Rebuild: So Far Better Than Could Have Hoped For

[Marty34]

Yeah, the Sox should have learned their lesson when they signed Dye as a 31 year old. Everyone stops hitting when they are 30.

 

ROFL, you really want Buehrle back?

[Y2Jimmy0]

I understand the point of the pro rebuilding people. I am usually one of them. Many of the posters on this board have convinced me however that this type of scenario will not work with the White Sox. They have great pitching. Sale/Quintana/Santiago is a great trio of LH starters. Peavy is cheap #2 starter in the AL. Danks is under contract and Erik Johnson is on his way. They have the pitching to compete. They need to add offense most likely to really be realistic about competing. Trading Rios and Peavy does this but it is so counterproductive at this point. Like others have mentioned I think they have enough to deal for a bat and sign 2 hitters next offseason. If they signed Granderson and Morales and then traded for another hitter you are in the mix with the pitching that you currently have. It's all about pitching. Most teams rebuild because they don't have pitching. The Sox pitching is plenty good enough to win. They just need to add bats and they will have some $$ to spend in the offseason.

[Marty34]

The problem is that people still think we can throw unlimited resources at the draft and international free agents which simply isn't the case. Losing teams still have an edge under the new CBA, but it's nowhere near what it used to be.

What I don't get is how people don't realize developing prospects takes a s***-load of time. It's going to take the players in a given draft class 3 to 6 years to be major league ready. You'll need multiple strong drafts to eventually form a young core of players that you can compete with. Assuming you have 4 strong drafts in a row, maybe this can be accomplished in 5 or 6 years. If you start relying on lots of high school players and Latin American free agents then it will likely take even longer. This assumes that not only do you hit on a ton of your draft picks, but you can also successfully develop them into good big leaguers.

 

I don't know when rebuilding suddenly got so cool, but going through one is painful. Summers filled with 90 loss seasons suck. Talk to some Cubs fans. The initial dream of a few years of losing followed by endless World Series championships is starting to fade away. Cubs fans are starting to realize this rebuilding is going to take longer than expected. Meanwhile, their fans don't want to go to games. People are already sick of losing and it's only year 2. Imagine what happens if guys like Almora and Baez flop. Tack on a few more years to the rebuilding effort. I'm sure Cubs fans will still be for the rebuilding at that point.

 

They're not going to deal Peavy and Rios for Single-A guys.

[Marty34]

I understand the point of the pro rebuilding people. I am usually one of them. Many of the posters on this board have convinced me however that this type of scenario will not work with the White Sox. They have great pitching. Sale/Quintana/Santiago is a great trio of LH starters. Peavy is cheap #2 starter in the AL. Danks is under contract and Erik Johnson is on his way. They have the pitching to compete. They need to add offense most likely to really be realistic about competing. Trading Rios and Peavy does this but it is so counterproductive at this point. Like others have mentioned I think they have enough to deal for a bat and sign 2 hitters next offseason. If they signed Granderson and Morales and then traded for another hitter you are in the mix with the pitching that you currently have. It's all about pitching. Most teams rebuild because they don't have pitching. The Sox pitching is plenty good enough to win. They just need to add bats and they will have some $$ to spend in the offseason.

 

Selling high on Peavy is a must, imo.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Selling high on Peavy is a must, imo.

 

 

I understand why you think that and if they got a couple of studs for him under team control for the next 6 years I would not be upset. Just don't think it's in the cards.

[Dick Allen]

ROFL, you really want Buehrle back?

Where do you get that? I love when you make stuff up to try to turn the attention away from some previous BS that you have posted. You are the one that said replace Peavy with a free agent. I've mentioned hitters. You are arguing with yourself.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Dick Allen

[cabiness42]

Selling high on Peavy is a must, imo.

 

I don't think the potential return for Peavy is what you expect it would be.

 

[Dick Allen]

They're not going to deal Peavy and Rios for Single-A guys.

What are they going to get for them? Let me guess....its not your job.

