Should White Sox Hold or Fold?

[southsider2k5]

If we trade Ramirez, who plays SS?

 

Are you ready for the Jeff Keppinger or Tyler Greene era?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Probably not. He doesn't really have a full time spot for them though.

 

I know that. He's stuck behind craig. I just wanted to know if there was any substance here.

[Dick Allen]

Are you ready for the Jeff Keppinger or Tyler Greene era?

I know one poster who is. He's salivating just at the thought of 100 loss seasons.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Are you ready for the Jeff Keppinger or Tyler Greene era?

 

 

So does this mean you wouldn't trade Ramirez for Matt Adams?

[Jake]

I have to think the Cards would like Alexei, but who knows. They'd probably like to get at some of our relievers too.

[TaylorStSox]

Are you ready for the Jeff Keppinger or Tyler Greene era?

It was a loaded question. I was waiting for somebody to say Beckham so I could get a good laugh in before work.

[Dick Allen]

It was a loaded question. I was waiting for somebody to say Beckham so I could get a good laugh in before work.

He is probably the best in house option. If he would make you laugh, the others would make you cry.

[caulfield12]

It was a loaded question. I was waiting for somebody to say Beckham so I could get a good laugh in before work.

 

 

If we use that $31 million in savings PRODUCTIVELY, yes, you can definitely make the argument:

 

$31 million + Gordon Beckham/Carlos Sanchez at SS + Matt Adams at 1B for the next 5-7 years >>> Ramirez with an albatross contract in 2014 or 2015 + Keppinger/Beckham at 2B + Viciedo/Dunn/???? at 1B.

 

You're free to laugh at that, but we might not be laughing a year or two from now if we don't do something and just sit on all our declining assets until we can't get anything at all back in return for them.

 

 

Or written another way, Beckham/Sanchez at SS, Chase Utley/Dan Uggla at 2B + Matt Adams at 1B for 5-7 years >>> STANDING PAT

Edited May 15, 2013 by caulfield12

[TaylorStSox]

If we use that $31 million in savings PRODUCTIVELY, yes, you can definitely make the argument:

 

$31 million + Gordon Beckham/Carlos Sanchez at SS + Matt Adams at 1B for the next 5-7 years >>> Ramirez with an albatross contract in 2014 or 2015 + Keppinger/Beckham at 2B + Viciedo/Dunn/???? at 1B.

 

You're free to laugh at that, but we might not be laughing a year or two from now if we don't do something and just sit on all our declining assets until we can't get anything at all back in return for them.

 

 

Or written another way, Beckham/Sanchez at SS, Chase Utley/Dan Uggla at 2B + Matt Adams at 1B for 5-7 years >>> STANDING PAT

I don't care about money, Beckham can't play short. He's a statue at second.

[witesoxfan]

I don't care about money, Beckham can't play short. He's a statue at second.

 

I do believe you are one of the few who believes this.

[Marty34]

Who cares who plays shortstop. I mean seriously.

 

People talk about 2005. Why not deal Peavy for position player prospects and backfill the rotation through free agency? You aren't going to rebuild this offense with 30 somethings.

[witesoxfan]

Who cares who plays shortstop. I mean seriously.

 

People talk about 2005. Why not deal Peavy for position player prospects and backfill the rotation through free agency? You aren't going to rebuild this offense with 30 somethings.

 

You're right, Flowers to shortstop!

 

As a fan, I care who plays shortstop. I really don't think there are many logical candidates out there to play SS right now who will be available this offseason who are better than Alexei.

[Y2Jimmy0]

You're right, Flowers to shortstop!

 

As a fan, I care who plays shortstop. I really don't think there are many logical candidates out there to play SS right now who will be available this offseason who are better than Alexei.

Again, I will ask the question. Would you trade Ramirez straight up right now for Mike Adams? If the answer is no then that is lunacy. I want the better asset. Young power hitting 1B who is cost controlled for the next 6 years is more valuable to this team than a 32 year old SS with a bad contract who gets on base at a .300 clip. I like Ramirez but lets not be crazy here. Is Alexei Ramirez going to be on the team the next time the Sox win the World Series? Probably not.

