In the event of a rebuild, stop comparing the Sox

[Jordan4life_2007]

WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

 

This fool agrees with you

[Jake]

WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

 

lulz

[caulfield12]

They made a joke with Hahn during the radio interview about "that will get you fired" for quoting "getting to more balls put into play" statistically as a defense of the current team's malaise in the field.

[Heads22]

I'll take a trade we lose every day for a ring.

 

[KPBears]

He didn't play it well.

 

And he was horrible (like Pods and Pierre) at stopping runners on the basepaths.

 

 

So yeah, you can stick anyone out there, but that doesn't mean they're going to contribute positively if their defense is horrendous and their bat is just average or slightly above average for the position.

 

Viciedo has made a real difference because you have to respect his arm if you're the opposition.

 

Pods was better in 2005 (particularly the first half) than Viciedo will ever be. I know it's cool to bash Podsednik on this site, but the Sox wouldn't have won the division, let alone the Series, without him. He slowed down with injuries in the second half, but in the first half he was hitting around .300, collecting a fair amount of walks, and stealing bases at a pace not seen since guys like Henderson, Raines and Coleman back in the 80's. I agree with quite a bit of the Sabremetrics approach, and I'm a huge on-base guy. But there are some intangibles that can't be measured, and a leadoff hitter who can get on base regularly and is a threat to steal every time on base gets in most pitchers heads, and makes things easier for the rest of the lineup.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I will never understand why so many Sox fans hate on Pods.

[GreenSox]

I still think the SF Giants are a pretty good model...where they were in 2007-2009 seems pretty similar to where we are now...I remember thinking they were a mess, with the Bonds thing coming to a disastrous ending, having Zito on the books for several more years, trading Tim Alderson to Pittsburgh for Freddy Sanchez, etc...they looked very lost...and turned it around very quickly.

 

I don't see why we couldn't pull of the same thing.

I think they are because we are similar in many ways. They use their prospects and are willing to trade them, just like Williams has. The Giants will sign free agents, but don't go overboard. We probably have similar budgets. They aren't a favorite of the Sabre types, just like us.

But they do one thing we don't do: they support and develop their farm system.

That's what we need to do.

 

If the Sox won't improve their scouting and player development, it won't matter. And the trades of the last 3 years have mostly been executed poorly as well (and we rarely got full value even before then, although many worked out a lot better).

The Sox have one player with the opportunity to bring a haul: Peavy. Here is a 1/2 starter, with a reasonable contract for 2+more seasons. A contender absolutely should lust after him in July. They can't try to work trades with their friends, or having to get one prospect, or having to get a 3rd baseman since we're weak there.

They have got to hold out for the best prospects they can get and from whomeever is willing to provide them.And if no one will, wait until next year. Extort everything you can get out of him.

2 years ago, Jackson should have brought a decent return. Williams instead dealt him to a team he was friendly with, for a questionable prospect and a middle reliever we didn't need. There was no need to fool with Toronto - he should have been dealt straight to St Louis.

Peavy's far more valuable, but the execution must be 100% better.

Edited May 16, 2013 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

Pods was better in 2005 (particularly the first half) than Viciedo will ever be. I know it's cool to bash Podsednik on this site, but the Sox wouldn't have won the division, let alone the Series, without him. He slowed down with injuries in the second half, but in the first half he was hitting around .300, collecting a fair amount of walks, and stealing bases at a pace not seen since guys like Henderson, Raines and Coleman back in the 80's. I agree with quite a bit of the Sabremetrics approach, and I'm a huge on-base guy. But there are some intangibles that can't be measured, and a leadoff hitter who can get on base regularly and is a threat to steal every time on base gets in most pitchers heads, and makes things easier for the rest of the lineup.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I will never understand why so many Sox fans hate on Pods.

 

 

 

I was referring to Carlos Lee's defense, actually.

 

Pods was much better the 2nd time around with the Sox defensively...but by then he'd already lost that burst and confidence on the basepaths, although he was actually one of our more clutch hitters.

 

 

As far as the Viciedo vs. Pods comparison, they're 2 entirely different kinds of players.

If you remember, Pods didn't even make an impact at the major league level until his late 20's.

 

Viciedo, even though he's seemingly been around forever, is still very young.

