Wizards' Jason Collins

[Kyyle23]

So I shouldn't have an opinion on the response to this story because it doesn't affect me? Come on. I'm not trying to minimize anything. I'm not bashing this guy. I'm not saying it's a non-story. I'm not saying it's meaningless. I'm saying let's tone down the historical relevance here because it's a career bench player coming out after his (most likely) last season playing. He's basically John Amaechi part two.

 

I just think the reaction is a stretch. It's people having this story tee'd up for so long and now that it's here they're going overboard. Obviously you all disagree with me and that's fine. We'll agree to disagree. I have a general problem with the media and people generally over sensationalizing everything. This is just another example.

 

Nobody said you shouldn't have an opinion, you obviously do. And it is pretty much "whatever, nbd".

[Steve9347]

So I shouldn't have an opinion on the response to this story because it doesn't affect me?

I don't think anyone said that. I think they are basically pointing out that your "meh" attitude is because it doesn't effect you.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Steve9347

[Jenksismyhero]

this is a perfect description of the difference between those who are more conservative and those who lean more progressive - whether we're talking about social policy or... well... anything.

 

if it doesn't affect me, it's stupid that we're talking about it.

 

start looking at the bigger picture. it's really not that difficult.

 

Oh f*** that. This is a perfect example of the double standard that exists with people that cry out about discrimination and tolerance. Broussard says that Collins being gay doesn't compute with his version of Christianity and people are saying he should be fired. God, how dare he have a personal belief and some conviction to tell people about it! That's so progressive and tolerant to be understanding of other people that way. So accepting!

[Jake]

It's not meaningless and I said this story is significant. I just don't think the ZOMG! FINALLY, A PROFESSIONAL SPORTS PLAYER HAS COME OUT, QUEUE THE PARADE! response was really justified. That's all.

 

Part of it was less about what he did but also making as obvious a display as possible that he and everyone like him is welcome. Making as positive of a reaction as possible is important to making the atmosphere hospitable for others to come out and be happy with their lives. A hushed response or (of course) a negative response would just leave Jason out there hanging. The one gay guy. There are people out there watching and seeing if Jason made a mistake and the media and public are making sure that everyone else knows it isn't a mistake to live your life in the open.

[Jake]

Oh f*** that. This is a perfect example of the double standard that exists with people that cry out about discrimination and tolerance. Broussard says that Collins being gay doesn't compute with his version of Christianity and people are saying he should be fired. God, how dare he have a personal belief and some conviction to tell people about it! That's so progressive and tolerant to be understanding of other people that way. So accepting!

 

I'm not thrilled about Broussard's comments, but if ESPN wanted a Christian POV on the air, then Broussard delivered one of the more sober ones I could ask for.

[Steve9347]

One would think that a station that accepts advertising revenue from the "It Gets Better" campaign might be smart enough to keep the bigoted feelings of one of their paid "analysts" off the air just hours after a breakthrough story. There's plenty of third-party nutjob assholes who care about what others' do with their lives, they could have brought anyone else on to play the role of bigot.

[iamshack]

Oh f*** that. This is a perfect example of the double standard that exists with people that cry out about discrimination and tolerance. Broussard says that Collins being gay doesn't compute with his version of Christianity and people are saying he should be fired. God, how dare he have a personal belief and some conviction to tell people about it! That's so progressive and tolerant to be understanding of other people that way. So accepting!

I admit, when I first asked rhetorically if he wanted to keep his job, I was unaware he made these statements on OTL...that does put it in a little different perspective for me.

 

However, this is precisely what bothers folks that are not big into religion: the need that religious types seem to have to openly judge others, especially when it is not really relevant or appropriate. First of all, one of the biggest tenets of Christianity is not to judge others, and yet, this is what they constantly do. Secondly, why does Chris Broussard, or any other christian, for that matter, feel that on the day of this announcement, it is appropriate or relevant what HIS beliefs or opinions of Jason Collins are? Who the f*** is Chris Broussard that any of us should care what he thinks? When did Chris Broussard become someone who's opinions on the righteousness of of ANYONE should somehow be relevant?

