Who do you blame for the current state of the team?

[max power]

Its between williams and reinsdorf. Whichever is responsible for our policies in spending money in the draft and in other amateur signings.

 

I don't think this team is in very bad shape though. A few good moves and we are contending again. Unfortunately, we can't seem to make a single good move for our offense on the free agent market lately.

Edited May 6, 2013 by MAX

[caulfield12]

Well, #1, the Twins are not a poor team. There is plenty of money within the organization and they can maintain a $90-100 mill payroll pretty easily. And #2, this pretty much gives you no reason to ever bring up attendance again considering the Twins outdraw the White Sox by a large margin yet they can still outspend the same Twins team.

 

 

Not exactly.

 

I wouldn't have to bring up attendance if the two organizations were actually equal.

 

The fact of the matter is we've typically had to spend 25-35% more money to compete with them, with the exception of 2005.

 

They won six division titles in nine years spending half of what were spending during that time...now, with the Mauer deal, it's closer to 75-85%.

 

We're not close to being efficient like they were from 2002-2006.

 

Williams won two divisions (one World Series) in 12 years on the job. I'll even give you 3/13 if you want to count 2000 in KW's column and not Schueler's.

 

Just staying even means death for the Sox. While we've been treading water, they've added Sano, Buxton, Hicks and a slew of upper echelon prospects to replenish their system. They've taken their lumps for 2 years and are still having pitching issues (and will continue to have them), but they're a lot closer to turning the corner and being competitive than we are looking at the immediate/short-term future of 2014 or 2015.

 

Edited May 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

That post confuses me so much. It just seems so off-topic.

 

The Twins are not poor TODAY. I don't care what they did in 2004.

The Twins outdraw the White Sox TODAY. I don't care by what percentage the White Sox outspent the Twins in the early to mid '00s.

The White Sox still outspend the Twins TODAY so, comparatively speaking, attendance is not a big issue for the White Sox. It would be nice to draw more, but it's best to get the team winning first.

 

Oh, and frankly, from a marketing perspective, the teams are nowhere near equal. The Twins have one of the most marketable players in baseball in Joe Mauer as well as a still relatively new stadium. The White Sox have virtually no marketability at all and play in a stadium that was known as being the last cookie-cutter stadium in the majors. From a major league talent perspective, I'd still say the White Sox are better, but if chickens*** is better than horses***, does either party really win?

[Kyyle23]

Not exactly.

 

I wouldn't have to bring up attendance if the two organizations were actually equal.

 

The fact of the matter is we've typically had to spend 25-35% more money to compete with them, with the exception of 2005.

 

They won six division titles in nine years spending half of what were spending during that time...now, with the Mauer deal, it's closer to 75-85%.

 

We're not close to being efficient like they were from 2002-2006.

 

Williams won two divisions (one World Series) in 12 years on the job. I'll even give you 3/13 if you want to count 2000 in KW's column and not Schueler's.

 

Just staying even means death for the Sox. While we've been treading water, they've added Sano, Buxton, Hicks and a slew of upper echelon prospects to replenish their system. They've taken their lumps for 2 years and are still having pitching issues (and will continue to have them), but they're a lot closer to turning the corner and being competitive than we are looking at the immediate/short-term future of 2014 or 2015.

 

Prospects are only prospects until they produce. All you do is talk this up and it really means nothing at this point, the Twins are still a team that was basically blown up after being terrible last season, and need a lot of things to break the right way in order to get to .500 this season.

 

As always, the grass is always greener

[SoxAce]

Jeffrey Loria

 

witesoxfan

[Balta1701]

Prospects are only prospects until they produce. All you do is talk this up and it really means nothing at this point, the Twins are still a team that was basically blown up after being terrible last season, and need a lot of things to break the right way in order to get to .500 this season.

 

As always, the grass is always greener

The Twins have only had 2 straight sub-70 win seasons. Clearly they're on the path to a championship.

[caulfield12]

That post confuses me so much. It just seems so off-topic.

 

The Twins are not poor TODAY. I don't care what they did in 2004.

The Twins outdraw the White Sox TODAY. I don't care by what percentage the White Sox outspent the Twins in the early to mid '00s.

The White Sox still outspend the Twins TODAY so, comparatively speaking, attendance is not a big issue for the White Sox. It would be nice to draw more, but it's best to get the team winning first.

