Who do you blame for the current state of the team?

[caulfield12]

I guess we could also add the schedule, Buddy Bell, Marco Paddy, the jinx of the 1983 uniforms, the fans, the marketing department, etc.

 

In all seriousness, though, there's not much that they can do but ride it out. And, even though we're 5.5 behind the Tigers, we're still 3.5 ahead of the Blue Jays!

 

Reading the article below of course forced me to think about our own manager and how this story could easily have been about Ventura...Gibbons could use the injury excuse with Reyes, Lawrie and Baustista missing time, as well, although the injuries aren't to the same extent as the White Sox are dealing with.

 

But it's an expectations game. None or very little for the Sox, to the point where they didn't have a credible Opening Day marketing campaign. Toronto's situation is a lot like the White Sox in 2011 after adding Dunn and coming off a strong 2010 comeback.

 

But there are a lot of parallels. The main reasons for hope are the pitching, the fact that they SHOULDN'T be THIS bad offensively for the entire season and the defense and funadamentals should HOPEFULLY start to turn around soon. And that they're still only 4 games under .500, when they could be 6-8-10 games under (it feels that way, even if pythagorean doesn't bear it out).

 

 

 

BOSTON - John Gibbons can’t hit, can’t field, can’t pitch for the Blue Jays and yet ultimately the team on the field is his responsibility.

 

If they weren’t ready to start the season — and they certainly didn’t seem prepared — that has to be on him. If a month later, they’re no better, then that’s somewhat reflective of his ability to affect change.

 

The slow start of the Blue Jays is now officially a disaster. They are being laughed at around the American League. Everyone’s having a good chuckle at their expense.

 

They finally spent money and are turning out to be Rogers’ greatest disaster since trying to sneak specialty channels on unknowing consumers back in 1995. But there seems no solution to the ball club. Starting pitching is dreadful. Hitting is worse. Defence is dubious. There is no one thing to fix and Gibbons may eventually pay the price for hope coming off its hinges.

 

The Jays have played six series at home, have lost the first game of all of them, have won none of them. This is worse than anyone could have imagined. And Gibbons may ending pay the price for the inability of all around him and his inability to alter the scope.

 

 

Toronto Sun/Sports

Edited May 5, 2013 by caulfield12

[T R U]

This is still KWs lousy team, gotta pick him

[Texsox]

Who do you blame when a good decision turns out bad?

[Marty34]

Williams. Among the poor trades and bad contracts, he also hired Dave Wilder.

[caulfield12]

Who do you blame when a good decision turns out bad?

 

 

You can only blame the manager so much, but that position in a professional sports organization is the "fall guy" 90% of the time. (Notice in the case of the Blue Jays, there's not an article at any of the newspapers suggesting Alex Anthopolous is to blame for the freefall.)

 

In this case, Ventura's inexperience and Hahn's newness to the job protect them...and JR/KW are firewalled, in a sense, because they're almost totally out of the public eye now.

 

Which leads to apathy/malaise/disengagement.

 

There's not even a villain or bad guy, like when Ozzie was around. It's a total systemic failure across the board. And Harrelson's even grasping for enemies with Mariotti and Cowley no longer part of the picture. It's like the new version of Red Dawn...nobody's buying the substitution of North Korea for Russia or China, haha. Catfights with Boers & Bernstein are just kind of sad.

Edited May 5, 2013 by caulfield12

[fathom]

Williams, as years of getting horrible returns on trades has caught up with the team.

[daggins]

While there is certainly enough blame to go around, I'm gonna lay this at JR's door.

[caulfield12]

Williams. Among the poor trades and bad contracts, he also hired Dave Wilder.

 

 

Not producing any Dominican ballplayers for a decade has really hurt.

 

We all know the bad trades (both Swisher ones, Hudson/Jackson, the Javy to Atlanta move...although jury is still out on Flowers, Jackson to Blue Jays, Santos/Molina)....and bad contracts (Dunn and Danks at the moment)...finally, the bad first round draft picks with the exception of Chris Sale.

