Santiago vs. Axelrod

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Show any evidence from 2012 (after he was demoted from closer) and early 2013 that Santiago will be used as a set-up guy...

 

To replace Thornton? That would be ONE PLAN (to get through this year competitively). Trading Thornton and investing the money back in the team.

 

Replacing Nathan Jones or Lindstrom with Santiago? Are they really planning to do that?

 

Otherwise, this whole idea of young starters starting to press....how is that changed by addressing the bullpen instead of the offense/starting line-up (for example, catcher)?

 

Axelrod is the shortest RH starter in the game of baseball and has the lowest average fastball. He's worth more to the White Sox (because of his low salary) than he is in trade return. You can't trade Axelrod and getting a starting catcher in return for him. It's just not going to happen.

 

With a premium being placed more and more on power pitching...Axelrod is fine as the last pitcher on the roster, but he's not going to help lead your rotation to the playoffs. And he's probably going to struggle more at UCSF when the weather (and offenses) start to heat up.

 

The White Sox already made one mistake in bringing back Floyd and not trading him when they had the opportunity. Now they're making another one by utilizing Santiago incorrectly. If they're building towards the future, then Santiago really needs to be starting for the Charlotte Knights, so he doesn't have to spend 2014 wearing down in the end...like Chris Sale in the second half of 2012.

 

 

There's no evidence to show Santiago won't be a mop up guy. Not a shred. Nada zip zilch. All I'm saying and have been saying is that it makes sense. I trust the Sox will see it's a waste to have Santiago as a set up guy.

 

I don't have the time nor the inclination to look up stats , but I'll venture to say Ax has been equally as good , if not better then most 5th starters in MLB . How tall he is or how hard he throws has nothing to do with effectiveness. He's kept us in a lot of games. Any cost controlled starter is valuable. Starting pitching is always at a premium. He might be even better in the NL. I never said the Sox could get a starting catcher for him but I did say Ax and something else could get us a needed bat. Santiago is what , 23 ? His time will come. If Axelrod is ever going to be worth anything , his time has to be now. He is 27 and in his 1st year of starting in the majors. Injuries and ineffectiveness always brings starting pitching in a pennant chase to the forefront. Maybe I am overestimating his value but you are underestimating it. However, time will tell. The decision to keep him in the rotation is sound.

 

Too much emphasis is put on a team jerking a player around. Do you think Santiago would rather be a reliever in the majors or a starter in the minors ? If he is any kind of team player, he'll accept his role because it helps the team now and for the future if Ax can continue to do what he has been doing.

Edited May 25, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

There's no evidence to show Santiago won't be a mop up guy. Not a shred. Nada zip zilch. All I'm saying and have been saying is that it makes sense. I trust the Sox will see it's a waste to have Santiago as a set up guy.

 

I don't have the time nor the inclination to look up stats , but I'll venture to say Ax has been equally as good , if not better then most 5th starters in MLB . He's kept us in a lot of games. Any cost controlled starter is valuable. Starting pitching is always at a premium. He might be even better in the NL. I never said the Sox could get a starting catcher for him but I did say Ax and something else could get us a needed bat. Santiago is what , 23 ? His time will come. If Axelrod is ever going to be worth anything , his time has to be now. He is 27 and in his 1st year of starting in the majors. Injuries and ineffectiveness always brings starting pitching in a pennant chase to the forefront. Maybe I am overestimating his value but you are underestimating it. However, time will tell. The decision to keep him in the rotation is sound.

 

Too much emphasis is put on a team jerking a player around. Do you think Santiago would rather be a reliever in the majors or a starter in the minors ? If he is any kind of team player, he'll accept his role because it helps the team now and for the future if Ax can continue to do what he has been doing.

 

 

Except when/if Axelrod fails or there's an injury, who's going to fill the spot?

 

It would conceivably take Santiago 3 weeks or so if all he does is pitch 3-4-5 times per month like in the second half season.

 

How is that helping him build up his arm strength and endurance for the future?

 

If some are complaining he can't go past 5 innings...and he already did that this week against a strong Red Sox line-up or in the final week of the 2012 season...then how does sitting him in the bullpen help the franchise?

 

Whatever they choose, it should be creating the highest possible value out of him...not the least.

 

 

As far as jerking a player around....that would be fine, it this was the first time. But we've seen it with Beckham, with Viciedo, there are lots of historical examples.

