The Ghetto is Public Policy

[southsider2k5]

Somebody needs to point this out.

 

The government soon will start sending $20,000 checks to each of the surviving Japanese-Americans sent to internment camps during the war.

[bmags]

Fair enough, bmags. I don't see anything wrong with debating it as he suggests. I just don't think his position is ever one that will be so easily satisfied, though.

 

I understand.

 

What I like about his advocacy is so often we've had these "Let's talk about race"moments and the focus seems to be on prejudice. That's fine and has its place.

 

I think his point is our history is far more than Lincoln Freed the Slaves, Civil Rights act, and then all is well. American government (in all forms) and individual actors nationwide did not really allow Black Americans the right to their own property or accrue wealth for decades after reconstruction.

 

The meme that Donald Sterling is a great example of American racism not because he told his girlfriend not to bring a black man to Clippers game, but that he generated wealth by housing discrimination preventing black families from moving into his areas. But the latter was fine. At least victims were able to seek retribution in this case.

[StrangeSox]

Isn't that exactly what public education is supposed to be for?

 

The only way you are going to break the multi-generational cycle of poverty is to make people appreciate that an education is step one to a better life.

Well, ending both the public and private policies of racial oppression, which again are documented up to the recent housing crisis in the article, is a pretty necessary part as well. Modern payday loans and rental centers are little better than the housing sales described at the start of the article.

[StrangeSox]

This is one place I think Indiana has made a move into the right direction. They have actually done away with the traditional property tax school funding to a large extent. Now everyone sends that money to Indianapolis. The State has come up with a funding formula that looks at the components of the population of a school district, such as how many learning disabled kids, how many gifted kids, how many kids below poverty rate, and assigns a value to how much it takes to educate the typical kids for those groups, then it comes up with a number that shows it should cost $X to educate the typical kid in your school district. That number is much higher in areas of really high poverty such as Gary, versus your typical cookie cutter white bread suburb.

 

If they wanted to rework education to address it, that one makes sense to me, because if you can catch people at a young enough age, those are the ones you can "save". Once you hit a certain point in life, you are basically giving them a lottery ticket. Odds are much higher if you don't have the right life skills to begin with, that lottery winning ticket will be blown, and they will be back to where they started.

 

Abolishing local property tax funding schemes for public education would be a huge component.

 

edit: I'd be interested in any reviews or analysis of the effects of Indiana's change so far

Edited May 27, 2014 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

Well, ending both the public and private policies of racial oppression, which again are documented up to the recent housing crisis in the article, is a pretty necessary part as well. Modern payday loans and rental centers are little better than the housing sales described at the start of the article.

 

I think most of those things are symptoms after the fact, versus causation. People repeating the cycles of poverty tend to utilize the institutions you are talking about. Those things don't cause poverty in and of themselves.

 

The lack of a valuation of an education is the single biggest factor for poverty in modern America. I reside in a bottom tier school system, not the absolute bottom, but pretty far down. But for kids who are interested in grabbing the brass ring, the chance is there IF they want it. I have signed scholarship checks for kids to go to Harvard, Northwestern, etc. The key is seeing it as a way out. The same school system is also running at about a 2/3's graduation rate, with the lions share of that failure group not making it out of 9th grade status. Most year the system sees the same number of drop outs total, as it does graduates.

[southsider2k5]

Abolishing local property tax funding schemes for public education would be a huge component.

 

edit: I'd be interested in any reviews or analysis of the effects of Indiana's change so far

 

It is still really early, I want to say only 5/6 years in. The changes were done under Mitch Daniels. I haven't seen any real analysis done yet.

[StrangeSox]

I think most of those things are symptoms after the fact, versus causation. People repeating the cycles of poverty tend to utilize the institutions you are talking about. Those things don't cause poverty in and of themselves.

 

Yeah, in a cycle A causes B causes A causes B etc. so you turn to these predatory places like payday lenders because you absolutely need $200 right now to fix your car so you can get to work and not be fired, but then you end up deeper in debt and have to go back again the next time some emergency comes out and you're short on cash. Being poor is expensive.

Edited May 27, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Soxbadger]

Why should my family pay reparations?

 

I can see why you would argue that those who benefited from slavery should have to pay, but what about those of us who received no benefit? What about non-African American minorities, who were also discriminated against.