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Oh f*** that. This is a perfect example of the double standard that exists with people that cry out about discrimination and tolerance. Broussard says that Collins being gay doesn't compute with his version of Christianity and people are saying he should be fired. God, how dare he have a personal belief and some conviction to tell people about it! That's so progressive and tolerant to be understanding of other people that way. So accepting!

 

Because there is a difference.

 

Jason Collins is just promoting himself. I have no problem if Broussard runs around saying hes the biggest Christ supporter and he can have as many Jesus #1 stickers as he would like.

 

But Id have a problem if Jason Collins came out and started judging straight people, Id have a problem if a white announcer started judging black people, Id have a problem if a black announcer started judging white people.

 

There is a difference between having your opinion and unnecessarily attacking and judging people.

 

Broussard can believe in whatever fictional books he wants, he can believe in zombies, he can believe in magic, he can believe in ghosts, that is fine.

 

But people should expect blow back when they judge others.

 

Just because its his opinion, doesnt mean I cant crucify him for it. Yeah pun intended.

[StrangeSox]

Oh f*** that. This is a perfect example of the double standard that exists with people that cry out about discrimination and tolerance. Broussard says that Collins being gay doesn't compute with his version of Christianity and people are saying he should be fired. God, how dare he have a personal belief and some conviction to tell people about it! That's so progressive and tolerant to be understanding of other people that way. So accepting!

Every single person lives in sin according to every Christian theology I've ever heard. Yet the LGBT crowd frequently gets singled out and told that they're not actually Christians because of their sexuality which is a sin according to some Christians but not according to others. Are the 90+% of Catholics who support and use birth control frequently told they're not actually Catholic? Or every other of the billions of Christians who daily commit sins? No, they aren't. This sort of scorn and derision is targeted at a few groups, especially LGBT. And Broussard didn't say the softened-up version you've tried to pass off a few times; he didn't say it didn't fit his own personal view of scripture,he stated flatly that Collins is in "open rebellion against God and Christ" and that he isn't a Christian.

 

You're pointing to the Paradox of Tolerance there, which is frequently brought up as a reactionary response when someone is being called out for being bigoted.

 

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

[Jenksismyhero]

One would think that a station that accepts advertising revenue from the "It Gets Better" campaign might be smart enough to keep the bigoted feelings of one of their paid "analysts" off the air just hours after a breakthrough story. There's plenty of third-party nutjob assholes who care about what others' do with their lives, they could have brought anyone else on to play the role of bigot.

 

I don't see how what he said is bigoted though. He's not saying Collins is a lesser person. He's not saying he shouldn't play basketball. He's not saying let's round up all the queers and beat them in the streets. He said I think he's living in sin and not being a devout Christian, clearly based on his own version of Christianity.

[RockRaines]

I admit, when I first asked rhetorically if he wanted to keep his job, I was unaware he made these statements on OTL...that does put it in a little different perspective for me.

 

However, this is precisely what bothers folks that are not big into religion: the need that religious types seem to have to openly judge others, especially when it is not really relevant or appropriate. First of all, one of the biggest tenets of Christianity is not to judge others, and yet, this is what they constantly do. Secondly, why does Chris Broussard, or any other christian, for that matter, feel that on the day of this announcement, it is appropriate or relevant what HIS beliefs or opinions of Jason Collins are? Who the f*** is Chris Broussard that any of us should care what he thinks? When did Chris Broussard become someone who's opinions on the righteousness of of ANYONE should somehow be relevant?

Christianity these days is based on exclusion and judgement. I particularly like when the real crazies say they follow only whats in the Bible yet use science as a way to discredit gays.

[Jenksismyhero]

I admit, when I first asked rhetorically if he wanted to keep his job, I was unaware he made these statements on OTL...that does put it in a little different perspective for me.

 

However, this is precisely what bothers folks that are not big into religion: the need that religious types seem to have to openly judge others, especially when it is not really relevant or appropriate. First of all, one of the biggest tenets of Christianity is not to judge others, and yet, this is what they constantly do. Secondly, why does Chris Broussard, or any other christian, for that matter, feel that on the day of this announcement, it is appropriate or relevant what HIS beliefs or opinions of Jason Collins are? Who the f*** is Chris Broussard that any of us should care what he thinks? When did Chris Broussard become someone who's opinions on the righteousness of of ANYONE should somehow be relevant?