Edited May 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Except when/if Axelrod fails or there's an injury, who's going to fill the spot?

 

It would conceivably take Santiago 3 weeks or so if all he does is pitch 3-4-5 times per month like in the second half season.

 

How is that helping him build up his arm strength and endurance for the future?

 

If some are complaining he can't go past 5 innings...and he already did that this week against a strong Red Sox line-up or in the final week of the 2012 season...then how does sitting him in the bullpen help the franchise?

 

Whatever they choose, it should be creating the highest possible value out of him...not the least.

 

 

As far as jerking a player around....that would be fine, it this was the first time. But we've seen it with Beckham, with Viciedo, there are lots of historical examples.

I really don't understand your argument. What's the hurry with Santiago ? He appears to have a live arm. 3 days rest , bullpen session and still goes 6 with 9 K's against the Red Sox. He isn't going anywhere. The Sox know what they have in him. There is no reason to have him at max value right now. But there are reasons to max Ax's value right now as I have been saying.

 

And yes you are 100% correct about a lot of historical examples of young players being jerked around. It's called baseball . It's been done by every team for over 100 years. It's part of what happens to young players if they aren't complete studs at a given position or with the bat. And it will continue to be that way.

Edited May 26, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[beautox]

My frustration with this situation as a sox fan is we've seen this organization make a similar mistake in the past with McCarthy back and forth between the rotation and the pen. Santiago is even more talented than Brandon ever was and if we're building for the future he needs to get stretched out in a similar fashion to Sale. Its also frustrating watching the sox front office this past offseason not move Floyd before he became a sunk cost and seeing what we had in both Dylan and Hector.

 

I think the sox should evolve past conventional wisdom, if what they have going forward is four incredibly talented left handed starters than so be it, stick Peavy in the middle and move on.

 

Looking at what we have in our four left handers its incredibly exciting:

 

John Danks will hopefully return to his 3WAR pitching ways, personally I think we are just about to see Danks pull his best Frank Viola impression going forward.

 

With Sale we haven't even fully begun to see what this kid's future is.

 

Quintana could very well become our version of CJ Wilson or Jon Lester. Some interesting things to consider, Quintana at age 24 has had a better K/9 then both of the aforementioned 6.79 vs 5.63 and 6.50 respectively, along with BB/9, AVG and WHIP.

 

That leaves Santiago and when you compare him to both Johan Santana and Fransico Liriano you begin to get excited about what he could very well develop into and understand the frustration of some sox fans about what this kids potential is and how the organization views and utilizes him.

 

The rotations future could become the envy of AL very quickly going into next season Danks will only be 28 and is locked up till 2016 (14:$14.25M, 15:$14.25M, 16:$14.25M), Sale will be 25 and is locked up with options till '19 (14:$3.5M, 15:$6M, 16:$9.15M, 17:$12M, 18:$12.5M club option ($1M buyout), 19:$13.5M club option), Quintana will also be 25 and is under control till '18 if i'm not mistaken due to when he was brought up last year in may. Santiago will be 26 and under control till '17.

 

Sox need to lock up Quintana and Santiago asap to something similar to Matt Moore[5 years/$14M (2012-16), plus 2017-19 options] or Madison Bumgarner[5 years/$35M (2013-17), plus 2018-19 options]

[Chicago White Sox]

The Sox are trying to win the division or a Wild Card spot right now. They believe Axelrod in the rotation and Santiago in the pen makes them stronger than Santiago in the rotation and Axelrod/AAA guy in the pen.

 

Honestly, it's a real tough call IMO. No doubt if we're only looking towards next year, then Santiago needs to be in the rotation. In terms of winning this year, it's pretty close. I do think that Santiago is the better starter right now, but Axelrod has been more than solid so far and doesn't seem like the type of pitcher to translate well to a bullpen role. Hector can fill a variety of roles in the bullpen, which does make him more valuable than your typical reliever.

 

I'd still probably go with Santiago as a starter right now, just because I value starting pitching over everything else, but I can understand why the White Sox are going with Axelrod for now. Having said that, if the team falls out of the race they better insert Hector back into the rotation and start developing him for next year.

[caulfield12]

My frustration with this situation as a sox fan is we've seen this organization make a similar mistake in the past with McCarthy back and forth between the rotation and the pen. Santiago is even more talented than Brandon ever was and if we're building for the future he needs to get stretched out in a similar fashion to Sale. Its also frustrating watching the sox front office this past offseason not move Floyd before he became a sunk cost and seeing what we had in both Dylan and Hector.