[Marty34]

You're right, Flowers to shortstop!

 

As a fan, I care who plays shortstop. I really don't think there are many logical candidates out there to play SS right now who will be available this offseason who are better than Alexei.

 

Does keeping Ramirez win you a championship?

[iamshack]

Does keeping Ramirez win you a championship?

Marty, I respect your willingness to be the Devil's Advocate, but the problem with your logic is there are just too many unknown variables which can occur to answer a question like this.

 

Keeping Ramirez could certainly win a championship, if other things came together.

 

Does trading Ramirez win you a championship?

[Y2Jimmy0]

Again, I will ask the question. Would you trade Ramirez straight up right now for Mike Adams? If the answer is no then that is lunacy. I want the better asset. Young power hitting 1B who is cost controlled for the next 6 years is more valuable to this team than a 32 year old SS with a bad contract who gets on base at a .300 clip. I like Ramirez but lets not be crazy here. Is Alexei Ramirez going to be on the team the next time the Sox win the World Series? Probably not.

 

 

Obviously, I meant Matt Adams.

[Jake]

The book is out on this contract. Alexei was worth $8MM last year according to FanGraphs and was worth over $16MM the years before that. He's already been worth $3MM this season.

[witesoxfan]

Again, I will ask the question. Would you trade Ramirez straight up right now for Mike Adams? If the answer is no then that is lunacy. I want the better asset. Young power hitting 1B who is cost controlled for the next 6 years is more valuable to this team than a 32 year old SS with a bad contract who gets on base at a .300 clip. I like Ramirez but lets not be crazy here. Is Alexei Ramirez going to be on the team the next time the Sox win the World Series? Probably not.

 

That's a silly question to ask. Is Chris Sale going to be on the team the next time the Sox win the World Series? Probably not, so let's trade him.

 

Matt Adams has a .858 OPS in his career. He also has only been up to the plate 126 times. He has 8 walks and 30 strikeouts. None of these are popping out to me, and the only thing that does is that he's inflated his numbers due to 35 plate appearances this year. He put up solid numbers in the minors, but nothing that indicates to me that he is going to be even an .850 OPS bat.

 

.298/.373/.503/.876, 20 homers, 50 walks, 85 strikeouts, 23 years old, split between AA and AAA (Int'l League)

.300/.357/.566/.923, 32 homers, 40 walks, 90 strikeouts, 22 years old, only done in AA. These are Matt Adams' numbers.

 

The first player then played the next 2 years in the PCL and put up an OPS around .950 with better strikeout and walk numbers...and Soxtalk collectively freaked out because Brandon Allen was going to be the next big thing. He's now in his 5th MLB organization and 6th organization overall (as he spent a small amount of time in Japan too).

 

So would I trade Alexei Ramirez, a guy who is a top 3 defensive shortstop who shows good contact ability, straight up for a 1B prospect who could very easily be a dime a dozen AAAA? No chance in hell. I'd consider dealing Ramirez to the Cardinals at some point in time, but it's going to cost them more than Matt Adams, that's for goddamn sure.

 

 

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

That's a silly question to ask. Is Chris Sale going to be on the team the next time the Sox win the World Series? Probably not, so let's trade him.

 

Matt Adams has a .858 OPS in his career. He also has only been up to the plate 126 times. He has 8 walks and 30 strikeouts. None of these are popping out to me, and the only thing that does is that he's inflated his numbers due to 35 plate appearances this year. He put up solid numbers in the minors, but nothing that indicates to me that he is going to be even an .850 OPS bat.

 

.298/.373/.503/.876, 20 homers, 50 walks, 85 strikeouts, 23 years old, split between AA and AAA (Int'l League)

.300/.357/.566/.923, 32 homers, 40 walks, 90 strikeouts, 22 years old, only done in AA. These are Matt Adams' numbers.