 

I didn't hear any "judging" from him. I say him say what he does isn't in accordance with the faith. There was no "And I think he's gong to burn in hell" or "and we shouldn't allow those people in the NBA" follow up.

 

I agree with you that it's weird he got into that in the first place. But it was OTL, and reporters frequently editorialize on all sorts of topics. I think it was fair game and that's why they put him out there.

[StrangeSox]

I don't see how what he said is bigoted though. He's not saying Collins is a lesser person. He's not saying he shouldn't play basketball. He's not saying let's round up all the queers and beat them in the streets. He said I think he's living in sin and not being a devout Christian, clearly based on his own version of Christianity.

People justified slavery by pointing to scripture, too. Basically every form of bigotry (sexism, classism, racism, etc.) has been supported by references to some religious text. Didn't mean it wasn't bigoted.

[Soxbadger]

What does it matter, every Christian worships a false idol, which is pretty much a top 10 no no. .

 

But who cares about the hypocrisy, people are allowed to have hypocritical opinions. They are allowed to have nonsensical opinions. They can have the stupidest opinion that has ever existed.

 

I just dont have to sit silently, I have the right to my opinion as well.

[Jenksismyhero]

Every single person lives in sin according to every Christian theology I've ever heard. Yet the LGBT crowd frequently gets singled out and told that they're not actually Christians because of their sexuality which is a sin according to some Christians but not according to others. Are the 90+% of Catholics who support and use birth control frequently told they're not actually Catholic? Or every other of the billions of Christians who daily commit sins? No, they aren't. This sort of scorn and derision is targeted at a few groups, especially LGBT. And Broussard didn't say the softened-up version you've tried to pass off a few times; he didn't say it didn't fit his own personal view of scripture,he stated flatly that Collins is in "open rebellion against God and Christ" and that he isn't a Christian.

 

You're pointing to the Paradox of Tolerance there, which is frequently brought up as a reactionary response when someone is being called out for being bigoted.

 

But again, you realize the topic was about a gay basketball player coming out right? That's the conversation he was having. I'd imagine if he was willing to say that stuff on TV he's also got some pretty strong beliefs/comments about other people who sin and who aren't Christian too.

 

And yeah, it's frequently brought up because it's exactly what happens. It's a double standard that you can speak your mind but only if you think like me.

[Soxbadger]

I didn't hear any "judging" from him. I say him say what he does isn't in accordance with the faith. There was no "And I think he's gong to burn in hell" or "and we shouldn't allow those people in the NBA" follow up.

 

I agree with you that it's weird he got into that in the first place. But it was OTL, and reporters frequently editorialize on all sorts of topics. I think it was fair game and that's why they put him out there.

 

Are you just being willfully ignorant?

 

"I'm a Christian. I don't agree with homosexuality. I think it's a sin, as I think all sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is.... If you're openly living in unrepentant sin, whatever it may be ... that's walking in open rebellion to God and to Jesus Christ."

 

If the bolded isnt judging, then I am not sure what that word means anymore.

[cabiness42]

Every single person lives in sin according to every Christian theology I've ever heard. Yet the LGBT crowd frequently gets singled out and told that they're not actually Christians because of their sexuality which is a sin according to some Christians but not according to others. Are the 90+% of Catholics who support and use birth control frequently told they're not actually Catholic? Or every other of the billions of Christians who daily commit sins? No, they aren't. This sort of scorn and derision is targeted at a few groups, especially LGBT. And Broussard didn't say the softened-up version you've tried to pass off a few times; he didn't say it didn't fit his own personal view of scripture,he stated flatly that Collins is in "open rebellion against God and Christ" and that he isn't a Christian.

 

You're pointing to the Paradox of Tolerance there, which is frequently brought up as a reactionary response when someone is being called out for being bigoted.

 

Yes, one of the biggest problems with Christianity is the double standard in condemnation of some sins more so than others.