[Marty34]

I don't think the potential return for Peavy is what you expect it would be.

 

What makes you think that? 2 years left on an affordable deal.

[Marty34]

Where do you get that? I love when you make stuff up to try to turn the attention away from some previous BS that you have posted. You are the one that said replace Peavy with a free agent. I've mentioned hitters. You are arguing with yourself.

 

ROFL, you're the one bringing up 2005 and wanting to re-build like the Blue Jays. You write in general terms because when you're asked for specifics all you come up with are things like being for changes IF they help the team. Gee, thanks for THAT opinion.

[Balta1701]

ROFL, you really want Buehrle back?

Can he be had on a 2 year, $10 million deal with an option like Dye was? I'd take him for that.

[Balta1701]

What makes you think that? 2 years left on an affordable deal.

Actually, you know, a team like the Tigers or Indians might give up a lot to get Peavy right now. Ditto the Orioles or angels.

 

Because it would hurt a team in contention with them.

[cabiness42]

What makes you think that? 2 years left on an affordable deal.

 

Even with favorable contract terms, teams are becoming much more reluctant to trade top prospects, and even when you do make those trades, those prospects aren't sure things.

 

[Marty34]

Even with favorable contract terms, teams are becoming much more reluctant to trade top prospects, and even when you do make those trades, those prospects aren't sure things.

 

Jake Peavy isn't a sure thing either. If not a rebuild then the question is did the Sox screw up by not adding more this offseason? Looks like they may have.

[southsider2k5]

Actually, you know, a team like the Tigers or Indians might give up a lot to get Peavy right now. Ditto the Orioles or angels.

 

Because it would hurt a team in contention with them.

 

The Indians would kill for Jake Peavy with the offense they have now. Ditto Baltimore.

[Marty34]

Actually, you know, a team like the Tigers or Indians might give up a lot to get Peavy right now. Ditto the Orioles or angels.

 

Because it would hurt a team in contention with them.

 

Nationals maybe?

[cabiness42]

Nationals maybe?

 

Yeah, the Nationals love to make good deals with the Sox.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Just throwing this out there, as an example, let's say the Sox can find a deal out there for Peavy that nets them the following:

 

1) A a pretty decent starting SS who is MLB ready right this second. Doesn't need to be a star, but does need to be a capable #7, #8, or #2 hitter who can do some things with the bat fundamentally and can either (1 of the following 4) get on base; hit for average; hit for a low average but make up for some of it with power (muscle type power, not SLG% inflated by speed); or hit for a relatively low average without much raw power but with better than average speed/excellent baserunning which can lead to some SB, long singles into doubles, doubles into triples, etc. Defense is a must, as well as smarts & work ethic. You don't want a dumb, lazy SS nor do you want a butcher. You want the leader of your next middle infield.

 

2) Another MLB ready player, again, not necessarily an All-Star type. A solid player, probably undervalued, more like a DeAza type who is at least 1+ seasons from arbitration, and he can play just about any position. Just a solid player, probably someone who would be a starter right now if not blocked by a better player at his current position. Contenders with deep systems have these types. This is the kind of player that the team acquiring Peavy probably wouldn't care much about losing, but he'd fill a spot somewhere in the lineup and on the field at a very low cost, and would be the type of player you think you would be able to lock up through his arb years at a nice price after a good year. Solid mechanics, maybe not really toolsy but probably not a K machine either. Someone you feel comfortable penciling in for the next several years.

 

3) One excellent looking high ceiling SP prospect somewhere in the low minors who is probably under the radar because he's seen as too far away still, but is the type of talent that rockets up the prospect charts once he starts performing well in High-A or above. This has to be someone Coop has personally seen video on and likes; if Coop doesn't like him then no deal. But take a pitcher in the low minors, not a hitter, because we suck at developing position players.

 

4) Some throw-in with some upside that can be anything from an overachieving 4th OF type who is very close but could realistically perform his way into a starting role or someone with a lot of potential but serious flaws in the core of his game; either a wildcard impact guy or a pretty realistic roster piece that is just about ready right now.