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/pro...Scott-Podsednik

 

Pods was 27 and 28 in his first two big league seasons in MIL.

 

He's a career 719 OPS guy. For the White Sox in 2005, he was at 700.

 

Even arguing that Pods at 700 OPS is better or more desirable than Viciedo at 800 (which a lot won't accept), then you also have to factor in the age difference and the potential Viciedo has to continue improving as a hitter.

Edited May 16, 2013 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Pods was better in 2005 (particularly the first half) than Viciedo will ever be. I know it's cool to bash Podsednik on this site, but the Sox wouldn't have won the division, let alone the Series, without him. He slowed down with injuries in the second half, but in the first half he was hitting around .300, collecting a fair amount of walks, and stealing bases at a pace not seen since guys like Henderson, Raines and Coleman back in the 80's. I agree with quite a bit of the Sabremetrics approach, and I'm a huge on-base guy. But there are some intangibles that can't be measured, and a leadoff hitter who can get on base regularly and is a threat to steal every time on base gets in most pitchers heads, and makes things easier for the rest of the lineup.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I will never understand why so many Sox fans hate on Pods.

 

EDIT: I'll say something constructive instead.

 

Viciedo's ceiling is 3 times higher than Pods' ever was. Podsednik was a decent hitter. Viciedo has a chance to be a legitimate cleanup hitter in the majors. This statement is not only a misguided opinion, it's likely an incorrect opinion as well.

Edited May 16, 2013 by witesoxfan

[LittleHurt05]

that doesnt justify a bad trade.. you could have still traded Lee for a better return and saved all that salary.. like I said im glad we won the world series, but that trade sucked

 

A WS title justifies any trade. With Pods leading off and the money saved to acquire other players, that trade directly led to a WS title, isn't that the final goal? If they had gotten more talent, but not won the WS, would that still have been a better trade in your eyes?

 

It's like the Cardinals trade of Colby Rasmus. On paper, it looked like they got screwed talent-wise. However, the players they acquired helped them win the World Series that fall. Sounds like a winning trade to me.

[Kyyle23]

Pods was better in 2005 (particularly the first half) than Viciedo will ever be. I know it's cool to bash Podsednik on this site, but the Sox wouldn't have won the division, let alone the Series, without him. He slowed down with injuries in the second half, but in the first half he was hitting around .300, collecting a fair amount of walks, and stealing bases at a pace not seen since guys like Henderson, Raines and Coleman back in the 80's. I agree with quite a bit of the Sabremetrics approach, and I'm a huge on-base guy. But there are some intangibles that can't be measured, and a leadoff hitter who can get on base regularly and is a threat to steal every time on base gets in most pitchers heads, and makes things easier for the rest of the lineup.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I will never understand why so many Sox fans hate on Pods.

 

Kind of hard to make that definitive statement when Viciedo has only played 2 years in the majors total

[TaylorStSox]

That Pods vs Viciedo statement has to be a joke. That's coming from a huge Pods fan. Pods was the most important player on the Sox in the first half. He was the catalyst of that team. Viciedo has the potential to be a beast though. His natural gifts are extremely rare. Listen to the sound the ball makes off the bat. You can't teach that. You can lift all the weights you want. You can't make it happen. You're born with that ability. There are guys that can hit the ball farther, but I highly doubt anybody can hit the ball harder. When he's right, I'd wear a helmet if I was a 3rd baseman. No joke.

 

I can't really think of a worse LF than Lee. He did every single thing wrong out there. He positioned himself poorly. He got atrocious reads and jumps on balls. He threw like a girl. He didn't really understand the game or his responsibilities.

[harfman77]

The Sox are in the process of a rebuild right now. The draft last year and free agency this year were strong indicators of that. Last years draft was more focused on high upside players as opposed to the traditional draft of going for college players that were either very toolsy or very close to contributing. In free agency nothing was done to improve this team, Youk and AJP walked and were replaced with Keppinger, relatively inexpensively. Its not the White Flag, because we dont have the players to move in a white flag scenario. There is just not really a whole lot of demand at this point for any White Sox players. I think what you will continue to see is the Sox spend just enough to try and be competitive, but concentrating more on building up the talent level of the farm system.