 

The first player then played the next 2 years in the PCL and put up an OPS around .950 with better strikeout and walk numbers...and Soxtalk collectively freaked out because Brandon Allen was going to be the next big thing. He's now in his 5th MLB organization and 6th organization overall (as he spent a small amount of time in Japan too).

 

So would I trade Alexei Ramirez, a guy who is a top 3 defensive shortstop who shows good contact ability, straight up for a 1B prospect who could very easily be a dime a dozen AAAA? No chance in hell. I'd consider dealing Ramirez to the Cardinals at some point in time, but it's going to cost them more than Matt Adams, that's for goddamn sure.

 

If Chris Sale isn't on their next World Series team then what are we doing here? The goal should be to get back to the World Series. It's a failure otherwise. If they aren't going back within the next 6 years while Sale is here then they may as well trade everyone like Marty is suggesting.

[witesoxfan]

If Chris Sale isn't on their next World Series team then what are we doing here? The goal should be to get back to the World Series. It's a failure otherwise. If they aren't going back within the next 6 years while Sale is here then they may as well trade everyone like Marty is suggesting.

 

I'm saying you have no idea when the Sox will win the next World Series or, without proper trades, when they will even be competitive again. I still think the team can be competitive this year, but I'm apparently one of the few remaining.

 

All I'm saying is that if you trade Ramirez to the Cardinals, you need more than Matt Adams. There is simply not equal value there. Whether it's another hitting prospect or a pitching prospect or whatever it may be.

[Marty34]

Marty, I respect your willingness to be the Devil's Advocate, but the problem with your logic is there are just too many unknown variables which can occur to answer a question like this.

 

Keeping Ramirez could certainly win a championship, if other things came together.

 

Does trading Ramirez win you a championship?

 

In the unlikely event that enough things came together for the Sox to win a World Series the difference between a 33-34 y.o. Ramirez and his replacement would not impede that.

[TaylorStSox]

I do believe you are one of the few who believes this.

I've seen nothing from him that would lead me to believe he has the range to play SS. The one thing holding him back from being an elite second baseman is his range.

[witesoxfan]

In the unlikely event that enough things came together for the Sox to win a World Series the difference between a 33-34 y.o. Ramirez and his replacement would not impede that.

 

Alexei Ramirez has the 10th highest WAR among shortstops. He has the 6th highest average, and to assume that he's suddenly turned from a .100+ Iso kind of guy to a .080 Iso guy is silly. He will start hitting for a bit more power, he'll continue to field, and he'll continue to be an incredibly valuable player.

 

But, if you are so sure that Ramirez would not hinder it, surely you have a better solution. If you say Sanchez or Beckham, or anybody else in the minors, I'm just going to simply say you're absolutely 100% wrong. And if you're bringing in a free agent, it's going to cost the same anyways, and then you're sacrificing defense on top of it.

[witesoxfan]

I've seen nothing from him that would lead me to believe he has the range to play SS. The one thing holding him back from being an elite second baseman is his range.

 

Oh, if you were saying he'd be a statue at SS, then I agree. I think he's perfectly fine at 2B. Good hands, good speed for 2B, mediocre reaction time, and and the speed and reaction are very important at SS.

 

No, I agree completely, Beckham would be terrible at SS. It'd be like Michael Young playing SS.

[Marty34]

Alexei Ramirez has the 10th highest WAR among shortstops. He has the 6th highest average, and to assume that he's suddenly turned from a .100+ Iso kind of guy to a .080 Iso guy is silly. He will start hitting for a bit more power, he'll continue to field, and he'll continue to be an incredibly valuable player.

 

But, if you are so sure that Ramirez would not hinder it, surely you have a better solution. If you say Sanchez or Beckham, or anybody else in the minors, I'm just going to simply say you're absolutely 100% wrong. And if you're bringing in a free agent, it's going to cost the same anyways, and then you're sacrificing defense on top of it.

 

You know if he is as valuable as you say, he should bring quite the return in a trade. Ramirez is not going to be part of the core that brings the Sox their next post-season team. Too old, declining.