 

Oh, and frankly, from a marketing perspective, the teams are nowhere near equal. The Twins have one of the most marketable players in baseball in Joe Mauer as well as a still relatively new stadium. The White Sox have virtually no marketability at all and play in a stadium that was known as being the last cookie-cutter stadium in the majors. From a major league talent perspective, I'd still say the White Sox are better, but if chickens*** is better than horses***, does either party really win?

 

 

If we had prospects we could trade, we could fix our starting line-up...or "reload" instead of rebuilding.

 

If we had position prospects who were ready to contribute to our team at the major league level, we wouldn't have to sell off contributing parts of our team or cut veteran salaries.

 

(And we could have outbid the Tigers' offer of Maybin/Miller for Cabrera and everything would have turned out differently).

 

As we learned during the KW years, it doesn't matter if those prospects PAN out. It only matters that we were able to find willing trade partners who believed they would. Part of it's marketing/reputation....the Callises, Keith Laws, Gammons, Jayson Stark, Baseball America, BP lists, etc.

 

Right now, other than Erik Johnson, the cupboard's pretty bare.

Edited May 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

If we had prospects we could trade, we could fix our starting line-up...or "reload" instead of rebuilding.

 

If we had position prospects who were ready to contribute to our team at the major league level, we wouldn't have to sell off contributing parts of our team or cut veteran salaries.

 

(And we could have outbid the Tigers' offer of Maybin/Miller for Cabrera and everything would have turned out differently).

 

As we learned during the KW years, it doesn't matter if those prospects PAN out. It only matters that we were able to find willing trade partners who believed they would. Part of it's marketing/reputation....the Callises, Keith Laws, Gammons, Jayson Stark, Baseball America, BP lists, etc.

 

Right now, other than Erik Johnson, the cupboard's pretty bare.

 

Courtney Hawkins has a bad month with strikeouts (when he still hit for a s***load of power) and suddenly he's chopped liver.

 

Beyond that, there were people talking about making trades all offseason and, amongst all the rumors I heard, there was only one that had any amount of smoke possible that I thought sounded legitimate that I would have made simply because this team is in such a volatile state right now. There's still time for them to turn it around and get hot, and there's still plenty of time for them to stay cold and get to a point where selling pieces off becomes logical (because, despite all of your beliefs (the general "you") trading pieces off right now is simply not logical).

 

At some point, it just becomes impossible to reload like that, and I think that was part of the reason Williams stepped away/got promoted and why Hahn took over - there's simply little that can be done without rebuilding to some extent at this point, so you may as well let the new guy get in there.

[fathom]

I blame the Tigers as well, as it seems like a very tough task to put together a roster that can win the division over them.

[witesoxfan]

I blame the Tigers as well, as it seems like a very tough task to put together a roster that can win the division over them.

 

As a Sox fan, the most frustrating thing over the last 3-5 years has been the ability for the Sox and Tigers to make competitive and comparative moves and to see the effect of those moves have such drastically different results. The Tigers signed Victor Martinez with the Sox signing Dunn, and Martinez was great and then hurt, while Dunn was awful and then decent. As a result of Martinez getting hurt, the Tigers added Fielder to an already deep lineup, and then continued adding.

 

Everything the Tigers touch turns to gold while anything the Sox touch crumbles within a year or two.

[SoxAce]

witesoxfan

 

Nearly 4 hours later, still haven't changed my mind.

[witesoxfan]

Nearly 4 hours later, still haven't changed my mind.

 

I GIVE YOU CREW CUT MISTER

[southsider2k5]

In this group, how can you blame anyone but the players. With all of the errors, base running mistakes, and other stupidity, it is all on the players.

[Balta1701]

In this group, how can you blame anyone but the players. With all of the errors, base running mistakes, and other stupidity, it is all on the players.

I still come back to these same players playing lights out fundamental baseball last year and wonder what was done differently by the manager during ST.

[witesoxfan]

In this group, how can you blame anyone but the players. With all of the errors, base running mistakes, and other stupidity, it is all on the players.

 

Honestly, we're lucky we have Flowers in here instead of Pierzynski, because Pierzynski could make the chemistry of the clubhouse much worse because he's a butthead and he has not been nearly as clutch as Flowers has. They'd be worse with Pierzynski.

[southsider2k5]

I still come back to these same players playing lights out fundamental baseball last year and wonder what was done differently by the manager during ST.

 

I'm sure Ventura was telling them things like "get picked off" and "blow through the cutoff man"

[Balta1701]

I'm sure Ventura was telling them things like "get picked off" and "blow through the cutoff man"

No, but "Failing to practice hitting the cutoff man enough" and "Failing to practice baserunning" could certainly lead to those end results just as readily.