 

A lot of bad things happened in the past, but sometimes you just have to get over it. Instead of thousands of words, he could have written that sentence.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, in a cycle A causes B causes A causes B etc. so you turn to these predatory places like payday lenders because you absolutely need $200 right now to fix your car so you can get to work and not be fired, but then you end up deeper in debt and have to go back again the next time some emergency comes out and you're short on cash. Being poor is expensive.

 

Your solution will essentially cut off any funding to the poor. They still aren't going to have savings. They still won't be given a credit card because the interest rates couldn't be high enough to justify the risks to lenders.

 

You can argue it wrong all you want, but that will be the consequence of closing those places down.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yeah, in a cycle A causes B causes A causes B etc. so you turn to these predatory places like payday lenders because you absolutely need $200 right now to fix your car so you can get to work and not be fired, but then you end up deeper in debt and have to go back again the next time some emergency comes out and you're short on cash. Being poor is expensive.

 

I'll never quite understand people that use those payday check cashing places. They are literally stealing money from you. Go to a bank, open up a checking account, keep 50 bucks in there and you'll never pay anyone to cash a check again. But nope, they don't do it. They can't see the forest through the trees. Same with settlement loan companies. I've had clients use that "service," being charged 50% interest rates. It's sad.

[StrangeSox]

Your solution will essentially cut off any funding to the poor. They still aren't going to have savings. They still won't be given a credit card because the interest rates couldn't be high enough to justify the risks to lenders.

 

You can argue it wrong all you want, but that will be the consequence of closing those places down.

 

The basic issue is that so many people are in need of those types of services in the first place. The existence of payday lenders is a symptom of that larger problem.

 

But even addressing the smaller issue of payday lenders, there are more than two options (leave them as-is or abolish them and leave the poor to even worse--loan sharks). There are some private institutions that are trying alternative models. Expansions of credit unions, which typically serve local communities more effectively than larger banks, are another option. And there's always the possibility of a public bank, as recently endorsed by Sen. Warren.

[iamshack]

Why should my family pay reparations?

 

I can see why you would argue that those who benefited from slavery should have to pay, but what about those of us who received no benefit? What about non-African American minorities, who were also discriminated against.

 

A lot of bad things happened in the past, but sometimes you just have to get over it. Instead of thousands of words, he could have written that sentence.

You just basically said the same thing that others said 2 hours ago.

 

Perhaps you have benefited from slavery. I am sure there are some pretty decent arguments that could be put together...

[Balta1701]

I'll never quite understand people that use those payday check cashing places. They are literally stealing money from you. Go to a bank, open up a checking account, keep 50 bucks in there and you'll never pay anyone to cash a check again. But nope, they don't do it. They can't see the forest through the trees. Same with settlement loan companies. I've had clients use that "service," being charged 50% interest rates. It's sad.

Just to note, you'll pay ~$100 a year in fees to maintain a checking account at most large banks in this country if you don't have a minimum balance/direct deposit setup.

[StrangeSox]

I'll never quite understand people that use those payday check cashing places. They are literally stealing money from you. Go to a bank, open up a checking account, keep 50 bucks in there and you'll never pay anyone to cash a check again. But nope, they don't do it. They can't see the forest through the trees. Same with settlement loan companies. I've had clients use that "service," being charged 50% interest rates. It's sad.

1) Keeping $50 cash just sitting around isn't always an option when you've got more cash flow going out than coming in perpetually, which is how poverty works. You don't have the luxury to see the forest from the trees when you need to constantly worry about avoiding that tree directly in front of you.

 

2) $50 isn't going to really cover any emergency expenses. The check-cashing side has its own exploitation problems, but the payday loans are something different. Those are the short-term advances you get that could be $100-500 or so that are typically paid off with the next couple of paychecks but carry 200-400% APR. If you have little or no savings and you absolutely need to get your car fixed or you'll lose your job and be even worse off, you unfortunately don't have much of a choice in many areas.

[StrangeSox]

You just basically said the same thing that others said 2 hours ago.

 

Perhaps you have benefited from slavery. I am sure there are some pretty decent arguments that could be put together...

 

As the sub-headline of the article points out, it's about much more than just slavery. The whole first section of his article, as well as the link I posted way back at the start of this thread about about racial discrimination in public housing (along with white terrorism against blacks) within the last few decades.

[iamshack]

Just to note, you'll pay ~$100 a year in fees to maintain a checking account at most large banks in this country if you don't have a minimum balance/direct deposit setup.