 

I think it's pretty nuts to expect to "win" a Peavy deal, and targeting deals centered around prospects everyone is salivating over at the peaks of their value is a good way to end up with nothing 2 years down the road. But if you can turn Peavy around in a deal like this, get 2 more good core pieces for your MLB staff, then in a separate deal shed Alexei's contract, you can shed a whole lot of money while getting closer to the goal of becoming a buyer. I think it's best to look for surer things in a Peavy deal. For Crain, Thornton, etc. I think you're going to look for the impact types who are longshots but every now and then come through, the type of talent a team will give up because of the odds but not the talent. The Webb/Jaye return from Toronto is a pretty decent model I think, but in a perfect world we get our Casey Blake-for-Carlos Santana type of deal, especially since our players will be in more demand than that reliever whose name I already forgot and don't care about looking up. Unlikely, but the shot is worth it since we're dealing non-core pieces in the last years of their deals anyway.

 

And if Rios goes I just want to build a deal around a big bat. I don't care if he is the worst defensive player anyone has ever seen in their life, because DH is open. Build the deal around a masher who can club the ball out of any ballpark. Hopefully not another Josh Fields though. But masher + lots pitching would work for me. You can trade pitching for almost anything and that's the one thing we can do, develop pitching.

[Balta1701]

I think it's pretty nuts to expect to "win" a Peavy deal,

The general setup you gave isn't bad so far...but this is the wrong way to think.

 

We're a .500 team right now with an easy stretch coming up in our schedule and we're getting healthy. We've got a shot at being a competitive team this year.

 

If we cannot "Win" a deal on paper...there is no reason to sell off parts.

[cabiness42]

Just throwing this out there, as an example, let's say the Sox can find a deal out there for Peavy that nets them the following:

 

1) A a pretty decent starting SS who is MLB ready right this second. Doesn't need to be a star, but does need to be a capable #7, #8, or #2 hitter who can do some things with the bat fundamentally and can either (1 of the following 4) get on base; hit for average; hit for a low average but make up for some of it with power (muscle type power, not SLG% inflated by speed); or hit for a relatively low average without much raw power but with better than average speed/excellent baserunning which can lead to some SB, long singles into doubles, doubles into triples, etc. Defense is a must, as well as smarts & work ethic. You don't want a dumb, lazy SS nor do you want a butcher. You want the leader of your next middle infield.

 

2) Another MLB ready player, again, not necessarily an All-Star type. A solid player, probably undervalued, more like a DeAza type who is at least 1+ seasons from arbitration, and he can play just about any position. Just a solid player, probably someone who would be a starter right now if not blocked by a better player at his current position. Contenders with deep systems have these types. This is the kind of player that the team acquiring Peavy probably wouldn't care much about losing, but he'd fill a spot somewhere in the lineup and on the field at a very low cost, and would be the type of player you think you would be able to lock up through his arb years at a nice price after a good year. Solid mechanics, maybe not really toolsy but probably not a K machine either. Someone you feel comfortable penciling in for the next several years.

 

3) One excellent looking high ceiling SP prospect somewhere in the low minors who is probably under the radar because he's seen as too far away still, but is the type of talent that rockets up the prospect charts once he starts performing well in High-A or above. This has to be someone Coop has personally seen video on and likes; if Coop doesn't like him then no deal. But take a pitcher in the low minors, not a hitter, because we suck at developing position players.

 

4) Some throw-in with some upside that can be anything from an overachieving 4th OF type who is very close but could realistically perform his way into a starting role or someone with a lot of potential but serious flaws in the core of his game; either a wildcard impact guy or a pretty realistic roster piece that is just about ready right now.

