Sox have good young pitching, not much else

[VAfan]

Forgive me.

 

It's still early May, but already my mind drifts to the rebuild that is coming soon for the Chicago White Sox. It's the rebuild that Kenny Williams never undertook, because Kenny always wanted to retool and tweak, not rebuild. But Kenny's not the GM anymore. And unless he tries to control Rick Hahn, I think Hahn is not the same guy. He's going to realize soon that more significant changes are going to be necessary before the Sox can compete again.

 

What are the Sox' assets?

 

1. Sale, Quintana, Santiago. Three young lefties who are cheap and under Sox control for several more years. Quintana hasn't done it for a full season yet, nor has Santiago, but both have pitched enough very good games to be excited about their upside. Chris Sale was a Cy Young candidate his first year as a starter.

 

2. Alex Rios. By far the Sox best hitter. Not sure how much longer he's tied up, but I expect the Sox will keep him just so they have a quality hitter, and because their young outfielders aren't ready yet.

 

3. Dayan Viciedo. A young power hitter who still needs to improve plate discipline, but the only other hitter on the team with offensive value. At least potential offensive value.

 

4. Young bullpen arms. Reed, Jones, Veal, et al. Jones is having a shaky year, but he has the stuff to get it figured out.

 

5. Alexei Ramirez. Great defensive shortstop. Led AL SS in RBI in 2012 despite a down year for his power numbers. Sox don't have anyone to replace him, so I'd keep him.

 

6. Conor Gillaspie. A potential everyday third baseman. Lefty bat is sorely needed. Would like him to have more power, but he looks like the best hitter other than Rios on the team right now.

 

These are the guys you are likely to keep during a rebuild. The next rung is guys who might have trade value.

 

7. Paul Konerko. With his contract up, and his slow start this year to go along with his injury-hampered finish last year, it looks like Paul Konerko's great run in Chicago is going to be over. I really like him because he's the only player to consistently come sign baseballs for my son when we catch the Sox in Baltimore or DC. Classy guy. I'll be sorry to see him go, but it's time to deal him at the deadline.

 

8. Jake Peavy. I'm torn about this one, mostly because Peavy took a bit of discount to stay in Chicago, and really wanted to help the team. The problem is he's only signed for two years, it's a big contract, he's pitching really well to maximize his trade value, and the Sox aren't like to contend this year or next in a rebuild, so you might as well move him. He's too old and with too much injury history to want to extend past this deal, so he isn't going to be a cornerstone guy when we're good again. But I'm still torn.

 

9. John Danks. He's going to have to come back and prove he can pitch again, which might not be soon enough for him to have much value as a deadline deal guy. But Chicago has to get out from under his contract. He's just not worth it. As a lefty, he should still have value.

 

10. Alejandro De Aza. As a center fielder and lead off guy, he should have trade value. Since the Sox have several minor league outfielders who might take his place, he's a candidate to move. Dewayne Wise can fill in until the young guys are ready.

 

11. Gordon Beckham/Jeff Keppinger. We just signed Keppinger to play third. But it appears that Gillaspie is a better choice there, for a few reasons -- better defender, lefty, better hitter at the moment. When Beckham comes back, the Sox have a choice. Only one of these guys should be in the running for second base; the other should likely be dealt. With Sanchez in the minors, perhaps both will be gone soon. My own take is that Beckham hasn't proven he's worth an elevated contract. I'd give him one last chance to see if he can cut it this year. Sox really needed him to be a young building block. He's got the D, just not the O. Too bad.

 

12. Matt Thornton and Jesse Crain. These guys will have some value at the trade deadline, and absolutely must be moved. If you are doing a full rebuild, you might as well move Matt Lindstrom too, since he's 33 and could bring something back.

 

Then there is the worthless guy the Sox just need to deal because he's killing the offense.

 

13. Adam Dunn. The Sox have to hope he pulls out of his tailspin and puts up decent HR and walk totals by the end of July so that someone will take him and at least some of his contract off the Sox hands. If not, the Sox may just need to eat his deal. Because he's death to this team just like he (and Rios) killed us in 2011. It's just a horrible message to everyone else to trot him up to hit clean-up every day.

 

Finally, there are the space fillers who you keep until you have a replacement.