 

Using Wilder as the excuse for the current state of disarray and lack of development (especially position players) in our minor league system is missing the point.

 

Eventually, Buddy Bell is going to be held accountable as well.

 

Of course, that's not going to pacify 90-95% of the casual Sox fans who have no idea what he even does for the organization.

[caulfield12]

Besides losing Beckham at 2B, how can we explain going from the best or one of the best defenses in the AL in 2012 to the worst in the last 2 1/2 months of regular season play?

 

How can the Tigers have gone from worst to first in that category?

 

It seems that DET has at least addressed the leadership issue on the team by bringing in Torii Hunter. Our counter was Jeff Keppinger.

 

 

Maybe things can never really change with the chemistry/clubhouse until every member of the 2005 team is gone and new leaders emerge to replace Konerko, AJ and Buehrle (and eventually Peavy).

 

 

Finally, can someone explain why we haven't seemed to even try to adjust our approach against Guthrie?

As High Mileage pointed out, the dude's got a 0.04 ERA against us since the start of 2012 in 5 starts against us. There's got to be SOME type of plan or approach...that's different from what's OBVIOUSLY not working.

Edited May 5, 2013 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

Dave Wilder without question. Not having an influx of talent from Latin America for an extended period of time has put us at a significant disadvantage. We became a crippled organization and it's almost shocking how we've been able to remain competitive in recent years despite this. With even a couple of Latin American players on the roster or prospects available to trade who knows how the last few seasons would have played out.

 

Also, not sure how you can blame KW for the Wilder fiasco. He was highly regarded at the time of the hire and even interviewed for the Red Sox's GM job at one point. Wilder was simply a scumbag who fooled a lot of people in baseball. It sucks for us the way it worked out, but I don't put the blame on KW for Wilder's misdoings.

[caulfield12]

Dave Wilder without question. Not having an influx of talent from Latin America for an extended period of time has put us at a significant disadvantage. We became a crippled organization and it's almost shocking how we've been able to remain competitive in recent years despite this. With even a couple of Latin American players on the roster or prospects available to trade who knows how the last few seasons would have played out.

 

Also, not sure how you can blame KW for the Wilder fiasco. He was highly regarded at the time of the hire and even interviewed for the Red Sox's GM job at one point. Wilder was simply a scumbag who fooled a lot of people in baseball. It sucks for us the way it worked out, but I don't put the blame on KW for Wilder's misdoings.

 

 

Yes, but we sort of made up for it with Ramirez and Viciedo.

 

I would doubt there are more than a couple of teams that have developed more than 2 starting players from the Dominican since 2008.

 

Throw in Quintana (Colombia), Sergio Santos, Septimo, Santiago (Puerto Rico by way of Newark/30th round), DeAza (Dominican), Rios (Puerto Rico), Gimenez, Angel Sanchez, etc., we have had a representative number of Latin ballplayers, right around the 30-35% mark that's typical for most teams.

 

 

[Marty34]

Dave Wilder without question. Not having an influx of talent from Latin America for an extended period of time has put us at a significant disadvantage. We became a crippled organization and it's almost shocking how we've been able to remain competitive in recent years despite this. With even a couple of Latin American players on the roster or prospects available to trade who knows how the last few seasons would have played out.

 

Also, not sure how you can blame KW for the Wilder fiasco. He was highly regarded at the time of the hire and even interviewed for the Red Sox's GM job at one point. Wilder was simply a scumbag who fooled a lot of people in baseball. It sucks for us the way it worked out, but I don't put the blame on KW for Wilder's misdoings.

 

I don't understand how KW can be completely absolved of the Wilder fiasco. As the one who did the hiring he has a share of the responsibility.

[Andy the Clown]

The Sox have had a problem of organizational philosophy.

 

For years, the organization did not value building the minor league system, and emphasized raw power over OBP. These issues lay squarely at the feet of JR and KW.