 

I think it's pretty nuts to expect to "win" a Peavy deal, and targeting deals centered around prospects everyone is salivating over at the peaks of their value is a good way to end up with nothing 2 years down the road. But if you can turn Peavy around in a deal like this, get 2 more good core pieces for your MLB staff, then in a separate deal shed Alexei's contract, you can shed a whole lot of money while getting closer to the goal of becoming a buyer. I think it's best to look for surer things in a Peavy deal. For Crain, Thornton, etc. I think you're going to look for the impact types who are longshots but every now and then come through, the type of talent a team will give up because of the odds but not the talent. The Webb/Jaye return from Toronto is a pretty decent model I think, but in a perfect world we get our Casey Blake-for-Carlos Santana type of deal, especially since our players will be in more demand than that reliever whose name I already forgot and don't care about looking up. Unlikely, but the shot is worth it since we're dealing non-core pieces in the last years of their deals anyway.

 

And if Rios goes I just want to build a deal around a big bat. I don't care if he is the worst defensive player anyone has ever seen in their life, because DH is open. Build the deal around a masher who can club the ball out of any ballpark. Hopefully not another Josh Fields though. But masher + lots pitching would work for me. You can trade pitching for almost anything and that's the one thing we can do, develop pitching.

 

Yes, there's absolutely a deal like that out there--if you have an Xbox.

[Dick Allen]

ROFL, you're the one bringing up 2005 and wanting to re-build like the Blue Jays. You write in general terms because when you're asked for specifics all you come up with are things like being for changes IF they help the team. Gee, thanks for THAT opinion.

Learn to read Marty. I specifically said keep Peavy get bats this offseason. Pretty simple. You said get rid of pitching, the team's strength and sign a free agent to replace Peavy. One of us said to sign a free agent starter, you know, a guy like Buehrle, and it wasn't me. Now go back to posting how the Sox should guarantee they will be awful for the forseeable future so you will have something to moan about every summer.

 

You should also explain the logic to everyone about waiving Ramirez and putting Keppinger at SS. That right there is proof you want the White Sox to suck.

 

Trading Peavy makes no sense unless it is ridiculously in your favor. It's even more ridiculous than in 2005 when Soxtalk wanted the Sox to trade Contreras for AJ Burnett.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Marty34]

Learn to read Marty. I specifically said keep Peavy get bats this offseason. Pretty simple. You said get rid of pitching, the team's strength and sign a free agent to replace Peavy. One of us said to sign a free agent starter, you know, a guy like Buehrle, and it wasn't me. Now go back to posting how the Sox should guarantee they will be awful for the forseeable future so you will have something to moan about every summer.

 

You should also explain the logic to everyone about waiveing Ramirez and putting Keppinger at SS. That right there is proof you want the White Sox to suck.

 

Trading Peavy makes no sense unless it is ridiculously in your favor. It,s even more ridiculous than in 2005 when Soxtalk wanted the Sox to trade Contreras for AJ Burnett.

 

General terms again, Dick Allen. Which "bats" this offseason? You prefer taking on contracts like the Jays, how's that working out?? ROFL!

[Jake]

The only redeeming quality of potentially dealing Peavy is that we would be trading from organizational strength, so we wouldn't be likely to be screwed without him. It would be very surprising to me if we couldn't have a good rotation without him. With that said, it will almost certainly be better with him.

[cabiness42]

General terms again, Dick Allen. Which "bats" this offseason? You prefer taking on contracts like the Jays, how's that working out?? ROFL!

 

Taking on the right contracts can work out. I think the Sox might at some point have taken on the contract of a bat that is working out fairly well.

[Dick Allen]

General terms again, Dick Allen. Which "bats" this offseason? You prefer taking on contracts like the Jays, how's that working out?? ROFL!

I think I mentioned Morales and Granderson a couple of weeks ago when you asked. Who is the free agent pitcher you are signing to take Peavy's spot, and what are the prospects you are acquiring for Peavy and Rios? Its funny, the guy who refuses to answer specifics asks them even though they have already been answered.

 

The Red Sox won a couple of WS signing free agent bats. The Yankees did as well. Condolences on the Sox winning streak.