulfield12]

"Hyperbolic"? What is hyperbolic about this team in the last 8 yrs? If anything, a dip in 07 and heading for another this year, but the rest is a straight line, my friend... NO HYPERBOLE.

 

If you prefer looking at the saber metrics, those are pretty much flat too.

 

We hit homeruns (pretty much consistent); we don't get on base, don't walk well, low is XBH...

 

I can't find ANY hyperbole, actually, in anything I said!

 

I appreciate you (sort of) agreeing, but your first sentence was the most important and you completely contradict yourself.

 

*Edit - It occurs to me that you don't know what it means to say someone's statements are "hyperbolic". In fact, I'm 100% sure you have no idea what it means.

 

 

Words/phrases like "pathetic," "fluke/flake" (for Gillaspie), "we all learned this in Little League," etc.

 

Essentially, your last post is saying they've basically been average for much of the time period since 2005 (minus 2006 and 2008, when they were clearly above average, as well as 2010 and 2012).

 

If a team is usually between 78-84 wins every year, the argument is there's no need to exaggerate or use hyperbole to stress your points...that things are not QUITE so dramatic or as dire as they may seem.

Edited May 2, 2013 by caulfield12

[Soxfest]

So glad Walker is gone now he can ruin the Braves young prospects.

[caulfield12]

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/atlanta-braves/...-hitter-he-was/

 

 

Article on Walker attempting to work with BJ Upton...interesting read.