 

Catholics who use birth control aren't told that they aren't Catholic, because being free from sin is not a requirement to be Catholic, but most priests will remind them that their use of birth control is a sin.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

People justified slavery by pointing to scripture, too. Basically every form of bigotry (sexism, classism, racism, etc.) has been supported by references to some religious text. Didn't mean it wasn't bigoted.

 

Ok? I'm just saying I don't see how it's bigoted to say here are my religious beliefs and he's not following them so he's not a Christian. It's pretty matter of fact. It's not a personal judgement (although i'm sure he has some).

 

Under that kind of definition of bigot, you're a bigot for not being tolerant of his statements.

[iamshack]

Are you just being willfully ignorant?

 

 

 

If the bolded isnt judging, then I am not sure what that word means anymore.

Don't forget this part:

 

So I would not characterize that person as a Christian because I don’t think the bible would characterize them as a Christian.

 

Oh, I did not realize it was Chris Broussard who was elected Pope last month...

[StrangeSox]

Christianity these days is based on exclusion and judgement. I particularly like when the real crazies say they follow only whats in the Bible yet use science as a way to discredit gays.

 

I posted this study in the 'buster last year. It was by The Barna Group, a pro-christian research group. They found that, among younger people, the primary association for Christianity is "antihomosexual." The post is by a liberal Christian woman lamenting the damage that this culture war has done to Christianity.

 

http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/win-cultur...-north-carolina

 

When asked by The Barna Group what words or phrases best describe Christianity, the top response among Americans ages 16-29 was “antihomosexual.” For a staggering 91 percent of non-Christians, this was the first word that came to their mind when asked about the Christian faith. The same was true for 80 percent of young churchgoers. (The next most common negative images? : “judgmental,” “hypocritical,” and “too involved in politics.”)

[Jenksismyhero]

Are you just being willfully ignorant?

 

 

 

If the bolded isnt judging, then I am not sure what that word means anymore.

 

Eh, yeah I guess. I meant more that he didn't go to another level with it.

[iamshack]

Yes, one of the biggest problems with Christianity is the double standard in condemnation of some sins more so than others.

 

Catholics who use birth control aren't told that they aren't Catholic, because being free from sin is not a requirement to be Catholic, but most priests will remind them that their use of birth control is a sin.

Oh, they aren't if they are educated and part of industrialized society...but the message is a bit different in poverty-striken countries...

[RockRaines]

Ok? I'm just saying I don't see how it's bigoted to say here are my religious beliefs and he's not following them so he's not a Christian. It's pretty matter of fact. It's not a personal judgement (although i'm sure he has some).

 

Under that kind of definition of bigot, you're a bigot for not being tolerant of his statements.

Thats judging. There is no fact around christianity at all. There are tons of version of the book christians worship and tons of offshoot sects. He judged him on air and proclaimed what he was doing as "wrong".

[Soxbadger]

Ok? I'm just saying I don't see how it's bigoted to say here are my religious beliefs and he's not following them so he's not a Christian. It's pretty matter of fact. It's not a personal judgement (although i'm sure he has some).

 

Under that kind of definition of bigot, you're a bigot for not being tolerant of his statements.

 

How is this not a personal judgment:

 

I don't agree with homosexuality. I think it's a sin,

 

You are completely making up a new statement, Broussard didnt say:

 

"Im a Christian, and according to the Bible, which may or may not be correct, homosexuality is a sin."

 

That would be an interpretation.

 

But as soon as you say "I THINK", its a judgment, you are interpreting the damn book and coming up with your own judgment.

 

You are literally trying to reinvent the word judgment here. If HE DIDNT WANT TO JUDGE HE COULD HAVE SIMPLY SAID:

 

"WHILE I AM A CHRISTIAN IT IS NOT MY PLACE TO JUDGE, THE BIBLE SAYS X, BUT I AM NOT GOD."

 

But he didnt.

[Jenksismyhero]

But he didn't add any moral qualifier to it. He didn't say it was "wrong." He's saying it doesn't fit with Christianity (and again, his version of it). That's a key distinction here.