 

14. Tyler Flowers. He would be an acceptable starting catcher on a team where everyone else could hit. On the weak-hitting Sox, they can't really afford his bat. Still, he could perhaps pull out of his hitting funk, and in the meantime, he's a good defensive catcher on a cheap deal. Even if the Sox upgrade, Flowers might stay on as an above-average backup.

 

15. Dylan Axelrod Axelrod has pitched very well so far. But he's never going to be much more than he has been -- a fill-in pitcher. Still, there's no reason to dump him until you have something better, since he's cheap and likely has little trade value.

 

It's really pathetic to write such a post on May 8th. The Sox are only 5.5 games out, just 4 games under .500, with very good pitching (4th in the AL), especially now that Santiago has taken Floyd's spot in the rotation.

 

The problem is that the hitting is just horrendously awful -- last in the AL -- 60 runs behind the Tigers in only 31 games. And it's not correctable. Sure, Konerko will hit better than a .646 OPS, Jeff Keppinger is not a Mendoza line hitter, De Aza can hit better, Rios could get hot, and Viciedo could get healthy and add pop to the lineup. But that's a lot of ifs. Even if all that happened, we aren't catching the Tigers or any wild card contender.

 

We have 7 regulars with OBPs below .300 -- Keppinger, Viciedo, Dunn, Flowers, Konerko, De Aza, and Ramirez. Only Gillaspie and Rios among the regulars get on base at a respectable pace.

 

But what's the main reason for a rebuild? It's because Konerko is done, and so is Adam Dunn. We need studs to replace both of them, and even then we'd need better complementary pieces to compete. We really need to get away from the low average, low OBP, high strike-out power guys. Power is nice, especially in US Cellular, but it's not everything. Our offense needs to be much more well-rounded. Guys with pop, OBP AND average, like Paul Konerko in his good years, or Rios after he sorted out his hitting stance.

 

If you made these deals, and also took Floyd off the books, the Sox would suddenly have a lot of money available. And with a young pitching core, could potentially rebound reasonably quickly.

 

So, while this is WAY TOO EARLY -- feel free to rip me for it -- just save this and return to it in July when the firesale may commence.

 

 

 

[greg775]

Forgive me.

 

It's still early May, but already my mind drifts to the rebuild that is coming soon for the Chicago White Sox. It's the rebuild that Kenny Williams never undertook, because Kenny always wanted to retool and tweak, not rebuild. But Kenny's not the GM anymore. And unless he tries to control Rick Hahn, I think Hahn is not the same guy. He's going to realize soon that more significant changes are going to be necessary before the Sox can compete again.

 

What are the Sox' assets?

 

1. Sale, Quintana, Santiago. Three young lefties who are cheap and under Sox control for several more years. Quintana hasn't done it for a full season yet, nor has Santiago, but both have pitched enough very good games to be excited about their upside. Chris Sale was a Cy Young candidate his first year as a starter.

 

2. Alex Rios. By far the Sox best hitter. Not sure how much longer he's tied up, but I expect the Sox will keep him just so they have a quality hitter, and because their young outfielders aren't ready yet.

 

3. Dayan Viciedo. A young power hitter who still needs to improve plate discipline, but the only other hitter on the team with offensive value. At least potential offensive value.

 

4. Young bullpen arms. Reed, Jones, Veal, et al. Jones is having a shaky year, but he has the stuff to get it figured out.

 

5. Alexei Ramirez. Great defensive shortstop. Led AL SS in RBI in 2012 despite a down year for his power numbers. Sox don't have anyone to replace him, so I'd keep him.

 

6. Conor Gillaspie. A potential everyday third baseman. Lefty bat is sorely needed. Would like him to have more power, but he looks like the best hitter other than Rios on the team right now.

 

These are the guys you are likely to keep during a rebuild. The next rung is guys who might have trade value.

 

7. Paul Konerko. With his contract up, and his slow start this year to go along with his injury-hampered finish last year, it looks like Paul Konerko's great run in Chicago is going to be over. I really like him because he's the only player to consistently come sign baseballs for my son when we catch the Sox in Baltimore or DC. Classy guy. I'll be sorry to see him go, but it's time to deal him at the deadline.