[The Ultimate Champion]

A WS title justifies any trade. With Pods leading off and the money saved to acquire other players, that trade directly led to a WS title, isn't that the final goal? If they had gotten more talent, but not won the WS, would that still have been a better trade in your eyes?

 

It's like the Cardinals trade of Colby Rasmus. On paper, it looked like they got screwed talent-wise. However, the players they acquired helped them win the World Series that fall. Sounds like a winning trade to me.

Timing was a huge factor in that trade as well. If KW had spent all offseason f***ing around trying to get full value out of Carlos Lee then JD would have signed elsewhere (JD had another offer on the table), he wouldn't have gotten a lead-off hitter, Vizcaino would have been missing from the pen so he'd still need another reliever, etc. and he wouldn't have had the same kind of payroll space to maneuver. That trade opened up KW's entire offseason, and the offseason as a whole, even discounting the WS title, was a ton more productive than any extra bit of value he could have gotten out of Lee. The absolute best quality of Kenny & any good GM is being able to work quick and make moves without being scared of making moves.

[Balta1701]

Timing was a huge factor in that trade as well. If KW had spent all offseason f***ing around trying to get full value out of Carlos Lee then JD would have signed elsewhere (JD had another offer on the table), he wouldn't have gotten a lead-off hitter, Vizcaino would have been missing from the pen so he'd still need another reliever, etc. and he wouldn't have had the same kind of payroll space to maneuver. That trade opened up KW's entire offseason, and the offseason as a whole, even discounting the WS title, was a ton more productive than any extra bit of value he could have gotten out of Lee. The absolute best quality of Kenny & any good GM is being able to work quick and make moves without being scared of making moves.

But at the same time, Nestor Molina says that the worst quality of Kenny was also working quick and making moves without being scared of making moves.

[caulfield12]

Or Zach Stewart.

 

Or Daniel Hudson for Jackson after Hudson only had 3 starts.

[caulfield12]

Or Zach Stewart.

 

Or Daniel Hudson for Jackson after Hudson only had 3 starts.

[T R U]

A WS title justifies any trade. With Pods leading off and the money saved to acquire other players, that trade directly led to a WS title, isn't that the final goal? If they had gotten more talent, but not won the WS, would that still have been a better trade in your eyes?

 

It's like the Cardinals trade of Colby Rasmus. On paper, it looked like they got screwed talent-wise. However, the players they acquired helped them win the World Series that fall. Sounds like a winning trade to me.

 

There is zero proof that the trade had anything to do with us winning a world series.. you have no way to know how the season would have played out had the trade not happened, still could have won a world series but well never know..

 

It was a bad trade as far as value goes, there is no argument to dispute that..

[SI1020]

that doesnt justify a bad trade.. you could have still traded Lee for a better return and saved all that salary.. like I said im glad we won the world series, but that trade sucked

I could not possibly disagree with you more. You just can't look at as Lee the fearsome hitter vs Podsednik the weak armed slap hitting outfielder. 2005 was the only year in recent and not so recent history that the Sox didn't have an all or nothing approach to offense. Yeah they hit a ton of homers but they got off to that great start with Pods and Iguchi leading the way. Didn't they take the lead in the first 37 games that year? Podsednik totally changed the dynamic and it's no coincidence that they struggled when he started having his injury problems. Like Caufield mentioned the Podsednik trade opened up the other possibilities and fortunately Kenny was at the top of his game. Scott Podsednik is a big reason why I refuse to become a stat slave to WAR. Kenny doesn't make that trade and we're looking at 95 years and counting.

 

[southsider2k5]

But at the same time, Nestor Molina says that the worst quality of Kenny was also working quick and making moves without being scared of making moves.

 

Then again judging by Sirotka and Santos, maybe Kenny just called the one team whose MRI doesn't work too well...

[Jake]

I could not possibly disagree with you more. You just can't look at as Lee the fearsome hitter vs Podsednik the weak armed slap hitting outfielder. 2005 was the only year in recent and not so recent history that the Sox didn't have an all or nothing approach to offense. Yeah they hit a ton of homers but they got off to that great start with Pods and Iguchi leading the way. Didn't they take the lead in the first 37 games that year? Podsednik totally changed the dynamic and it's no coincidence that they struggled when he started having his injury problems. Like Caufield mentioned the Podsednik trade opened up the other possibilities and fortunately Kenny was at the top of his game. Scott Podsednik is a big reason why I refuse to become a stat slave to WAR. Kenny doesn't make that trade and we're looking at 95 years and counting.