 

I think the sox should evolve past conventional wisdom, if what they have going forward is four incredibly talented left handed starters than so be it, stick Peavy in the middle and move on.

 

Looking at what we have in our four left handers its incredibly exciting:

 

John Danks will hopefully return to his 3WAR pitching ways, personally I think we are just about to see Danks pull his best Frank Viola impression going forward.

 

With Sale we haven't even fully begun to see what this kid's future is.

 

Quintana could very well become our version of CJ Wilson or Jon Lester. Some interesting things to consider, Quintana at age 24 has had a better K/9 then both of the aforementioned 6.79 vs 5.63 and 6.50 respectively, along with BB/9, AVG and WHIP.

 

That leaves Santiago and when you compare him to both Johan Santana and Fransico Liriano you begin to get excited about what he could very well develop into and understand the frustration of some sox fans about what this kids potential is and how the organization views and utilizes him.

 

The rotations future could become the envy of AL very quickly going into next season Danks will only be 28 and is locked up till 2016 (14:$14.25M, 15:$14.25M, 16:$14.25M), Sale will be 25 and is locked up with options till '19 (14:$3.5M, 15:$6M, 16:$9.15M, 17:$12M, 18:$12.5M club option ($1M buyout), 19:$13.5M club option), Quintana will also be 25 and is under control till '18 if i'm not mistaken due to when he was brought up last year in may. Santiago will be 26 and under control till '17.

 

Sox need to lock up Quintana and Santiago asap to something similar to Matt Moore[5 years/$14M (2012-16), plus 2017-19 options] or Madison Bumgarner[5 years/$35M (2013-17), plus 2018-19 options]

 

 

Love your enthusiasm, but it has never been the style of the White Sox (until Sale) to give long-term extensions to their young players, preferring to go year by year.

 

Danks was the other big exception.

 

If Quintana and Santiago still are pitching this well at the end of 2013 and going into 2014, then it's definitely something worth considering.

 

The other factor to consider is simply the fact that having a 4 lefty rotation isn't something they're going to lock themselves into until they see how it goes first...and they have an even cheaper Erik Johnson trailing behind all those guys you mentioned...so there's always the possibility they'll deal one of them (or two, counting Axelrod) for a position player.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

Love your enthusiasm, but it has never been the style of the White Sox (until Sale) to give long-term extensions to their young players, preferring to go year by year.

 

Danks was the other big exception.

 

If Quintana and Santiago still are pitching this well at the end of 2013 and going into 2014, then it's definitely something worth considering.

 

The other factor to consider is simply the fact that having a 4 lefty rotation isn't something they're going to lock themselves into until they see how it goes first...and they have an even cheaper Erik Johnson trailing behind all those guys you mentioned...so there's always the possibility they'll deal one of them (or two, counting Axelrod) for a position player.

I don't think the White Sox prefer going year-to-year, they just haven't had a lot of young talent to lock up or the deals didn't make sense. Some players are not eager to give a home-team discount and would rather maximize their value through arbitration. Can't really blame the Sox for that.

 

Also, Danks was not an exception, he actually went year-to-year until his final season of team control. Again, the Sox tried locking him up earlier multiple times but Danks did not like the terms of those deals. However, the Sox did sign Floyd & Santos to affordable long-term deals. And while Ramirez isn't young, they locked him up as well through his arbitration years.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that if Quintana and Reed keep pitching well, they'll get long-term deals in the offseason. As we saw with the Sale deal, the perfect time to strike is the year before arbitration. And I don't it matters how many lefties we have in the rotation or if we a viable rotation option in the minors, if you can lock up a good young starter to an affordable deal you do it. Makes that player much more valuable in trade talks.

[Chicago White Sox]

The rotations future could become the envy of AL very quickly going into next season Danks will only be 28 and is locked up till 2016 (14:$14.25M, 15:$14.25M, 16:$14.25M), Sale will be 25 and is locked up with options till '19 (14:$3.5M, 15:$6M, 16:$9.15M, 17:$12M, 18:$12.5M club option ($1M buyout), 19:$13.5M club option), Quintana will also be 25 and is under control till '18 if i'm not mistaken due to when he was brought up last year in may. Santiago will be 26 and under control till '17.