 

8. Jake Peavy. I'm torn about this one, mostly because Peavy took a bit of discount to stay in Chicago, and really wanted to help the team. The problem is he's only signed for two years, it's a big contract, he's pitching really well to maximize his trade value, and the Sox aren't like to contend this year or next in a rebuild, so you might as well move him. He's too old and with too much injury history to want to extend past this deal, so he isn't going to be a cornerstone guy when we're good again. But I'm still torn.

 

9. John Danks. He's going to have to come back and prove he can pitch again, which might not be soon enough for him to have much value as a deadline deal guy. But Chicago has to get out from under his contract. He's just not worth it. As a lefty, he should still have value.

 

10. Alejandro De Aza. As a center fielder and lead off guy, he should have trade value. Since the Sox have several minor league outfielders who might take his place, he's a candidate to move. Dewayne Wise can fill in until the young guys are ready.

 

11. Gordon Beckham/Jeff Keppinger. We just signed Keppinger to play third. But it appears that Gillaspie is a better choice there, for a few reasons -- better defender, lefty, better hitter at the moment. When Beckham comes back, the Sox have a choice. Only one of these guys should be in the running for second base; the other should likely be dealt. With Sanchez in the minors, perhaps both will be gone soon. My own take is that Beckham hasn't proven he's worth an elevated contract. I'd give him one last chance to see if he can cut it this year. Sox really needed him to be a young building block. He's got the D, just not the O. Too bad.

 

12. Matt Thornton and Jesse Crain. These guys will have some value at the trade deadline, and absolutely must be moved. If you are doing a full rebuild, you might as well move Matt Lindstrom too, since he's 33 and could bring something back.

 

Then there is the worthless guy the Sox just need to deal because he's killing the offense.

 

13. Adam Dunn. The Sox have to hope he pulls out of his tailspin and puts up decent HR and walk totals by the end of July so that someone will take him and at least some of his contract off the Sox hands. If not, the Sox may just need to eat his deal. Because he's death to this team just like he (and Rios) killed us in 2011. It's just a horrible message to everyone else to trot him up to hit clean-up every day.

 

Finally, there are the space fillers who you keep until you have a replacement.

 

14. Tyler Flowers. He would be an acceptable starting catcher on a team where everyone else could hit. On the weak-hitting Sox, they can't really afford his bat. Still, he could perhaps pull out of his hitting funk, and in the meantime, he's a good defensive catcher on a cheap deal. Even if the Sox upgrade, Flowers might stay on as an above-average backup.

 

15. Dylan Axelrod Axelrod has pitched very well so far. But he's never going to be much more than he has been -- a fill-in pitcher. Still, there's no reason to dump him until you have something better, since he's cheap and likely has little trade value.

 

It's really pathetic to write such a post on May 8th. The Sox are only 5.5 games out, just 4 games under .500, with very good pitching (4th in the AL), especially now that Santiago has taken Floyd's spot in the rotation.

 

The problem is that the hitting is just horrendously awful -- last in the AL -- 60 runs behind the Tigers in only 31 games. And it's not correctable. Sure, Konerko will hit better than a .646 OPS, Jeff Keppinger is not a Mendoza line hitter, De Aza can hit better, Rios could get hot, and Viciedo could get healthy and add pop to the lineup. But that's a lot of ifs. Even if all that happened, we aren't catching the Tigers or any wild card contender.

 

We have 7 regulars with OBPs below .300 -- Keppinger, Viciedo, Dunn, Flowers, Konerko, De Aza, and Ramirez. Only Gillaspie and Rios among the regulars get on base at a respectable pace.

 

But what's the main reason for a rebuild? It's because Konerko is done, and so is Adam Dunn. We need studs to replace both of them, and even then we'd need better complementary pieces to compete. We really need to get away from the low average, low OBP, high strike-out power guys. Power is nice, especially in US Cellular, but it's not everything. Our offense needs to be much more well-rounded. Guys with pop, OBP AND average, like Paul Konerko in his good years, or Rios after he sorted out his hitting stance.

 

If you made these deals, and also took Floyd off the books, the Sox would suddenly have a lot of money available. And with a young pitching core, could potentially rebound reasonably quickly.

 

So, while this is WAY TOO EARLY -- feel free to rip me for it -- just save this and return to it in July when the firesale may commence.