 

And again, Pods out-WAR'ed Lee that year anyway. It got us a ring.

[chitownsportsfan]

I could not possibly disagree with you more. You just can't look at as Lee the fearsome hitter vs Podsednik the weak armed slap hitting outfielder. 2005 was the only year in recent and not so recent history that the Sox didn't have an all or nothing approach to offense. Yeah they hit a ton of homers but they got off to that great start with Pods and Iguchi leading the way. Didn't they take the lead in the first 37 games that year? Podsednik totally changed the dynamic and it's no coincidence that they struggled when he started having his injury problems. Like Caufield mentioned the Podsednik trade opened up the other possibilities and fortunately Kenny was at the top of his game. Scott Podsednik is a big reason why I refuse to become a stat slave to WAR. Kenny doesn't make that trade and we're looking at 95 years and counting.

 

Actually, Pods was almost a solid starter (around 2 WAR) that year, he posted 1.7bWAR. So, WAR confirms the value of solid defense, slap hitting, and speed and it gives PODS 1.7 bWAR but you disagree?

 

Come on man, nobody should use WAR as a monolithic stat, but it's pretty damn accurate most of the time (let's leave the defensive variance stuff aside for now) and it's in agreement with you that PODS was pretty good in 2005.

 

If we learned anything from the debate over Cabrera and Trout last year for MVP it's that WAR measures all types of contributions and all types of players, not just sluggers. It likes defensive wizards, base running geniuses, etc.

[caulfield12]

I could not possibly disagree with you more. You just can't look at as Lee the fearsome hitter vs Podsednik the weak armed slap hitting outfielder. 2005 was the only year in recent and not so recent history that the Sox didn't have an all or nothing approach to offense. Yeah they hit a ton of homers but they got off to that great start with Pods and Iguchi leading the way. Didn't they take the lead in the first 37 games that year? Podsednik totally changed the dynamic and it's no coincidence that they struggled when he started having his injury problems. Like Caufield mentioned the Podsednik trade opened up the other possibilities and fortunately Kenny was at the top of his game. Scott Podsednik is a big reason why I refuse to become a stat slave to WAR. Kenny doesn't make that trade and we're looking at 95 years and counting.

 

Wasn't the consecutive games (taking the lead) at the start of 2006 when the offense was just killing people (including the team that would go on to win the World Series, the Cardinals)?

 

Hmmm, can't remember anymore.

[LittleHurt05]

There is zero proof that the trade had anything to do with us winning a world series.. you have no way to know how the season would have played out had the trade not happened, still could have won a world series but well never know..

 

It was a bad trade as far as value goes, there is no argument to dispute that..

 

Zero proof, except for the fact that multiple players acquired as a result of the trade were key contributors to a World Series champion. Maybe they win it all with El Caballo in LF, maybe they don't, who knows. But we do know that the trade led straight to a WS that season.

 

Who cares about trade value when you win the World Series. Sometimes it's not about value, it's about doing what's best for your team.

[witesoxfan]

I could not possibly disagree with you more. You just can't look at as Lee the fearsome hitter vs Podsednik the weak armed slap hitting outfielder. 2005 was the only year in recent and not so recent history that the Sox didn't have an all or nothing approach to offense. Yeah they hit a ton of homers but they got off to that great start with Pods and Iguchi leading the way. Didn't they take the lead in the first 37 games that year? Podsednik totally changed the dynamic and it's no coincidence that they struggled when he started having his injury problems. Like Caufield mentioned the Podsednik trade opened up the other possibilities and fortunately Kenny was at the top of his game. Scott Podsednik is a big reason why I refuse to become a stat slave to WAR. Kenny doesn't make that trade and we're looking at 95 years and counting.

 

They got off to a great start and won the division because of pitching. They were great with RISP and getting clutch hits, but that offense was absolutely terrible.

[caulfield12]

They got off to a great start and won the division because of pitching. They were great with RISP and getting clutch hits, but that offense was absolutely terrible.

 

 

Not terrible, just below average...terrible would be this year's offense the first 6 weeks of the season.

 

Missing Thomas for most of the year made a huge difference.