The Ghetto is Public Policy

[Jenksismyhero]

To the tune of $7 billion in today's dollars.

 

I'll move the goal posts, as Balta will erroneously claim, but killing 6 million members of your group and making tens of millions more homeless is a little different than what happened to blacks here in the US.

[StrangeSox]

Now that is just slight of hand. If the government pays reparations, we all pay reparations.

 

Ultimately that's the source of tax dollars, but I think it's an important distinction, especially when we're talking about the legacy of public/government policies. Otherwise we can carry that "I didn't personally benefit from X, why should I pay for it?" to the whole idea of taxation itself.

 

You're not being individually asked to track down and compensate anyone. It's about using the same government and systems that were used to plunder a community for centuries to provide some restoration.

[StrangeSox]

I'll move the goal posts, as Balta will erroneously claim, but killing 6 million members of your group and making tens of millions more homeless is a little different than what happened to blacks here in the US.

 

We can quickly and easily slide that into thanking you for your support for reparations to American Indians.

 

I don't know how I'd weigh 10 or so years of targeted ethnic cleansing and plundering of the Jews by Germany against 250 years of chattel slavery, 100 more years of de jure white racial supremacy and then another 50 years or so of other racial policies targeted at a community. They are both horrendous.

[bmags]

I'll move the goal posts, as Balta will erroneously claim, but killing 6 million members of your group and making tens of millions more homeless is a little different than what happened to blacks here in the US.

 

The slave trade featured more millions of deaths, a tearing apart of 450 years of families, abuse and rape of a group of people.

 

edit: don't want to get into an oppression olympics.

 

The only difference is the time that passed.

Edited May 27, 2014 by bmags

[Jenksismyhero]

We can quickly and easily slide that into thanking you for your support for reparations to American Indians.

 

I don't know how I'd weigh 10 or so years of targeted ethnic cleansing and plundering of the Jews by Germany against 250 years of chattel slavery, 100 more years of de jure white racial supremacy and then another 50 years or so of other racial policies targeted at a community. They are both horrendous.

 

Sure they were/are. But context is important. You can't just say "they did it so we should." "They" did it at a time when "Germany" was paying back everyone for the wars they started, and they were being forced to do so by the Allies. And they were paying for a new nation state, not their own citizens.

 

Edited May 27, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[bmags]

Now that is just slight of hand. If the government pays reparations, we all pay reparations.

 

I do find that mindset interesting though. If the government was responsible for a disaster area, pollution, accidental explosion, etc, and it destroyed properties or killed people, and they sued, would people be like "I didn't do it, why should I pay?"

[StrangeSox]

The slave trade featured more millions of deaths, a tearing apart of 450 years of families, abuse and rape of a group of people.

 

edit: don't want to get into an oppression olympics.

 

The only difference is the time that passed.

 

In Haiti, about half of the slaves died within a few years of being brought to the island. French plantation owners calculated that it was cheaper to import new slaves than to improve working conditions and provide adequate food so that they would survive. Not relevant to a discussion of US reparations but never underestimate the evils of chattel slavery.

[Jenksismyhero]

Let me ask you this: say the American people agree to pay something. Do you honestly think it will help? Say every black person gets $50k over the next 20 years. What will that solve? Anything?

 

I noticed throughout his entire piece he doesn't mention anything about changes within the black community. That's going to be the answer, if there ever is one.

[StrangeSox]

Let me ask you this: say the American people agree to pay something. Do you honestly think it will help? Say every black person gets $50k over the next 20 years. What will that solve? Anything?

 

I noticed throughout his entire piece he doesn't mention anything about changes within the black community. That's going to be the answer, if there ever is one.

 

I'm about to leave for the day and will be busy tonight, but I'll post some other recent articles by TNC addressing that very topic tomorrow.

[Soxbadger]

I'll move the goal posts, as Balta will erroneously claim, but killing 6 million members of your group and making tens of millions more homeless is a little different than what happened to blacks here in the US.

 

Not to mention its irrelevant. Germany does not equal the US. And last I checked half of Germany didn't fight Hitler to free the Jews.

 

And I like the whole "Did your family get a loan?" Well sure my father did, my grandfather also had a factory taken from him by the US govt (discrimination). One of my great uncles suffered a debilitating illness because they couldnt immigrate to the US (due to discrimination) quick enough.

 

So whats my ledger look like?