Baseball Reference must have an incorrect service time for Quintana as they show him at .133 years. I would have thought that last year would have easily qualified for a year of team control, especially if he was called up in May. Isn't the cutoff date typically in mid-June?

[cabiness42]

Baseball Reference must have an incorrect service time for Quintana as they show him at .133 years. I would have thought that last year would have easily qualified for a year of team control, especially if he was called up in May. Isn't the cutoff date typically in mid-June?

 

.133 years = 133 days. You have to be on a Major League Roster 180 days to make a year, and service times are generally only updated at the end of each year, so that means he was on the roster 133 days last year, which sounds about right.

 

The mid-June cutoff is for Super Two status, which Quintana will probably hit if he doesn't get sent down during the next two years.

Edited May 25, 2013 by HickoryHuskers

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

 

My frustration with this situation as a sox fan is we've seen this organization make a similar mistake in the past with McCarthy back and forth between the rotation and the pen. Santiago is even more talented than Brandon ever was and if we're building for the future he needs to get stretched out in a similar fashion to Sale. Its also frustrating watching the sox front office this past offseason not move Floyd before he became a sunk cost and seeing what we had in both Dylan and Hector.

 

Everything that you said (erased most of it for space sake ), I like. I'd rather get excited about the Sox future than think about tearing it apart. 5 strong in starters is incredibly good. Even in hindsight you can't say what happened with Brandon McCarthy hurt his career just because he hasn't become what we thought he might. It's also easy now to say Santiago has more talent than BMac . Santiago 's future looks good but we don't know if it will happen as is the case with so many young pitchers.

 

The Sox really had no idea what they had in Ax. Most on the board hated him because he didn't have "good stuff". Even now ,although he has pitched beyond expectations ,we have no idea if he can continue that. The plan is to hope he can , establish some value and go from there.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I know that Axelrod has done the job in the rotation. However, Santiago is the better pitcher and a better option long term. I hate Santiago in the bullpen. Not because he isn't good but because he is much more valuable as a starter. I just don't understand why they don't want the better pitcher starting. You have all said it's because they need him in the bullpen. I hate that reason. He's a starter. So start him. Have someone else take the bullpen role. I hate when this organization does this. If Santiago becomes a #3 starter it's much much more valuable than him being a lights out setup man. Obviously, Santiago is not Chris Sale, but we all had these same discussions when they prematurely put Sale in the bullpen last year.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I know that Axelrod has done the job in the rotation. However, Santiago is the better pitcher and a better option long term. I hate Santiago in the bullpen. Not because he isn't good but because he is much more valuable as a starter. I just don't understand why they don't want the better pitcher starting. You have all said it's because they need him in the bullpen. I hate that reason. He's a starter. So start him. Have someone else take the bullpen role. I hate when this organization does this. If Santiago becomes a #3 starter it's much much more valuable than him being a lights out setup man. Obviously, Santiago is not Chris Sale, but we all had these same discussions when they prematurely put Sale in the bullpen last year.

Imagine Santiago as a setup guy. Not just pitching one inning but possibly more, the 6th and 7th or the 7th and 8th. It's incredibly valuable to the Sox pen . I still have hope the Sox can compete this year. If it doesn't happen every one will get their wish to see Santiago starting. It's going to take a few months to determine . He doesn't have to start now just as Sale didn't have to start then. If you don't understand what the Sox are trying to do after I have repeatedly clarified it I don't know what else I can do. It's all about maxing Ax's value now . Might not work out . Ax might crap the bed , but with Floyd hurt and Danks just returning we have a few months to see what Ax and Danks can do to increase their value.

[caulfield12]

Imagine Santiago as a setup guy. Not just pitching one inning but possibly more, the 6th and 7th or the 7th and 8th. It's incredibly valuable to the Sox pen . I still have hope the Sox can compete this year. If it doesn't happen every one will get their wish to see Santiago starting. It's going to take a few months to determine . He doesn't have to start now just as Sale didn't have to start then. If you don't understand what the Sox are trying to do after I have repeatedly clarified it I don't know what else I can do. It's all about maxing Ax's value now . Might not work out . Ax might crap the bed , but with Floyd hurt and Danks just returning we have a few months to see what Ax and Danks can do to increase their value.

 

 

Increase Danks' value for what? Nobody will trade for him until he proves he's 100% healthy and can pitch effectively with 2-3 MPH less juice on his fastball. It's going to take all of 2013 for him to re-establish that value...and if you have a $65 million veteran pitcher on a long-term contract, he's never going to end up in the bullpen (even if you could make the legitimate argument Santiago/Axelrod starting would give the White Sox a better chance to win THIS year).