 

I agree we need to trade the high paid guys and get some newer, younger high paid guys in free agency which is a crapshoot. I'll trust Hahn whatever his plan is. He's supposed to be a good GM, so we shall see what he comes up with. Hopefully his big splashes will be a lot better than Dunn.

[Andrew]

I don't get the point of this.

 

I mean - Sure, many things I agree with, some I don't...what do you want from this post?

 

This is a horribly put together team (IMO). I've said it too.... when they were only 10 games in.

 

What are you...like...trying to accomplish with this? Are you going to tell a bunch of guys/gals the stats?

 

We can ALL see them.

 

We also know who KW was, he played his chips for a winner year in/out... like what is the f***ING POINT of your post???

 

Team sucks - what do you suggest?

 

GTFO.

 

Stupid waste of time.

[greg775]

I don't get the point of this.

 

I mean - Sure, many things I agree with, some I don't...what do you want from this post?

 

This is a horribly put together team (IMO). I've said it too.... when they were only 10 games in.

 

What are you...like...trying to accomplish with this? Are you going to tell a bunch of guys/gals the stats?

 

We can ALL see them.

 

We also know who KW was, he played his chips for a winner year in/out... like what is the f***ING POINT of your post???

 

Team sucks - what do you suggest?

 

GTFO.

 

Stupid waste of time.

 

I was going to rip you and say, 'You don't have to read long posts," but your post was entertaining for some reason. I kind of liked it.

[Andrew]

I was going to rip you and say, 'You don't have to read long posts," but your post was entertaining for some reason. I kind of liked it.

 

Who cares.

 

You don't know s*** about Baseball.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Andrew

[caulfield12]

As someone who's prone to do the same thing, there's not really any point in getting upset with VAFAN or cursing at him.

 

Now every post has to present 3-5 "answers" to all the problems?

 

I think that's the job of the front office, not a messageboard.

 

There have been some good ideas or possible names (for 2014) mentioned in the last few days....McCann, Utley, Morales, etc.

 

 

Everyone's frustrated, everyone's upset....and there are no easy answers or quick fixes. It's the same situation the Angels currently find themselves in, with a bloated payroll and the worst minor league system in MLB, worse than ours now.

 

Even national baseball writers are begging us to dump Dunn without looking at the financial repercussions of that.

 

THE MAIN POINTS:

 

SOX have a solid core of young pitchers, especially if Danks can be a reasonable facsimile of past self.

SOX have some extra pieces in the minors, relievers and veterans they can deal if they so choose.

The only killer contracts are Dunn and Danks.

SOX are basically in the same place they were record-wise to start 2012, it's just that DET is playing a lot better and the acknowledged favorite...and they proved down the stretch, head to head vs. the Sox, and in the playoffs they were the better team.

 

[caulfield12]

Who cares.

 

You don't know s*** about Baseball.

 

 

Are you really trying to get suspended from the board?

 

I'm not a moderator, but what's the point of being so upset with other posters? Why even come here?

[Jordan4life_2007]

lol. Is that Brandofan again? What a f***in' loser if so.

[Andrew]

Are you really trying to get suspended from the board?

 

I'm not a moderator, but what's the point of being so upset with other posters? Why even come here?

 

This a fan-board, right?

 

If you have to ask, you're full of s*** too. Go to WSI.

 

I invest in the Sox, year in, year out.

 

Ok by you, Caulfield?

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

I guess if I could only have one thing it would be pitching, so that's kind of good. Has anyone actually seen a good amount of Carlos Sanchez to say what he is one way or the other? I'm sick of scouting reports, they're usually full of bulls***, and on Sanchez I've seen anything from not good enough defensively to stick at short to basically a terrific shortstop. The reason I bring this up is that if the Sox have a young, very good starting staff, plus a good young bullpen, and potentially a couple decent (Flowers becoming a league average player at some point?) position players who are young, cheap, and under control at very key/hard to fill positions, then things really aren't that bleak. If we mainly need some 1B/DH/corner OF types plus a 2B then we can do that a lot easier than building a pitching staff and acquiring some pretty decent skill position players.

[Andrew]

As someone who's prone to do the same thing, there's not really any point in getting upset with VAFAN or cursing at him.

 

Now every post has to present 3-5 "answers" to all the problems?

 

I think that's the job of the front office, not a messageboard.