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I do find that mindset interesting though. If the government was responsible for a disaster area, pollution, accidental explosion, etc, and it destroyed properties or killed people, and they sued, would people be like "I didn't do it, why should I pay?"

 

That's your problem though, the "government" didn't do a lot of this.

[Soxbadger]

The slave trade featured more millions of deaths, a tearing apart of 450 years of families, abuse and rape of a group of people.

 

edit: don't want to get into an oppression olympics.

 

The only difference is the time that passed.

 

Time means something.

[gatnom]

Let me ask you this: say the American people agree to pay something. Do you honestly think it will help? Say every black person gets $50k over the next 20 years. What will that solve? Anything?

 

I noticed throughout his entire piece he doesn't mention anything about changes within the black community. That's going to be the answer, if there ever is one.

 

It might be worth noting that the figure you're throwing out here far exceeds the $7 billion figure being thrown around. Now, if instead of just paying money out like the article was seemingly suggesting they pooled a smaller amount to try and fix the schooling and other issues that have been mentioned, they might be able to make some headway, IMO. I'm not sure I trust the government to pull off such a plan, but theoretically it could work.

 

 

[Soxbadger]

That's your problem though, the "government" didn't do a lot of this.

 

The problem is that people cant admit that there will always be racism, unfairness, etc in society. And that all we can do is try and give people a chance. Not an equal chance, maybe not even a fair chance, but if the stars align anyone can be anything in this country.

 

Sometimes you gotta make your own breaks.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Soxbadger

[bmags]

That's your problem though, the "government" didn't do a lot of this.

 

I guess our definitions of "lot" differ.

[bmags]

The problem is that people cant admit that there will always be racism, unfairness, etc in society. And that all we can do is try and give people a chance. Not an equal chance, maybe not even a fair chance, but if the stars align anyone can be anything in this country.

 

Sometimes you gotta make your own breaks.

 

That would have been a great speech to give slaves.

[bmags]

It might be worth noting that the figure you're throwing out here far exceeds the $7 billion figure being thrown around. Now, if instead of just paying money out like the article was seemingly suggesting they pooled a smaller amount to try and fix the schooling and other issues that have been mentioned, they might be able to make some headway, IMO. I'm not sure I trust the government to pull off such a plan, but theoretically it could work.

 

TBH straight cash transfers would be the easiest with least amount of "waste"but likely the least palatable.

[Soxbadger]

That would have been a great speech to give slaves.

 

Shows how completely out of touch you are that you equate "unfair lending practices" with "slavery".

 

 

[gatnom]

TBH straight cash transfers would be the easiest with least amount of "waste"but likely the least palatable.

 

For both sides, I would imagine. $7 billion split amongst every African American is less than $200 a person.

 

 

[bmags]

I'm comparing slavery to slavery, and I feel pretty confident in that analogy.

[Soxbadger]

I'm comparing slavery to slavery, and I feel pretty confident in that analogy.

 

So the people you want to give money to were actually slaves???

 

I did not think that any actual slaves were living...

 

(edit)

 

 

And that is ultimately where this all falls apart, you want to give money to people who theoretically may have suffered some harm, but it cant be actually proven that any of the individuals did. And that is why time matters, I cant expect that Russia will pay me back from my familys land being taken, nor Ukraine, nor Egypt nor any of the other thousands of people who legitimately stole from my ancestors.

 

If someone can prove they are damaged TODAY, they are deserving of compensation. If someone shows that they were denied a loan TODAY because of discrimination, they deserve something. But not 10 years ago, not 50 years ago, not 100 years ago, it has to be recent.

 

Like it or not, you eventually have to get over bad things happening.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Soxbadger

[Jake]

As a white guy, I enjoy all kinds of social benefits, which I then parlay into financial and other benefits, and this is because of slavery and a history of sexism. There aren't many people that are intentionally connecting my white man-ness with the bestowing of these benefits, but they are nonetheless the result of these things. When I walk into a room, as a white man, there are certain things people assume about me that they don't assume about other people that aren't white guys. They are probably not worried about me stealing things, being a bad driver, being over-emotional.

 

These are, all else being equal, obvious ways that I unfairly benefit from our racial past.

 

Beyond that, we operate in a capitalist economy that is justified in tremendous part on the idea that the distribution of wealth is morally neutral. This is why we argue against social welfare policy - when an amoral economic system assigns some parties more and less wealth, there is no justice in giving some of it to those who got less. The only undeniable injustice, in that case, would be taking the wealth of the wealthier parties and giving it to those less off ones.