Usually the reason people don't have a bank account is because they haven't satisfied previous insufficient funds fees or negative balances. Until they do, the bank won't give you a checking account.

[Jenksismyhero]

100 bucks a year is still cheaper than those check cashing places that charge you X% of the check you're cashing.

[Soxbadger]

You just basically said the same thing that others said 2 hours ago.

 

Perhaps you have benefited from slavery. I am sure there are some pretty decent arguments that could be put together...

 

I read the thread, could not find a decent argument.

 

My family moved to this country post 1900 and they were minorities who were discriminated against.

 

Why should they pay reparations?

 

[iamshack]

As the sub-headline of the article points out, it's about much more than just slavery. The whole first section of his article, as well as the link I posted way back at the start of this thread about about racial discrimination in public housing (along with white terrorism against blacks) within the last few decades.

Well just think of it this way...do you think slavery might have reduced the population qualified to be accepted to law school or to practice law? Just the mere setting back of this portion of the population lessens competition in many occupations. Perhaps Badger and I and Jenks were able to attend better schools or get better jobs because there was less competition than there might have been without the oppression that has taken place over the last few hundred years.

[Jenksismyhero]

I read the thread, could not find a decent argument.

 

My family moved to this country post 1900 and they were minorities who were discriminated against.

 

Why should they pay reparations?

 

Because they were racist.

[StrangeSox]

Nobody is proposing that individuals repay reparations. The focus is on what civil society can do via the same governments that have been used to exploit and oppress African Americans for centuries to pay off the debt of that exploitation. The idea that this sort of debt just goes away if its ignored long enough doesn't hold up.

 

FWIW, Germany paid reparations to Israel for what it did to the Jews.

[StrangeSox]

Well just think of it this way...do you think slavery might have reduced the population qualified to be accepted to law school or to practice law? Just the mere setting back of this portion of the population lessens competition in many occupations. Perhaps Badger and I and Jenks were able to attend better schools or get better jobs because there was less competition than there might have been without the oppression that has taken place over the last few hundred years.

And it's not just about slavery but about the century and a half after slavery of public policy that deliberately impoverished and oppressed black Americans. Focusing just on slavery allows someone to argue as if this is all about something that happened a long time ago and everybody who was effected is long dead.

[bmags]

I read the thread, could not find a decent argument.

 

My family moved to this country post 1900 and they were minorities who were discriminated against.

 

Why should they pay reparations?

 

Did your family ever benefit from Social Security? GI Bill?

 

Did your family ever own a home? Were they able to get a 30 year fixed mortgage? Did they use that mortgage to move into their desired neighborhood? Did that neighborhood have good schools?

 

All of these had specific structural barriers practiced on black americans. Imagine if that wealth was denied to your family in these points by the government.

 

Worse, imagine that the denial of those legitimate means of achieving those goals (mortages from banks) pushed your family to try and achieve their dreams through other ways, which were predatory and artificially sucked more money than would be allowed to a non-black family, pushing many into foreclosure and many into poverty.

 

"You" may have not done anything, but you have benefited from a social system that has by and large placed a high premium on building the wealth of white communities, at the very least, at the expense of black communities. And that's the nicest reading of it. The other reading is that it placed a high priority of building wealth of white citizens, and preventing any wealth of black communities.

[iamshack]

Nobody is proposing that individuals repay reparations. The focus is on what civil society can do via the same governments that have been used to exploit and oppress African Americans for centuries to pay off the debt of that exploitation. The idea that this sort of debt just goes away if its ignored long enough doesn't hold up.

 

FWIW, Germany paid reparations to Israel for what it did to the Jews.

To the tune of $7 billion in today's dollars.

 

Israel’s GNP tripled during the 12 years of the agreement. The Bank of Israel attributed 15 percent of this growth, along with 45,000 jobs, to investments made with reparations money. But Segev argues that the impact went far beyond that. Reparations “had indisputable psychological and political importance,” he writes.

[southsider2k5]

Nobody is proposing that individuals repay reparations. The focus is on what civil society can do via the same governments that have been used to exploit and oppress African Americans for centuries to pay off the debt of that exploitation. The idea that this sort of debt just goes away if its ignored long enough doesn't hold up.

 

FWIW, Germany paid reparations to Israel for what it did to the Jews.

 

Now that is just slight of hand. If the government pays reparations, we all pay reparations.