 

There have been some good ideas or possible names (for 2014) mentioned in the last few days....McCann, Utley, Morales, etc.

 

 

Everyone's frustrated, everyone's upset....and there are no easy answers or quick fixes. It's the same situation the Angels currently find themselves in, with a bloated payroll and the worst minor league system in MLB, worse than ours now.

 

Even national baseball writers are begging us to dump Dunn without looking at the financial repercussions of that.

 

THE MAIN POINTS:

 

SOX have a solid core of young pitchers, especially if Danks can be a reasonable facsimile of past self.

SOX have some extra pieces in the minors, relievers and veterans they can deal if they so choose.

The only killer contracts are Dunn and Danks.

SOX are basically in the same place they were record-wise to start 2012, it's just that DET is playing a lot better and the acknowledged favorite...and they proved down the stretch, head to head vs. the Sox, and in the playoffs they were the better team.

 

Right, so all of this is bulls***. Nobody should listen to this.

 

The Sox have had the ability to draft pretty high since 06.

 

Instead, they sign agents that are always OLD, SLOW, big-name guys..... to get butts in seats.

 

Don't challenge me, Caufield - I'll give you the list.

 

The Sox have....... absolutly s*** in their system, perenially rated one of the WORST systems to bring up players.

 

I don't even know what possesses you to chanllenge these facts.....

 

You can say what you want, but as long as this team doesn't draft smart and groom, we can expect the same.

[IlliniKrush]

"But it was a damn good post" and then 300+ more.

[Jerksticks]

I guess if I could only have one thing it would be pitching, so that's kind of good. Has anyone actually seen a good amount of Carlos Sanchez to say what he is one way or the other? I'm sick of scouting reports, they're usually full of bulls***, and on Sanchez I've seen anything from not good enough defensively to stick at short to basically a terrific shortstop. The reason I bring this up is that if the Sox have a young, very good starting staff, plus a good young bullpen, and potentially a couple decent (Flowers becoming a league average player at some point?) position players who are young, cheap, and under control at very key/hard to fill positions, then things really aren't that bleak. If we mainly need some 1B/DH/corner OF types plus a 2B then we can do that a lot easier than building a pitching staff and acquiring some pretty decent skill position players.

 

I find myself in line with this type of thinking usually.

 

Since we seem to have nice stables of pitching at all levels we will always be somewhat competitive. Dunn crippled the franchise and ruined going on 3 years now any chance we've had as a team. It's almost over. We've got some good young position talent at key positions. I think KW's approach was always correct and still is- we just need to hit on the FAs instead of ruining Paulie's twilight years with a selfish idiot like Dunn batting next to him. We need to pay for 1 huge impact bat. 2 would be nice but 1 will probably do, supplemented with improving core young guys. The pitching will always be good enough IMO.

[Andrew]

This turd of a thread has not a single good post.

[Andrew]

I find myself in line with this type of thinking usually.

 

Since we seem to have nice stables of pitching at all levels we will always be somewhat competitive. Dunn crippled the franchise and ruined going on 3 years now any chance we've had as a team. It's almost over. We've got some good young position talent at key positions. I think KW's approach was always correct and still is- we just need to hit on the FAs instead of ruining Paulie's twilight years with a selfish idiot like Dunn batting next to him. We need to pay for 1 huge impact bat. 2 would be nice but 1 will probably do, supplemented with improving core young guys. The pitching will always be good enough IMO.

 

 

Wow.

 

Well, that there is THE definiition of insanity.

 

[caulfield12]

This a fan-board, right?

 

If you have to ask, you're full of s*** too. Go to WSI.

 

I invest in the Sox, year in, year out.

 

Ok by you, Caulfield?

 

 

Uh-oh.

 

Well, I already got banned and then asked to be banned for life for defending my friend (who I invited to join because I was naive enough to think there was a "fair/fun" place to talk about our favorite sports team) from being attacked by the moderators there.

 

I live in China, already.

 

I don't need to be persecuted on a website as well, lol. Big Brother can stay at WSI forever.

 

I'm sure that board is loans of fun these days as everyone in control is parroting Chris Rongey/Mark Parent lines of "just be patient."

 

[caulfield12]

Right, so all of this is bulls***. Nobody should listen to this.

 

The Sox have had the ability to draft pretty high since 06.