 

However, our distribution of wealth is patently unjust and morally unjustifiable. Even if we want to forget about native Americans for simplicity's sake - we'll say that they weren't willing to participate in free trade or something. We'll also pretend that vestiges of feudalism and nobility didn't make it across the pond: all the white Americans started off on the right foot. Black folks were not paid for labor until 1865, quite obviously legally discriminated against in employment since at least the 1960s, and are arguably still falling victim to racist housing policy today. This is not to mention the aforementioned social norms that play against them. So we exclude these people from the economy, then only allow them a small part of it, exclude them from education, then only allow them a small part of it, exclude them from our society, then only allow them a small part of it, and then as we finally start to approach a more equal-looking legal treatment of them...we wonder why they don't just succeed? We (white folks) decided to take a 200 year head start before we evened the playing field of legal opportunities.

 

It takes deliberate effort. Thomas Jefferson, in his Notes on the State of Virginia, wanted to emancipate slaves and send them to Africa - how awful. EVEN THEN, he argued that it would be wholly unjust to simply send them there. First, he says, you'd have to train each and every one of them in vocations and give them an adequate education otherwise, in addition to giving them the material goods with which they might successfully lead a life. Imagine what kinds of measures he'd want to take to integrate them into American society (something he didn't advocate for because he feared they'd resent white people too much). In letters to a friend who was considering freeing his slaves, Jefferson said not to even do it if he wasn't going to give them the training and resources to integrate into society. That all from a guy who didn't think very highly of slaves.

 

So the reason something like reparations might make sense is because we've hardly done a damn thing to make up for the way things went. Just doing nothing now, feeling personally blameless, conveniently lets us live in a system that was rigged in our favor. Sure, there have been other injustices and there are all kinds of intricacies of society that play for and against different people, but there's nothing quite like the treatment of blacks in the USA - that is, other than our treatment of women, which is a kind of similar issue that we still feel the vestiges of in multiple areas of life.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Jake

[Y2HH]

So the reason something like reparations might make sense is because we've hardly done a damn thing to make up for the way things went. Just doing nothing now, feeling personally blameless, conveniently lets us live in a system that was rigged in our favor. Sure, there have been other injustices and there are all kinds of intricacies of society that play for and against different people, but there's nothing quite like the treatment of blacks in the USA - that is, other than our treatment of women, which is a kind of similar issue that we still feel the vestiges of in multiple areas of life.

 

I agree with the poster above you, it has to be more recent and harm has to be proven it was done specifically to YOU, not to some ancestor of yours you never met. My "ancestors" lost everything they owned in Nazi Germany, and these are people I actually know today who are still alive, and we aren't getting any of it back.

 

Do yourself a favor and stop pretending s*** like this only happens and/or happened to women and other races. News flash, it's happened to plenty of white people, too.

 

Time to move on, guilty white man who's only crime is being white.

 

ITT: White guilt.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

One cannot escape the question by hand-waving at the past, disavowing the acts of one’s ancestors, nor by citing a recent date of ancestral immigration. The last slaveholder has been dead for a very long time. The last soldier to endure Valley Forge has been dead much longer. To proudly claim the veteran and disown the slaveholder is patriotism à la carte. A nation outlives its generations. We were not there when Washington crossed the Delaware, but Emanuel Gottlieb Leutze’s rendering has meaning to us. We were not there when Woodrow Wilson took us into World War I, but we are still paying out the pensions. If Thomas Jefferson’s genius matters, then so does his taking of Sally Hemings’s body. If George Washington crossing the Delaware matters, so must his ruthless pursuit of the runagate Oney Judge.

[Y2HH]

One cannot escape the question by hand-waving at the past, disavowing the acts of one’s ancestors, nor by citing a recent date of ancestral immigration. The last slaveholder has been dead for a very long time. The last soldier to endure Valley Forge has been dead much longer. To proudly claim the veteran and disown the slaveholder is patriotism à la carte. A nation outlives its generations. We were not there when Washington crossed the Delaware, but Emanuel Gottlieb Leutze’s rendering has meaning to us. We were not there when Woodrow Wilson took us into World War I, but we are still paying out the pensions. If Thomas Jefferson’s genius matters, then so does his taking of Sally Hemings’s body. If George Washington crossing the Delaware matters, so must his ruthless pursuit of the runagate Oney Judge.

 

Nope, but we sure can move on.