[caulfield12]

I don't understand how KW can be completely absolved of the Wilder fiasco. As the one who did the hiring he has a share of the responsibility.

 

 

That's all fine and good, but what would firing or replacing him do at this point?

 

What difference would it make for the future of the organization? Everyone makes mistakes. Heck, it took Abraham Lincoln about EIGHT tries before he found the correct general to lead the Army of the Potomac.

 

Would it really make you feel better if Williams "took one for the team" or "fell on his own sword" and announced his resignation?

 

Then what? Hahn would be completely on his own, with only Paddy, Laumann and Buddy Bell to advise him. Is that such a great idea?

 

 

 

Should the Astros' fans blame the Sox for Lucas Harrell, Phil Humber and C. Carter, lol?

 

For a club filled with young, unproven talent and late-career veterans that prides itself on an improved aggressive attack, the Astros continue to commit mind-numbing baseball mistakes.

 

After the Tigers jumped ahead 4-0 in the top of the first inning, Astros rookie center fielder Robbie Grossman responded in the bottom of the frame with a leadoff line-drive single to right field. With contact-hitter Jose Altuve (tied with Cabrera for first in MLB in hits, 42, entering Saturday) at the plate and no outs, Grossman attempted to steal second. He was gunned down by catcher Alex Avila. Altuve lightly grounded out, No. 3 batter Jason Castro struck out and any momentum the Astros had was erased.

 

“That was a straight steal and that’s on me,” Porter said. (Yay for accountability, Porter got it from Hayden Fry)

 

In the second inning, Cabrera’s first rocket of the night was preceded by Torii Hunter taking second as Harrell idly stood near the mound and first baseman Carlos Pena stood in front of his bag. No throw was made and Hunter advanced standing up. Cabrera’s smooth, powerful swing then made it 6-0.

 

Harrell shrugged off his out-of-character start, saying he mostly made good pitches and his mistakes were hit.

 

“I didn’t think they did that well at all,” Harrell said. “I felt like I kept them off balance and they hit a lot of weak contact. They just placed the ball in the right spot.” (Sounds familiar!)

 

Tigers’ might on display

 

The Tigers’ assault occurred on a good baseball night at Minute Maid. The Astros announced their largest attendance in nearly two weeks. A warm May evening initially kept fans in the stands. A batting practice launch party conducted by Prince Fielder and Cabrera had early attendees oohing and aahing as balls alternated between the top of the Crawford Boxes and the second deck of the right-field stands.

 

The warning shots were for real. A frustrated Harrell tossed his glove, shook his head and spoke out loud once innings finally ended. Reliever Jose Cisnero gave up six runs and eight hits in 22⁄3 innings, his ERA ballooning to 5.73. All while Detroit starter Max Scherzer allowed just three hits and one run in eight innings, striking out eight and not allowing an Astros hit between Grossman’s leadoff single and Matt Dominguez’s two-out single in the sixth.

 

The Tigers looked like defending AL champions eyeing another World Series. The Astros looked like an majors-worst 8-23 team on pace for 120 losses and with the worst run differential (-66) in MLB.

 

The lone positive? Detroit’s 15-run knockout only counts as one defeat.

 

“You don’t dwell on the magnitude of it,” Pena said. “You have to just be like, ‘OK. We lost.’ And leave it at that. Regardless of what goes on, it’s very important the way you react to it. … When it’s bad, you try to shrink it. When it’s good, you try to embellish it. And that’s the mind game of this long year.”

 

Houston Chronicle.com/sports/astros

Edited May 5, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

The Sox have had a problem of organizational philosophy.

 

For years, the organization did not value building the minor league system, and emphasized raw power over OBP. These issues lay squarely at the feet of JR and KW.

 

 

And players like Swisher, Dunn and Keppinger brought in to change the tide have all flopped. That hasn't helped either.

 

It's funny, because in the last two years, we've seen Juan Pierre and AJ go, and we're STILL getting worse in the OBP/walk/patience department.