 

Axelrod wasn't ever a Top 10 prospect, or, if he was, it was probably 10th.

 

I'll put it this way...scouts all around baseball are more likely to view him more like Phil Humber than someone they'd give up an attractive package to acquire.

 

What are the odds that he keeps up this level of performance the entire season? There will be no value for him if they don't trade him before his weaknesses are fully exposed and other teams see him 2-3 times and figure him out.

Edited May 25, 2013 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Increase Danks' value for what? Nobody will trade for him until he proves he's 100% healthy and can pitch effectively with 2-3 MPH less juice on his fastball. It's going to take all of 2013 for him to re-establish that value...and if you have a $65 million veteran pitcher on a long-term contract, he's never going to end up in the bullpen (even if you could make the legitimate argument Santiago/Axelrod starting would give the White Sox a better chance to win THIS year).

 

Axelrod wasn't ever a Top 10 prospect, or, if he was, it was probably 10th.

 

I'll put it this way...scouts all around baseball are more likely to view him more like Phil Humber than someone they'd give up an attractive package to acquire.

 

What are the odds that he keeps up this level of performance the entire season? There will be no value for him if they don't trade him before his weaknesses are fully exposed and other teams see him 2-3 times and figure him out.

Increasing Dank's value ? Oh yea because some value is better than none ? If Ax can keep pitching well for a few months he can be dealt to a team desperately needing pitching to keep their playoff chances afloat. What we get in return is anyone's guess atm . Depends on what we will need at that time, if the plan comes to fruition. I prefer thinking of the positive outcomes of the situation. If you want to continue to think it will turn out badly, that's your prerogative.

Edited May 26, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

Apparently it is official now.

 

Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin 56m

 

Santiago to the bullpen, Axelrod staying at No. 5. More to come on http://MLB.com

[Soxfest]

No suprise at all how it shook out.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Sox prove to be clueless again, to the surprise of no one.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Sox prove to be clueless again, to the surprise of no one.

Keep beating that drum while the Sox keep winning.

[Soxfest]

Sox prove to be clueless again, to the surprise of no one.

We shall see.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Keep beating that drum while the Sox keep winning.

Yes. They happened to have a nice May. Which coincides with Santiago becoming a srarter. No surprise there.

[Dick Allen]

Yes. They happened to have a nice May. Which coincides with Santiago becoming a srarter. No surprise there.

Yes. The 1-4 record in his starts clearly indicates he being in the rotation is and will be the reason for any White Sox success this year.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Sox 14 -9 in May . Axelrod 3 wins , Santiago 1 . Now don't get me wrong , it's apparent Santiago has the higher upside as a starter but there are legit reasons to start Axelrod and pitch Santiago in relief. Surely those reasons are not clueless as you keep suggesting. That is my only beef with you. It's never just about who is better than who. The team comes 1st.

Edited May 26, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[flavum]

It's as simple as this...

 

Axelrod has been in the rotation all season, and he hasn't pitched himself out of the role--and is probably a better pitcher as a starter.

 

Danks is off the DL, and makes 14.25 mil. He's got to start.

 

Santiago will probably be in the rotation in 2014 or later this season, but they need a second lefty in the pen right now. And he can still be very valuable coming out of the pen.

 

So until Axelrod starts having back-to-back bad starts, there's no reason to beef right now.

[Dick Allen]

It's as simple as this...

 

Axelrod has been in the rotation all season, and he hasn't pitched himself out of the role--and is probably a better pitcher as a starter.

 

Danks is off the DL, and makes 14.25 mil. He's got to start.

 

Santiago will probably be in the rotation in 2014 or later this season, but they need a second lefty in the pen right now. And he can still be very valuable coming out of the pen.

 

So until Axelrod starts having back-to-back bad starts, there's no reason to beef right now.

This is correct. I personally can't believe Axelrod is getting major league hitters out, but he is doing his job. The Sox need bullpen help. Santiago can handle that, and has shown he doesn't need long to get back to throwing 110 pitches a game.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Yes. The 1-4 record in his St decision clearly indicates he being in the rotation is and will be the reason for any White Sox success this year.

It was a joke on his completely inane comment that the Sox record has anything to do with this stupid decision.