 

Instead, they sign agents that are always OLD, SLOW, big-name guys..... to get butts in seats.

 

Don't challenge me, Caufield - I'll give you the list.

 

The Sox have....... absolutly s*** in their system, perenially rated one of the WORST systems to bring up players.

 

I don't even know what possesses you to chanllenge these facts.....

 

You can say what you want, but as long as this team doesn't draft smart and groom, we can expect the same.

 

 

Those same SLOW guys like Jermaine Dye and AJ Pierzynski helped us win a World Series, lol.

 

If you want to attack Dunn/KW, be my guest.

 

The Jim Thome deal was nothing but a good one for the White Sox. You can't play small ball at USCF on a consistent basis in the summer months and win, you have to have some thump in the middle of the line-up.

 

Last year, we had five guys with 25 homers (Rios/Konerko/Dunn/AJ/Viciedo), and Youkilis as well. It's not coincidence we were in first place for most of the season with that kind of production, just like 2000.

 

 

We've actually produced in the top 5-7 of all minor league systems since 1993 in terms of players drafted/developed by the Sox at least reaching the majors. But there are no superstars.

 

However, there's no arguing what we did with our bullpen last season, and that almost entirely came from the minor leagues (Reed, Jones, Quintana, Santiago, Omogrosso, Veal, Septimo, Heath, J. Marinez, etc.)

 

Pitching-wise, developing Brandon McCarthy, Daniel Hudson, Gio Gonzalez, Clayton Richard and Lucas Harrell, to name just a few, isn't bad at all.

 

 

Finally, the only time they had a Top 10 pick since the late 80's was Gordon Beckham in 2008.

 

If you think "pretty high" is 13th-26th, well, you don't know much about the MLB draft then.

 

Sure, there's a Mike Trout here or there (at the end of the 1st round)...but 85% of the truly impact talent is usually in the first 10-12 picks.

 

 

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

 

[caulfield12]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/29486/chris-carter

 

 

It is a bit ironic that one of the "better" hitters we produced over the last 5 years is putting up the strangest stat line this side of Adam Dunn 2011-13.

 

Guess he would fit right in on the White Sox.

[Andrew]

Those same SLOW guys like Jermaine Dye and AJ Pierzynski helped us win a World Series, lol.

 

If you want to attack Dunn/KW, be my guest.

 

The Jim Thome deal was nothing but a good one for the White Sox. You can't play small ball at USCF on a consistent basis in the summer months and win, you have to have some thump in the middle of the line-up.

 

Last year, we had five guys with 25 homers (Rios/Konerko/Dunn/AJ/Viciedo), and Youkilis as well. It's not coincidence we were in first place for most of the season with that kind of production, just like 2000.

 

 

We've actually produced in the top 5-7 of all minor league systems since 1993 in terms of players drafted/developed by the Sox at least reaching the majors. But there are no superstars.

 

However, there's no arguing what we did with our bullpen last season, and that almost entirely came from the minor leagues (Reed, Jones, Quintana, Santiago, Omogrosso, Veal, Septimo, Heath, J. Marinez, etc.)

 

Pitching-wise, developing Brandon McCarthy, Daniel Hudson, Gio Gonzalez, Clayton Richard and Lucas Harrell, to name just a few, isn't bad at all.

 

 

Finally, the only time they had a Top 10 pick since the late 80's was Gordon Beckham in 2008.

 

If you think "pretty high" is 13th-26th, well, you don't know much about the MLB draft then.

 

Sure, there's a Mike Trout here or there (at the end of the 1st round)...but 85% of the truly impact talent is usually in the first 10-12 picks.

 

I came.

 

[The Ginger Kid]

Someone's going to feel pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty stupid when the Sox win the World Series this year. Hmm?

[Andrew]

Only if they don't watch Caulfied show #AWESOMEWHITESOX

Edited May 9, 2013 by Andrew

[caulfield12]

Only if they don't watch Caulfied show #AWESOMEWHITESOX

 

 

Since The Great Gatsby is coming out Friday, maybe you should also pick up a copy of Catcher in the Rye so you can spell my name correctly, lol.

 

 

[Leonard Zelig]

[JohnCangelosi]

This turd of a thread has not a single good post.

With yours at the top of the list