 

 

[Marty34]

That's all fine and good, but what would firing or replacing him do at this point?

 

What difference would it make for the future of the organization? Everyone makes mistakes. Heck, it took Abraham Lincoln about EIGHT tries before he found the correct general to lead the Army of the Potomac.

 

Would it really make you feel better if Williams "took one for the team" or "fell on his own sword" and announced his resignation?

 

Then what? Hahn would be completely on his own, with only Paddy, Laumann and Buddy Bell to advise him. Is that such a great idea?

 

 

 

Should the Astros' fans blame the Sox for Lucas Harrell, Phil Humber and C. Carter, lol?

 

For a club filled with young, unproven talent and late-career veterans that prides itself on an improved aggressive attack, the Astros continue to commit mind-numbing baseball mistakes.

 

After the Tigers jumped ahead 4-0 in the top of the first inning, Astros rookie center fielder Robbie Grossman responded in the bottom of the frame with a leadoff line-drive single to right field. With contact-hitter Jose Altuve (tied with Cabrera for first in MLB in hits, 42, entering Saturday) at the plate and no outs, Grossman attempted to steal second. He was gunned down by catcher Alex Avila. Altuve lightly grounded out, No. 3 batter Jason Castro struck out and any momentum the Astros had was erased.

 

“That was a straight steal and that’s on me,” Porter said. (Yay for accountability, Porter got it from Hayden Fry)

 

In the second inning, Cabrera’s first rocket of the night was preceded by Torii Hunter taking second as Harrell idly stood near the mound and first baseman Carlos Pena stood in front of his bag. No throw was made and Hunter advanced standing up. Cabrera’s smooth, powerful swing then made it 6-0.

 

Harrell shrugged off his out-of-character start, saying he mostly made good pitches and his mistakes were hit.

 

“I didn’t think they did that well at all,” Harrell said. “I felt like I kept them off balance and they hit a lot of weak contact. They just placed the ball in the right spot.” (Sounds familiar!)

 

Tigers’ might on display

 

The Tigers’ assault occurred on a good baseball night at Minute Maid. The Astros announced their largest attendance in nearly two weeks. A warm May evening initially kept fans in the stands. A batting practice launch party conducted by Prince Fielder and Cabrera had early attendees oohing and aahing as balls alternated between the top of the Crawford Boxes and the second deck of the right-field stands.

 

The warning shots were for real. A frustrated Harrell tossed his glove, shook his head and spoke out loud once innings finally ended. Reliever Jose Cisnero gave up six runs and eight hits in 22⁄3 innings, his ERA ballooning to 5.73. All while Detroit starter Max Scherzer allowed just three hits and one run in eight innings, striking out eight and not allowing an Astros hit between Grossman’s leadoff single and Matt Dominguez’s two-out single in the sixth.

 

The Tigers looked like defending AL champions eyeing another World Series. The Astros looked like an majors-worst 8-23 team on pace for 120 losses and with the worst run differential (-66) in MLB.

 

The lone positive? Detroit’s 15-run knockout only counts as one defeat.

 

“You don’t dwell on the magnitude of it,” Pena said. “You have to just be like, ‘OK. We lost.’ And leave it at that. Regardless of what goes on, it’s very important the way you react to it. … When it’s bad, you try to shrink it. When it’s good, you try to embellish it. And that’s the mind game of this long year.”

 

Houston Chronicle.com/sports/astros

 

The question of who to blame was yours.

[Chicago White Sox]

Yes, but we sort of made up for it with Ramirez and Viciedo.

 

I would doubt there are more than a couple of teams that have developed more than 2 starting players from the Dominican since 2008.

 

Throw in Quintana (Colombia), Sergio Santos, Septimo, Santiago (Puerto Rico by way of Newark/30th round), DeAza (Dominican), Rios (Puerto Rico), Gimenez, Angel Sanchez, etc., we have had a representative number of Latin ballplayers, right around the 30-35% mark that's typical for most teams.

Other than Ramirez & Viciedo, you named zero Latin American players that we actually signed as amatuer free agents. I have no idea why you listed a bunch of players with Latin American backgrounds that we either drafted, traded for, or picked up on waivers as a counter to my point.

 

Again, there are two sources of talent (at the lowest level) and we basically didn't use one for a long period of time. That's going to cost you in the long-run and it has. We will never know what trades KW could have made in recent years if he had a few more prospects in the system.

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't understand how KW can be completely absolved of the Wilder fiasco. As the one who did the hiring he has a share of the responsibility.

Having you ever interviewed someone before? Did you put them through a polygraph test or an extensive psych evaluation? How was KW supposed to know Wilder would commit massive fraud? From what I know of Wilder, he had a strong résumé at the time of the hire and had nothing in his background to suggest he would be capable of unethical behavior. The guy was obviously a very capable liar/con-man and fooled numerous people in baseball. I can't hold it against KW unless there was some warning that this guy may be a scumbag.

[caulfield12]

Other than Ramirez & Viciedo, you named zero Latin American players that we actually signed as amatuer free agents. I have no idea why you listed a bunch of players with Latin American backgrounds that we either drafted, traded for, or picked up on waivers as a counter to my point.

 

Again, there are two sources of talent (at the lowest level) and we basically didn't use one for a long period of time. That's going to cost you in the long-run and it has. We will never know what trades KW could have made in recent years if he had a few more prospects in the system.

 

 

Well, we do know that. We probably would have Miguel Cabrera at 3B instead of DET.

 

We could have kept Daniel Hudson or Gio.

 

We could have included prospects so we could get something back in return for Edwin Jackson when he was traded to TOR.

 

 

I listed those players because we have/had advantages in other areas to counterbalance our weaknesses...at least until this year.

 

You could just as easily say we've done a horrible job scouting and bringing in Asian players, with the exceptions of Takatsu and Iguchi.

1) Cuban connection

2) Training staff (fewest DL trips, pitchers healthy for the most part since 2003)

3) Stability in front office/ownership group

4) Chicago market/WGN/Comcast ownership stake...ability to allocate higher payrolls with lower attendance

5) Our ability to identify and procure hitters and pitchers from other organizations

6) Don Cooper

 

 

The Minnesota Twins, for example, had the advantage of a new stadium and the star power of Joe Mauer (a bit of a Catch-22), but they've still lost 90+ games for two seasons in a row with a much better scouting and development system than ours, better drafting, and a better organizational philosophy.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

The question of who to blame was yours.

 

 

But my follow-up question is does it really matter to you NOW that KW is still associated with the White Sox?

 

If the whole Wilder situation never happened, you'd be okay with him?

 

 

 

Keep in mind, Bowden and Jose Rijo with the Nationals were also targets in the skimming scandal, and the Nationals are doing just fine without a slew of Dominican prospects (response to other post in this thread).

[Marty34]

Having you ever interviewed someone before? Did you put them through a polygraph test or an extensive psych evaluation? How was KW supposed to know Wilder would commit massive fraud? From what I know of Wilder, he had a strong résumé at the time of the hire and had nothing in his background to suggest he would be capable of unethical behavior. The guy was obviously a very capable liar/con-man and fooled numerous people in baseball. I can't hold it against KW unless there was some warning that this guy may be a scumbag.

 

It's more of a buck stops at Williams desk type of thing.

[The Ginger Kid]

For the current state of the team I blame...

De Aza

Keppinger

Dunn

Flowers

Wise

Konerko

 

They've played really bad.

 

I also blame Beckham and Viciedo for getting hurt. That's made them a worse team.

 

With the way they're pitching the Sox should be at least a .500 team.

[iamshack]

I chose no one is to blame...they are pretty much right where I figured they would be.

[Brian]

I voted players just because this is one of the worst defensive Sox teams I remember.

[Rowand44]

Jesus.